Dressage - rider position collectives - demystification needed please

[Marigold4]

Please could someone explain how rider position collectives work? Last year I was competing on a youngish horse and scoring 70s at intro and prelim. Horse was green but active forward paces, correct bend and obedient and mostly accurate tests. My rider position collective scores were on average over 5 tests = 7. Now riding another young horse at intro. Took her to her first test, first time indoors. Not happy. Pony called all the way round and was tense. Reasonably accurate test but hollow and not focussed. I realised it was not going to go well, so sat quietly in usual rider position rather than fighting her and decided to right it off to experience. Happy with comments and overall score but don't understand why I was given 5 for my rider position. Fully accept that I should be marked down for effectiveness and some other collectives, but why did the same rider position as normal get such low marks? I've seen the video and photos and don't think I'm sitting any differently. Are these marks automatically tied to your horse's behaviour - so if horse gets 7, you get 7; if horse gets 5, you get 5, regardless?

 

[Fanatical]

Sometimes you may get a slightly higher mark for coping with a bad situation. But in general, the rider mark can't be higher than the highest mark in the test. So if you didn't get 7 or above throughout the test, you can't score a 7 or above for your riding.

 

[Leandy]

I would expect that sitting passively would not get high marks. If the horse is not going well, ultimately this comes down to the rider. Whilst the balance of marks on this point should logically go for effectiveness, I'm pretty sure no judge will give good marks even for position if the rider is not influencing the horse to go correctly. If your pony was calling and tense then I would expect you were displaying contact issues and the contact down the rein must be linked to rider position I would expect. I don't think position is a static thing.

 

[madamebonnie]

Read carefully if it's riding position and effect of aids of if its split in two. If you sat there passively then your aids may not have been effective so then you lose marks. Your collectives on average should reflect your total mark.

Remember the judge is only seeing what you present in those 5 minutes. It's not to say if you can or should have done anything differently, especially when young horses are being tricky. Brush it off as a learning experience. Get some arena hires booked in for practise and show them what you can do on a good day.

 

[Marigold4]

TBF, I did say quietly and not picking a fight with my horse, not passively though. I did well to ride her morevor less accurately through her test. Thanks for your input folks. That clarifies things for me. I feel a bit disheartened though, I have to say. I was delighted to get 7.5 and even 8 for rider position in the past, but now I discover it has little to do with my position, just an average of how my horse is doing.

 

[McFluff]

The challenge is that the rider is intrinsically linked to the horse. The judge is judging you to set standards, so doesn’t know (or allow for) any challenges you may be dealing with.
A judge explained to me that they can’t (or shouldn’t) award higher than the highest score during the test. However there may be situations where you get lower than the test average if you didn’t appear to help a well trained horse (as an example).

 

[DabDab]

As above, but also you will generally get significantly marked down if the horse is noticeably 'disobedient' for more than a moment in time, on the basis that you've exhibited no effectiveness as a rider to correct it. So if your horse is consistently behind the leg, against the rein, inaccurate in its movements, tense, rushing round calling etc.
Even though just sitting quietly on a green horse may be absolutely the best thing to do, it means that you show very little to award marks for other than staying on board and steering! It's one of those things with green horses - some make it easy to pick up good rider marks and some make it impossible for a time.

 

[Marigold4]

Thanks all. Some helpful explanations here. I've taken her back to the indoor arena a couple of times and she still thinks being in there on her own is the pits! Silly horse. She's perfect out hacking on her own but inside on her own is apparently life-threatening and concentrating on what she's being asked to do is an impossibility. Repetition, time and empathy will no doubt solve it eventually.

 

[milliepops]

The challenge is that the rider is intrinsically linked to the horse. The judge is judging you to set standards, so doesn’t know (or allow for) any challenges you may be dealing with.
A judge explained to me that they can’t (or shouldn’t) award higher than the highest score during the test. However there may be situations where you get lower than the test average if you didn’t appear to help a well trained horse (as an example).

yup this. Same applies to all the collectives, it's rare that you would get a higher collective mark for any of the indicators than the highest score achieved for the movements.
This direct link is one of the reasons why there has been some people suggesting the collectives should be done away with, at FEI levels they are already becoming less influential as the double coefficient has been removed for the paces and impulsion scores.

 

[Marigold4]

Thanks. I think I would agree with getting rid of collectives then. Things like suppleness and obedience can be taken into account for the individual movements. If collectives are directly linked to how the individual movements have gone, then they seem a bit of a waste of time?

 

[madamebonnie]

Thanks all. Some helpful explanations here. I've taken her back to the indoor arena a couple of times and she still thinks being in there on her own is the pits! Silly horse. She's perfect out hacking on her own but inside on her own is apparently life-threatening and concentrating on what she's being asked to do is an impossibility. Repetition, time and empathy will no doubt solve it eventually.

Can you hire a venue where you can flit between two arenas? Or when you're schooling at home have people come and leave?

She might prefer a venue where they run two arena's side by side?

In the mean time get yourself a dressage online entry, then you can have a true reflection in what you're working on at home. It can be really tough when you're at the stage where you're just trying to get them to relax and behave at shows. You spend a while throwing away marks and scores but when you can add in the work you show at home the patience will pay off.

 

[milliepops]

Thanks. I think I would agree with getting rid of collectives then. Things like suppleness and obedience can be taken into account for the individual movements. If collectives are directly linked to how the individual movements have gone, then they seem a bit of a waste of time?

nothing for it but to compete in the FEI classes then when run as normal BD shows they still have the collectives as mentioned above but the newest FEI versions only include a rider mark, which I understand the rationale for keeping. I expect over time that might filter down through the national levels too.

 

[Marigold4]

I like the idea of the online dressage! There is an outdoor school near us where she can see other horses so she'll probably settle better. I think I might prefer it too! I always feel a misfit - my horses are barefoot, no flash nosebands, no spurs, no bling, not btv. I feel out of place. I like to compete and have something to aim at but increasingly not enjoying dressage even if we win.

 

[madamebonnie]

I like the idea of the online dressage! There is an outdoor school near us where she can see other horses so she'll probably settle better. I think I might prefer it too! I always feel a misfit - my horses are barefoot, no flash nosebands, no spurs, no bling, not btv. I feel out of place. I like to compete and have something to aim at but increasingly not enjoying dressage even if we win.

Have you heard of Quest Club run by BD? It's a great way to get started with 'proper' dressage. Super friendly competitions, relaxed atmosphere as you don't have to wear competing gear and a real range of horses and riders. I compete part of a team we have: IDxTB (mine), Coloured sports horse. Traditional cob (barefoot) and Eventer. Not a flash in sight It's much more consistent judging as they use proper judges compared to unaffiliated.

 

[Marigold4]

Have you heard of Quest Club run by BD? It's a great way to get started with 'proper' dressage. Super friendly competitions, relaxed atmosphere as you don't have to wear competing gear and a real range of horses and riders. I compete part of a team we have: IDxTB (mine), Coloured sports horse. Traditional cob (barefoot) and Eventer. Not a flash in sight It's much more consistent judging as they use proper judges compared to unaffiliated.

I had a look to see where these are held and there are several venues about 90 mins away, but none nearer. Think I will have to wait till she's a bit more grown up to go that far, but definitely a thought for the future.

 

[greybadger19]

I like the idea of the online dressage! There is an outdoor school near us where she can see other horses so she'll probably settle better. I think I might prefer it too! I always feel a misfit - my horses are barefoot, no flash nosebands, no spurs, no bling, not btv. I feel out of place. I like to compete and have something to aim at but increasingly not enjoying dressage even if we win.

Ignore your inner voice:

1. Barefoot. Who cares? Nobody's looking at what your horse does or doesn't have on its feet.
2. No flash noseband. Good. Nobody's looking at it anyway, despite correctness of not wearing one.
3. No spurs. Cool. Doesn't matter. People aren't looking at your heels. They're riding their own horses,
4. No bling. Thank ****.

Chill out and ride your horses!

 

[teddypops]

I like the idea of the online dressage! There is an outdoor school near us where she can see other horses so she'll probably settle better. I think I might prefer it too! I always feel a misfit - my horses are barefoot, no flash nosebands, no spurs, no bling, not btv. I feel out of place. I like to compete and have something to aim at but increasingly not enjoying dressage even if we win.

I have no spurs, no flash nose bands, no flash kit, I ride ponies. Some are shod, some not but that’s not important. We still do well when we compete. It’s about training, not equipment.

 

[Marigold4]

Ignore your inner voice:

1. Barefoot. Who cares? Nobody's looking at what your horse does or doesn't have on its feet.
2. No flash noseband. Good. Nobody's looking at it anyway, despite correctness of not wearing one.
3. No spurs. Cool. Doesn't matter. People aren't looking at your heels. They're riding their own horses,
4. No bling. Thank ****.

Chill out and ride your horses!

I have no spurs, no flash nose bands, no flash kit, I ride ponies. Some are shod, some not but that’s not important. We still do well when we compete. It’s about training, not equipment.

Ignore your inner voice:

1. Barefoot. Who cares? Nobody's looking at what your horse does or doesn't have on its feet.
2. No flash noseband. Good. Nobody's looking at it anyway, despite correctness of not wearing one.
3. No spurs. Cool. Doesn't matter. People aren't looking at your heels. They're riding their own horses,
4. No bling. Thank ****.

Chill out and ride your horses!

Ma

I have no spurs, no flash nose bands, no flash kit, I ride ponies. Some are shod, some not but that’s not important. We still do well when we compete. It’s about training, not equipment.

Maybe it's just where I do my dressage. There is definitely a slightly patronising attitude if you're not on a flash warmblood and wearing all the gear.

 

[Red-1]

Ma

Maybe it's just where I do my dressage. There is definitely a slightly patronising attitude if you're not on a flash warmblood and wearing all the gear.

I have done BD on a couple of barefoot horses, in fact some high up horses are barefoot too. I can't think anyone has noticed weather my horse is barefoot or not.

I don't use a flash. I did once have a rude competitor suggest OH 'try one' for his horse when his tongue was out (Charlie Horse not OH!). I feel sorry for their horse TBH all strapped shut. No one has ever said anything to me.

I don't have spurs and only recently started to carry a whip (for bend powered by back leg engagement, she understands better if I can tap the leg she needs to remember).

I don't plait except for regionals. I did once have a trainer tell me I was letting my horse down by not plaiting. This was after I had seen her be rather sharp with her horse with both whip and bit so I just thought "Meh" and have not been back there. I don't think my horse cares.

I think it is quite common to look at the other competitors and feel a little intimidated. I know I commonly do, then often go and win!

I just do my thing to have a nice day out with my horses.

 

[Marigold4]

I have done BD on a couple of barefoot horses, in fact some high up horses are barefoot too. I can't think anyone has noticed weather my horse is barefoot or not.

I don't use a flash. I did once have a rude competitor suggest OH 'try one' for his horse when his tongue was out (Charlie Horse not OH!). I feel sorry for their horse TBH all strapped shut. No one has ever said anything to me.

I don't have spurs and only recently started to carry a whip (for bend powered by back leg engagement, she understands better if I can tap the leg she needs to remember).

I don't plait except for regionals. I did once have a trainer tell me I was letting my horse down by not plaiting. This was after I had seen her be rather sharp with her horse with both whip and bit so I just thought "Meh" and have not been back there. I don't think my horse cares.

I think it is quite common to look at the other competitors and feel a little intimidated. I know I commonly do, then often go and win!

I just do my thing to have a nice day out with my horses.

I agree with everything you say and your approach to your horse is very much my approach. I just don't seem to be having a "fun day out" anymore. When I see some younger riders spurring their horses continually, horses' mouths strapped shut, leaning back against their hands and horses in an artificial frame, it makes me sad for these animals and ruins my day. I'm in my fifties and a product of the 70s when we rode in a looser frame and it was OK for your horse to be in front of the vertical for some of the time. Maybe it's just me but when did it become an obsession to have your horse's nose on its chest?? Sorry - turned into a bit of a rant!

 

[Orangehorse]

I wouldn't get too hung up on the marks from one test. I know that if you are going to the same venues you are always going to be having the same judge, some judges will like you, others won't, ditto the sort of horse you are riding. But the law of averages kicks in, some you win, some you lose.

If things don't improve then you should discuss the remarks on the sheet with your instructor and try to see if there is something you can do. The frustration is that we can all do wonderful work at home and then in the competition it goes out of the window and it is not always the rider!

 

[Marigold4]

Fully in agreement with the marks for the movements just wasn't sure how far rider position collective was linked to movements scores. It wasn't a good test, horse was green and freaking out at being on its own. On my other horse I score high 60s and 70s.