Dressage/Schooling help?

ktj1891

ktj1891

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I have an ex racer that I have had for 4 years now. Generally in tests we get reasonable marks around mid 60s however, most comments we get are he needs to be more supple/forward and consistent in the contact.

At home I find he tends to argue more when I try and collect him up a bit more into a higher frame especially after I have let him down to have a walk/stretch. Also, when I do collect him up he tends to back off and not travel forwards. (He is very lazy and backwards anyways), he doesn't take me forwards in flat or jumping.

So when I school at home I can usually get him going well and by the end of the session all looks a bit better however, when I take him out competing and I get in the arena he REALLY backs off and falls off my legs and I end up literally booting him around the test.

So what can I do to improve this, I was also thinking maybe a bit change may help as well if anyone has any suggestions as I'm not one to really fiddle with bits?

I went to dressage on Friday just gone and I got 63.25% in BE90 Test 92 and 60.25% in BE Novice test 112.

I do have an 2 instructors and I have 1 flat lesson and 1 jump lesson a month. I will ask their opinions on my next lessons too. If you want any videos I can add links too.
 
I only watched the first video but I think he looks a lovely sweet obedient chap, just a little flat at times. One thing I noticed is (like me!) you look like you have a bit of a tendency to nag with your legs? It might just be test nerves but if you are nagging him lots he might just be switching off? Might be worth working on keeping your lower legs stiller and then using them really definitively when you want him more forwards. Sometimes a sharp pony club kick can do wonders! With my old boy I found I needed to throw away a couple of tests and not worry about marks so that I could teach him my leg on really meant I wanted him forwards and that just because we were at a show it didn't mean he could ignore me!

Other than that lots and lots of transitions, circles, leg yield would help you both.
 
He is sweet and obedient but I can see why he will have problems coming into a more uphill frame from where he was last year, I would want him moving more in front of the leg, especially in canter, before even thinking of where his head is, plenty of work on a long, not loose, rein, encouraging him to step under more and flex laterally, only once he is taking more weight on his hind leg and pushing from behind will he be able to carry himself uphill, by "collecting him up" he will naturally drop even more behind you especially if he is inclined to be lazy.

The ex racehorse I have here benefits from raised poles fairly close together to get him in the air more, loads of slow but energetic trotting while being asked to bend laterally with some transitions within the trot, combined with loads of transitions in and out of walk to help the hind leg engage more, the rider being encouraged to do as little as possible with the hand to keep him taking her forward, he pokes his nose very slightly in front of the vertical when he is really starting to work from behind and this is encouraged as it allows him to lift his shoulders rather than drop into a pretty frame which he finds fairly easy.
 
dressage_diva said:
I only watched the first video but I think he looks a lovely sweet obedient chap, just a little flat at times. One thing I noticed is (like me!) you look like you have a bit of a tendency to nag with your legs? It might just be test nerves but if you are nagging him lots he might just be switching off? Might be worth working on keeping your lower legs stiller and then using them really definitively when you want him more forwards. Sometimes a sharp pony club kick can do wonders! With my old boy I found I needed to throw away a couple of tests and not worry about marks so that I could teach him my leg on really meant I wanted him forwards and that just because we were at a show it didn't mean he could ignore me!

Other than that lots and lots of transitions, circles, leg yield would help you both.
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Yes I agree he is generally very sweet and tries for me and I know he doesn't find the work easy. I have had comments about the flat paces in the canter before too and worked on it in my lessons by touching him on the bum with the whip to get him to bounce more plus 10m circles. I definitely nag with my legs and hands so its something I do need to work on.

I do tonnes of trying to get him off my leg including big kick and touch with whip at same time and then going to kick again and seeing if he shoots forward to see if he is listening, I do lots of pushing him forwards in the pace and then bringing him back i.e. extended trot and back to collected etc and I also do a lot of changes in transitions. All helps but as soon as you collect him back up again or lateral or anything he generally finds difficult he falls off my leg!
 
be positive said:
He is sweet and obedient but I can see why he will have problems coming into a more uphill frame from where he was last year, I would want him moving more in front of the leg, especially in canter, before even thinking of where his head is, plenty of work on a long, not loose, rein, encouraging him to step under more and flex laterally, only once he is taking more weight on his hind leg and pushing from behind will he be able to carry himself uphill, by "collecting him up" he will naturally drop even more behind you especially if he is inclined to be lazy.

The ex racehorse I have here benefits from raised poles fairly close together to get him in the air more, loads of slow but energetic trotting while being asked to bend laterally with some transitions within the trot, combined with loads of transitions in and out of walk to help the hind leg engage more, the rider being encouraged to do as little as possible with the hand to keep him taking her forward, he pokes his nose very slightly in front of the vertical when he is really starting to work from behind and this is encouraged as it allows him to lift his shoulders rather than drop into a pretty frame which he finds fairly easy.
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Again I agree he is quite behind in the canter and trot its hard however to know when I am pushing him out of his normal rhythm?

I agree and think for now maybe just getting him moving forwards and not worrying about where his head is will be the answer. What do you mean by flex laterally? Also I do try and do as much pole work as I can/have time to fit in. We have some cavaletti at my yard now too and I have used that once so far!
 
ktj1891 said:
Yes I agree he is generally very sweet and tries for me and I know he doesn't find the work easy. I have had comments about the flat paces in the canter before too and worked on it in my lessons by touching him on the bum with the whip to get him to bounce more plus 10m circles. I definitely nag with my legs and hands so its something I do need to work on.

I do tonnes of trying to get him off my leg including big kick and touch with whip at same time and then going to kick again and seeing if he shoots forward to see if he is listening, I do lots of pushing him forwards in the pace and then bringing him back i.e. extended trot and back to collected etc and I also do a lot of changes in transitions. All helps but as soon as you collect him back up again or lateral or anything he generally finds difficult he falls off my leg!
Click to expand...

How long have you been schooling him regularly? He might not just have the strength behind to sit and explains why he finds collection difficult. I agree with the other poster that for the moment I wouldn't worry about the front end or trying to collect him too much. You need to have impulsion and desire to move forwards before you collect.

I would just spend the time getting him thinking forwards all the time and never letting him drop behind the leg. If anything he needs more impulsiveness before he should be collecting (collection is about containing the energy not slowing it down). Keep your hands quiet and soft and work on getting him really forwards at all times and never let him drop behind your leg. Charlotte Du Jardin has some great saying: 1) lazy horses need to learn to work with your leg off (sharp horses need to learn to accept your leg) and 2) your hands want to push your horse to the bit, not pull back.

I would just do lots and lots of transitions - if you are working large you want to be doing say 4 each long side. Apologies if you already know this but for years I thought I was doing lots of transitions but it turned out my idea of lots was not the same as everyone else ideas of lots. In trot do lots of half halts almost bringing him back to walk and at the moment he is about to walk send him forwards - don't think of this as collection and don't restrict him with your hands too much (just keep them soft). Make sure you really are allowing him forwards with your hands so he doesn't feel like you are blocking him. The softness in front will come of its own accord from lots of transitions, circles (I particularly like satellite circles), serpentinesnand basic lateral work. Make sure you aren't over working him in the school either - better to have shorter sessions where he is really forwards than trying to ask too much too soon.

You could consider riding him in some mild Spurs to get that sharp response, but I wouldn't want to try that until I'd had tried consistently to teach the horse it has to go forwards from my leg instantly (i know firsthand how easy it is to sometimes accept a slightly sluggish transition but each time you accept it the horse thinks that is what is required).

Is his general fitness good too? What is he like out hacking? Lots of hill work will help strengthen him behind the saddle too which will also help.

What bit are you riding him in and have you tried him in anything else? I'm not a believer in changing bits for the sake of it, but some horses do find certain bits a bit sharp and don't give them the confidence to travel forwards so it might be worth playing around with bits if you still don't feel he is improving. But I think that lots of schooling should help you.
 
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He looks a little downhill, and he's definitely backing off the bit (also not consistently tracking up in trot), although he looks a nice enough chap personality-wise.

As far as the downhill paces are concerned, what I'd suggest to help strengthen up his back and hindquarters to help him lift up in front is, if possible, lunging him on a slope - start out nice and steady, keep your sessions short, and insist on a consistent pace all the way around the circle (so he has to find his balance up, down, and across the slope). Raised poles, used sparingly, may also be a useful tool for helping him lift his front end, and it might be an idea to do some carrot stretches and belly lifts in the stable (it's easy to find how-to guides for these on google if you aren't already familiar with them). Other than that, I second everyone else's advice on transitions - lots of them, and make sure they're forwards and balanced!

With how much he's backing off the bit, I'd personally be tempted to try something a little stiller - maybe an eggbutt rather than a loose ring, and you could even consider a mullen mouthpiece - as a lot of horses that back off the bit go up into the bridle better in something that doesn't move as much. Ask your instructor about your hands in your next flatwork lesson - they don't look awful or anything, but it's always good to have a professional opinion, especially when your horse tends to go a little behind the bit.

On a slightly side note, your spurs and the bottom of your saddlecloth are sitting at a very similar height, and I do wonder whether there's a possibility of interference there. Might be worth getting someone who's physically there to have a quick squint, just in case.
 
dressage_diva said:
How long have you been schooling him regularly? He might not just have the strength behind to sit and explains why he finds collection difficult. I agree with the other poster that for the moment I wouldn't worry about the front end or trying to collect him too much. You need to have impulsion and desire to move forwards before you collect.

I would just spend the time getting him thinking forwards all the time and never letting him drop behind the leg. If anything he needs more impulsiveness before he should be collecting (collection is about containing the energy not slowing it down). Keep your hands quiet and soft and work on getting him really forwards at all times and never let him drop behind your leg. Charlotte Du Jardin has some great saying: 1) lazy horses need to learn to work with your leg off (sharp horses need to learn to accept your leg) and 2) your hands want to push your horse to the bit, not pull back.

I would just do lots and lots of transitions - if you are working large you want to be doing say 4 each long side. Apologies if you already know this but for years I thought I was doing lots of transitions but it turned out my idea of lots was not the same as everyone else ideas of lots. In trot do lots of half halts almost bringing him back to walk and at the moment he is about to walk send him forwards - don't think of this as collection and don't restrict him with your hands too much (just keep them soft). Make sure you really are allowing him forwards with your hands so he doesn't feel like you are blocking him. The softness in front will come of its own accord from lots of transitions, circles (I particularly like satellite circles), serpentinesnand basic lateral work. Make sure you aren't over working him in the school either - better to have shorter sessions where he is really forwards than trying to ask too much too soon.

You could consider riding him in some mild Spurs to get that sharp response, but I wouldn't want to try that until I'd had tried consistently to teach the horse it has to go forwards from my leg instantly (i know firsthand how easy it is to sometimes accept a slightly sluggish transition but each time you accept it the horse thinks that is what is required).

Is his general fitness good too? What is he like out hacking? Lots of hill work will help strengthen him behind the saddle too which will also help.

What bit are you riding him in and have you tried him in anything else? I'm not a believer in changing bits for the sake of it, but some horses do find certain bits a bit sharp and don't give them the confidence to travel forwards so it might be worth playing around with bits if you still don't feel he is improving. But I think that lots of schooling should help you.
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He is generally schooled 2-3 times a week max 30 mins. He is fairly fit as ridden 5-6 days a week. However he does get tired in schooling then resorts to throwing his head around the place.

Instructor said same thing so I do try to keep my leg off after he's had a swift kick and tap. Although again he drops off. I think I will really work at keeping him forwards and doing lots of transitions over the next few weeks and see how he progresses. I do use Spurs but I alternate riding in them!

We have gallops and 2 on hills so will start walking him up them etc. He hacks out a fair bit too although not recently. He's lazy hacking too, pretty much laid back in all aspects. Perks up for a gallop though!

He's in a loose ring single jointed snaffle always been in one although the mouthpiece is now thinner than it used to be and he is in a loose ring jointed sweet iron snaffle for jumping.
 
pennandh said:
He looks a little downhill, and he's definitely backing off the bit (also not consistently tracking up in trot), although he looks a nice enough chap personality-wise.

As far as the downhill paces are concerned, what I'd suggest to help strengthen up his back and hindquarters to help him lift up in front is, if possible, lunging him on a slope - start out nice and steady, keep your sessions short, and insist on a consistent pace all the way around the circle (so he has to find his balance up, down, and across the slope). Raised poles, used sparingly, may also be a useful tool for helping him lift his front end, and it might be an idea to do some carrot stretches and belly lifts in the stable (it's easy to find how-to guides for these on google if you aren't already familiar with them). Other than that, I second everyone else's advice on transitions - lots of them, and make sure they're forwards and balanced!

With how much he's backing off the bit, I'd personally be tempted to try something a little stiller - maybe an eggbutt rather than a loose ring, and you could even consider a mullen mouthpiece - as a lot of horses that back off the bit go up into the bridle better in something that doesn't move as much. Ask your instructor about your hands in your next flatwork lesson - they don't look awful or anything, but it's always good to have a professional opinion, especially when your horse tends to go a little behind the bit.

On a slightly side note, your spurs and the bottom of your saddlecloth are sitting at a very similar height, and I do wonder whether there's a possibility of interference there. Might be worth getting someone who's physically there to have a quick squint, just in case.
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I could lunge on a slope however I tend to prefer riding. He does his stretches before/after work which he loves ��

I will look at trying an eggbutt and research a Mullen. I am also going to borrow my friends micklem and see what he's like in that.
 
I have an ex racehorse too, and he is also the lazy type! So I know your pain, and I know how easy it is for them to get flat/downhill. They also have long necks which can be very tricky to ride, they are great at curling and false frames.

Your videos were really helpful, he goes a lot better than I was expecting! In fact yours looks better into the contact than mine (mine is really fussy and I have to be careful about not letting him curl) so that will make your life easier down the line. Mine goes best in plastic eggbutt snaffles, might be worth a try?

Things that may help -

- I do most of my schooling out on hacks, it's easier to get them thinking forward.

- Try doing 20m circles in canter, do half in medium and the other half in working. When you transition back into working, really put your leg on. Imagine you are keeping the hind legs in medium canter, but picking the front end up into working. Just a mental image that may help you engage his hindquarters more.

- I agree changing your position slightly might help - you want your hands a little more in front of you and stiller. Maybe try shortening your stirrups a hole? You kind of want to imagine that you are riding up to your hands, rather than holding him in an outline.

- Polework/hillwork/transitions etc will all help him sit back and get more expressive paces. With a lazy one I would be wanting to do a transition every ten strides.

- I think getting him off of your seat a bit more will help. Can you ride upwards and downwards transitions without using your reins or legs? Give it a go, you might be surprised. You really shouldn't be needing to kick, especially with spurs. Give him a little whisper of a leg aid, and escalate from there if he doesn't respond. I'm sure he will get more responsive very quickly, though you do have to be careful not to shut down the forward. I think perhaps if you have some dressage or lunge lessons this will help, because they can only go off light aids when there isn't 'background noise'.

I honestly wouldn't worry yet, yours is on the right track and as he gets stronger and learns more about half halts it will all suddenly come together. He looks nice and relaxed so at this stage you can afford to get him a bit more excited. (through transitions, walk to canter is a good one, as is medium canter)
 
I really feel for you as my boy was exactly exactly the same as yours!
I ended up selling him as my passion is dressage and he clearly didn't enjoy it but the new owner is doing amazing things with him and these are the two things that helped them:
1. Getting him mega mega fit. And I mean like event horse fit. Whether you have to hire the gallops or go on really long hacks with lots of trotting.

2. Vary his training. Do more different things that they enjoy. Row used to really like jumping but it really wasn't my thing but with his new owner he literally flies, looks much happier and now enjoys the more "boring" work better.

A lot of what other posters have said sounds all too familiar to what I was being told 3 years ago and I really sympathise as its so difficult. Especially with a backward horse.
Contact wise, have you tried a drop noseband? This alone mega helped most horses I had contact issues with
 
ktj1891 said:
At home I find he tends to argue more when I try and collect him up a bit more into a higher frame especially after I have let him down to have a walk/stretch. Also, when I do collect him up he tends to back off and not travel forwards. (He is very lazy and backwards anyways), he doesn't take me forwards in flat or jumping.
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Just had a quick look and will throw a few comments out:
- Lovely combination that just needs some tweaking.
- In the first video where the horse is a little behind you when you rise your upper body is behind the movement, meaning that at the highest point of the rise your shoulders are behind your hips. Try bringing your upper body forwards a little. It was better after the canter.
- Thoroughbreds can do dressage and can excel. However it takes a long time to get the body strong enough to sit behind.
- Following on from that don't confuse aerobic fitness to muscular fitness - they are different and you need both.
- The frame in the test is not a longer lower frame; its fine. If the horse is not the most forwards and you have to build up more strength you bring this shorter and higher and you will block and switch off the engine. The frame should always be relating to how much looseness and forwards you have.
- The bit is fine; work the horse.
- Forwardness is needed but reaction to your leg is key. Don't try and go faster. Sometimes use the exercise of a little slower then react to the leg to go and then slower again. Don't push the horse out of the natural pace.
Just some quick thoughts...Good luck
 
Simon Battram said:
Just had a quick look and will throw a few comments out:
- Lovely combination that just needs some tweaking.
- In the first video where the horse is a little behind you when you rise your upper body is behind the movement, meaning that at the highest point of the rise your shoulders are behind your hips. Try bringing your upper body forwards a little. It was better after the canter.
- Thoroughbreds can do dressage and can excel. However it takes a long time to get the body strong enough to sit behind.
- Following on from that don't confuse aerobic fitness to muscular fitness - they are different and you need both.
- The frame in the test is not a longer lower frame; its fine. If the horse is not the most forwards and you have to build up more strength you bring this shorter and higher and you will block and switch off the engine. The frame should always be relating to how much looseness and forwards you have.
- The bit is fine; work the horse.
- Forwardness is needed but reaction to your leg is key. Don't try and go faster. Sometimes use the exercise of a little slower then react to the leg to go and then slower again. Don't push the horse out of the natural pace.
Just some quick thoughts...Good luck
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Thankyou for this, all points noted. Yeah I agree he is fairly fit cardio wise but does get muscle tired in the school. Hopefully I will be able to get back on board Thursday and work on all the suggestions. I have another dressage outing on 12th March so hoping for some improved tests!
 
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