Dumbfounded after osteo visit.

[applecart14]

Hi people. Im a bit in shock really so I hope this makes sense. I had the vet out last week for a clearly sore back on my ex racer Tb (rising 7), and she diagnosed pain in the lumbar region but no lameness and referred me to the osteopath. He came this morning.

He started by examining his scrotal area and found there was a mass which he thinks is the result of my chap being poorly castrated. He suggests the testicle was removed too low down, leaving the 'cord' present and the scarring resulting from the castration has formed a mass. He can feel a kind of stump. (He initially thought it was a testicle, but then after further exam he said no.) He says this is the reason why he didn't pass muster as a steeplechaser as he can't extend his hind legs behind him in jumping, is also the reason why he drags his right hind leg and trips over his own left foot frequently. According to him, there is little to be done as any operation would be extremely tricky, require a specialist, is rare and the prognosis is poor. He wants me to work him on the lunge with a really really short rein (head on chest sort of thing), which is supposed to help his abdominal muscles. And ride him anyway.

Next step for me I suppose is to get the vet back to confirm this diagnosis with a scan or something.

Still reeling from this. Anyone heard of anything like this before?

I have heard that 'beans' can cause problems for geldings and make them appear lame due to discomfort from that area, so I can see how what your osteopath has described as a mass would impact on your horses way of going. I am sure the vet will be able to get this clarified for you.

For those that have never heard of beans they are a build up of smegma and other material (shavings, dirt, dust etc) that form in the horses sheath next to its uretha. My vet took my horses bean out - it was huge, the size of a 2p piece and about 4mm depth. He said it was the biggest he had ever seen! It must have been very uncomfortable for him. I think he may have another one now, as he has started making the 'whoosing' noise normally associated with gunk in that area - I noticed it last night when I lunged him.

 

[Nakipa]

Whereabouts in france are you? I can recommend a brilliant vet if you are in the Southwest.

 

[Frenchmade]

Whereabouts in france are you? I can recommend a brilliant vet if you are in the Southwest.

Thanks Nakipa but Im in the south east. The Var. But I feel I've made some progress today. I told the equestrian centre owner (French)( where I keep my horse), that I rang the vet but couldn't understand her and she volunteered to call the vet, in my presence, and ask lots of relevant questions for me, then try and put it into words I could understand. Very kind of her. So, the end result is, the vet is coming out to palpate my horse and see what the situation is, then discuss it with me in person. There is a highly thought of vet/equine clinic in Aix en Provence, not too far away, which my vet recommends as being excellent if surgery is the preferred option. So now we're getting somewhere.

The vet did however say, when I asked her to come out and see him, that it's not a matter of urgency. Well yes, I do realise that, but once you know your horse has something like this, you want to get it sorted ASAP! As if Im just going to forget about it for a few months! Strange people!Anyway, she's coming in about a week to 10 days.

Might sleep better tonight.

 

[Frenchmade]

I have heard that 'beans' can cause problems for geldings and make them appear lame due to discomfort from that area, so I can see how what your osteopath has described as a mass would impact on your horses way of going. I am sure the vet will be able to get this clarified for you.

For those that have never heard of beans they are a build up of smegma and other material (shavings, dirt, dust etc) that form in the horses sheath next to its uretha. My vet took my horses bean out - it was huge, the size of a 2p piece and about 4mm depth. He said it was the biggest he had ever seen! It must have been very uncomfortable for him. I think he may have another one now, as he has started making the 'whoosing' noise normally associated with gunk in that area - I noticed it last night when I lunged him.

Hi yes I've heard of this before but never heard of anyone having it done. A previous gelding of mine always made that noise when his sheath needed a good clean. May mention it to the vet while she's 'down there'.

 

[Frenchmade]

Hi,
All I can add is that when my vet came out to feel an odd lump on a horse she said It feels like...' and then slapped her wrist and said' my vet teacher would have said you can't see with your hands....scan it '! And bless her she did....and it turned out to be a benign cyst...get the vet out to scan it then you will know what you are dealing with....me thinks osteo didn't have a clue and tried to give you an answer just because there was a fee involved....but them I am a sceptic
Best of luck
Bryndu

Apparently a scan won't provide any answers, according to the conversation with the vet today. She's going to palpate. So we'll see.

 

[Frenchmade]

The vet hasn't been yet, she said either today or Thursday so still in a state of anxiety here. While waiting, I've been reading up on cervical arthritis. The symptoms seem to be the same. Tripping, lack of hind engagement, dragging feet, intermittent problems, no sign of lameness. What they do say is absolutely NO chiropractic treatment! So if it's this causing the problem, then getting osteo treatment was totally the wrong thing to do. I lunged him today and he was much much worse. I used the bungee, very loosely, so he could still lift his head, and he tripped up at least 10 times in 20 minutes and at one point both hind legs seemed to buckle. I stopped working him. Im beginning to believe this is not a castration issue at all. If it were, it wouldn't be suddenly much worse. At the very least, this needs to be examined and eliminated before anyone even thinks of operating on him for the botched castration. What is the method used for diagnosing arthritis? Xray? Is it a hospital job to xray the neck/back? I am getting armed for the vet's visit so any help much appreciated. Thanks for reading. Mince pie?

 

[planete]

I have just looked up the equine vet. clinic in Aix. Is it the one at La Trevaresse? They seem to go to clients for pre purchase vettings. Can you find out if somebody would come out to your horse if you requested a second opinion? Your vet may feel a bit miffed when you ask for a second opinion but she does not seem to have a clue.

 

[Frenchmade]

I have just looked up the equine vet. clinic in Aix. Is it the one at La Trevaresse? They seem to go to clients for pre purchase vettings. Can you find out if somebody would come out to your horse if you requested a second opinion? Your vet may feel a bit miffed when you ask for a second opinion but she does not seem to have a clue.

I have no experience of the vet clinic in Aix so I don't know if that's the one. Perhaps I should be looking them up too. I will! I have it in mind that I will get a second opinion. I am going to see what this current vet has to say at the next visit, which looks like it will be on Thursday. I am going to put her through the mill with questions which I've made a list of. If she doesn't come up to scratch then I have already thought about ringing the clinic and asking if they can either come out, or I take him to them. One way or another I will get someone competent to see him. Your idea of asking in advance is a good one. I will ask the YO tomorrow for the telephone number of the clinic and ring them myself. Trouble is, my current vet is regarded as the best in the region. That's not saying much.

 

[Frenchmade]

Yes, Planete, that's the clinic I presume because I was told the vet's name was Dr Martin. He's there. So, after the vets visit I will give him a ring. He's trained in the USA so will be fluent in English. Useful!!

 

[Frenchmade]

No, I'll ring tomorrow, before the vet visits. Armed!

 

[foxy1]

My youngster had a cyst on his castration site, it felt a bit like a testicle but when scanned the vet could see it wasn't! It was easily surgically removed and has caused him no issues.

 

[Mr Clovis]

Sounds like funiculitis. I have a gelding with this problem, he responded well to a course of antibiotics and , touch wood, he has been fine since so I didn't go ahead with surgery. I don't know if it would cause the uncoordination you discribe. Mine chap was stiff in his hinds and showed mild colicky symptoms.

 

[Booboos]

I'm in France as well and I don't want to vet bash but my experience is that local vets have a lot less knowledge of horses than you would expect in the UK. If I were you I would take him straight to the specialist clinic. They are much more likely to figure out what is happening and in the long run it will save you money, time and heartache.

On the osteo question, many vets here are osteopaths for which they do postgraduate training but that doesn't stop anyone else from calling themselves an osteo. There are no physios for horses as there are in the UK but osteos seem to work on muscles in ways similar to UK physios.

 

[dilbert]

My vet is also an osteo and he has talked about similar things when I have had him out to my gelding., think he quoted something like 1 in 3 geldings could have hind end issues as a result of scarring.

 

[Golden_Match_II]

Hi I'm a vet student (no way near a vet yet so can't really advise.)

If it is a form of arthritis in the spine, your vet should be able to get some radiographs using the portable machine. For the more "fleshy" parts of the spine the images won't be perfect, but as a starting point they can probably do it themselves (I've seen mine do it lots of times.)

Sounds very confusing for you, most people don't understand the veterinary terminology in their mother tongue let alone a second language! It sounds like the vet certainly isn't making your life any easier so I'm really sorry to hear it.

 

[applecart14]

Sounds like Mr Clover may have hit the nail on the head

Page 433 of the link below refers to Funiculitis - here is an extract

Funiculitis

"Funiculitis refers to inflammation of the spermatic cord .It is usually a septic process developing as an extension of a scrotal infection or from a contaminated emasculator or ligature. Failure to remove the tunica vaginalis and external c remaster muscle during open castrations
predisposes horses to septic funiculitis. Signs vary with pyrexia, lameness, inguinal and scrotal swelling and chronic discharge often noted. These may not develop for months or years after castration."

Here is the link: http://www.vetcases.ugent.be/paard3.pdf

 

[Frenchmade]

Just catching up with the latest comments, for which Thank you all. Vet didn't come Tuesday so hopefully will arrive today. In the meantime a friend suggested I ring a specialist equine vet teaching hospital in the UK, which I did this morning. I spoke to one of their specialists. He was really helpful and it was extremely kind to give me so much of his time to discuss this. He is of the opinion that the chances of it being anything to do with the castration are 'remote'. He's also suggested what I should be looking for in terms of a veterinary examination (which hasn't been done properly yet) which will indicate whether we're dealing with something mechanical or something painful somewhere. Plus a trial of bute to determine which it is. Basically, a full lameness workup is required. Hurray, sense at last. We'll see how the vet today stacks up against his info on how he would proceed in this situation. If she doesn't, then Im off to the clinic in Aix straight away.

 

[Frenchmade]

Sounds like Mr Clover may have hit the nail on the head

Page 433 of the link below refers to Funiculitis - here is an extract

Funiculitis

"Funiculitis refers to inflammation of the spermatic cord .It is usually a septic process developing as an extension of a scrotal infection or from a contaminated emasculator or ligature. Failure to remove the tunica vaginalis and external c remaster muscle during open castrations
predisposes horses to septic funiculitis. Signs vary with pyrexia, lameness, inguinal and scrotal swelling and chronic discharge often noted. These may not develop for months or years after castration."

Here is the link: http://www.vetcases.ugent.be/paard3.pdf

Thanks for this. Something to ask about. But there's no pyrexia (based on the several times during the last year that the vet has seen him for other things), no discharge, no swelling, he not overly sensitive in that area, and he doesn't appear lame. ie when I ride I detect no lameness at all, nothing uneven.. In some ways I really do hope it is this because it looks more easily treated and it would be good to have something definite!

 

[Frenchmade]

Hi I'm a vet student (no way near a vet yet so can't really advise.)

If it is a form of arthritis in the spine, your vet should be able to get some radiographs using the portable machine. For the more "fleshy" parts of the spine the images won't be perfect, but as a starting point they can probably do it themselves (I've seen mine do it lots of times.)

Sounds very confusing for you, most people don't understand the veterinary terminology in their mother tongue let alone a second language! It sounds like the vet certainly isn't making your life any easier so I'm really sorry to hear it.

Thank you for your reply. Good and very useful to know that xrays might be able to be done in situ if necessary. I know she has a portable machine because she's done foot/fetlock xrays on him before when he injured himself in the field.

 

[Frenchmade]

I'm in France as well and I don't want to vet bash but my experience is that local vets have a lot less knowledge of horses than you would expect in the UK. If I were you I would take him straight to the specialist clinic. They are much more likely to figure out what is happening and in the long run it will save you money, time and heartache.

On the osteo question, many vets here are osteopaths for which they do postgraduate training but that doesn't stop anyone else from calling themselves an osteo. There are no physios for horses as there are in the UK but osteos seem to work on muscles in ways similar to UK physios.

In general I feel a certain amount of dismay at the level of knowledge in general here regarding horses and riding. The specialist I spoke to this morning (in the UK) said it was a pity that I was in the south as most of the good facilities and people tend to be in the north. He shall remain nameless so I don't get him into trouble!! Small world.

 

[Frenchmade]

Sounds like funiculitis. I have a gelding with this problem, he responded well to a course of antibiotics and , touch wood, he has been fine since so I didn't go ahead with surgery. I don't know if it would cause the uncoordination you discribe. Mine chap was stiff in his hinds and showed mild colicky symptoms.

Glad your chap has come right Mr Clovis. Did you notice the symptoms over a long period or did it come on fairly quickly? Mine doesn't seem to fit the symptoms very well. He's OK one day but not the next, full of energy though! Although he does sometimes seem stiff to start (seen on the lunge) but loosens up totally after cantering for a bit. Hmmmm such a puzzle.

 

[Frenchmade]

Oh great. Just blo**y great. Just found out that the vet isn't coming now until Monday. Had to text to get this info too. No one bothered to let me know. Fuming!!! I know Im impatient to find out what this is, but really!!

 

[applecart14]

Thank you for your reply. Good and very useful to know that xrays might be able to be done in situ if necessary. I know she has a portable machine because she's done foot/fetlock xrays on him before when he injured himself in the field.

Just be warned that because a horse may have changes in its spine, or other areas of its body it doesn't necessarily mean that this is where any pain is eminating from. I always think xrays are best followed up with nerve blocking.

On the other side of the coin... my friend who is a physio and works alongside a vet has has some curious cases recently where horses have appeared lame due to spavin, xrays have pinpointed nothing of any significance and yet, upon nerve blocks to the hock joint the pain has been eradicated and the horse gone sound. That's because sometimes not everything shows on an xray, some cartilage damage won't show, neither will bruising of the bone, yet it will still be painful.

 

[Mr Clovis]

Gosh I thought Spanish vets were unreliable! Having waited all day to be told that they aren't coming after all, I know how fustrating it is. The symptoms came on quite quickly, I thought he'd strained himself until I did a more thorough examination. My vet, who is Spanish, said that he would have had lesions since his castration but that an infection in the stump was what caused the symptoms that I noticed. The horse has always tended to be a bit tense in his back and inclined to buck, but I had never thought to examine the castration scar before. The infection cleared up quickly and I now warm him up on the lunge before riding which definately helps.
I hope you get to the bottom of the problem with your boy.

 

[Booboos]

There is a decent and well equipped vet practice just north of Toulouse but I think you are too far away from us.

From what you describe I'd expect a lameness work up and neuro exam, the results of which would help pinpoint an area for further investigation. I've a horse examined for arthritic changes by ultrasound on the neck and x-Rays on the back, although it was a few years ago now and I may be misremembering.

 

[Frenchmade]

There is a decent and well equipped vet practice just north of Toulouse but I think you are too far away from us.

From what you describe I'd expect a lameness work up and neuro exam, the results of which would help pinpoint an area for further investigation. I've a horse examined for arthritic changes by ultrasound on the neck and x-Rays on the back, although it was a few years ago now and I may be misremembering.

This, ie a full lameness work up with nerve blocks, is precisely what I was told by the UK chap I rang this morning (very eminent equine teaching practice) so I know how to proceed when finally (!) the vet arrives. First though he suggested I do a 10 day trial on a good dose of bute, then 10 days off bute, then another 10 days on. This will give a very good idea of whether the problem is pain related or a mechanical one and so indicate what the next steps should be.

Im in the Var, quite a long way from Toulouse unfortunately! I've looked up the practice in Aix and it looks good. They'll all Amercan or Canadian trained French vets and have excellent equipment and facilities. It's about an hour and a half away.

My current vet is a specialist equine vet and covers the whole of the Var and possibly the Cote d'Azur in part as well. They're thin on the ground. Finding another 'local' horse vet is a non starter. If she doesn't come up to scratch I'll have to go to Aix.

 

[Frenchmade]

Just be warned that because a horse may have changes in its spine, or other areas of its body it doesn't necessarily mean that this is where any pain is eminating from. I always think xrays are best followed up with nerve blocking.

On the other side of the coin... my friend who is a physio and works alongside a vet has has some curious cases recently where horses have appeared lame due to spavin, xrays have pinpointed nothing of any significance and yet, upon nerve blocks to the hock joint the pain has been eradicated and the horse gone sound. That's because sometimes not everything shows on an xray, some cartilage damage won't show, neither will bruising of the bone, yet it will still be painful.

A methodical step by step approach is needed, certainly. I totally agree you need to have both xrays and nerve blocks. Will have to rob a bank. Thank you.

 

[Nakipa]

This is a bit of a sweeping statement but I don't trust vets here when they say they are specialist equine vets. There is one very close to us who advertises as a specialist and I can tell you my dog has more equine veterinary knowledge than he does. I have had real issues with french vets and even taking one of mine to the specialist horsepital near Bordeaux where they just wouldn't listen to me and insisted that he had foot problems. He didn't have anything wrong with his feet but I spent thousands on treatment with them before they finally stopped injecting various parts of his lower leg.
There are some brilliant vets here but they are like rocking horse pooh and very hard to find.

Good luck.

 

[wench]

Can you just take him to the specialty vets and not bother with local ones? If they are American trained hopefully they will be a bit better than the normal French type vets

 

[Frenchmade]

Can you just take him to the specialty vets and not bother with local ones? If they are American trained hopefully they will be a bit better than the normal French type vets

It's a little complicated. I keep my horse at an equestrian centre who has a few full liveries. They have their own specialist equine vet who treats all their horses routinely but if there's something eg hospitalisation/surgery/other stuff needed then they go to Aix to the clinic there. Their vet is considered the best here. I've seen two of the other vets when I rode at other livery yards an equestrian centres. They were rubbish! It won't go down too well if I go over the centre's vet before she's had a chance to look at the horse again in light of this new information (castration thing) and the fact that Im a bit more clued up than I was last time she saw him. I would dearly love to say get lost, Im going to Aix. But after that I doubt I would have a vet I could call for anything else. Aix is an hour and a half away and I don't have my own transport. The centre owner has a massive ego and you have to tread carefully. They are not used to owners who know anything at all about their horses. They like to take full charge and say that is their job. He already chucked out an American livery who went head to head with him on just about every aspect of their care of her horse. It's another world down here. Like Napika says above, ignorance is rampant and so is arrogance.