Dutch Factory Farmed Horses

[magic104]

Oh sorry Tia, did not realise you knew anything about me, because with that statement you clearly dont!! I am not going to get personal so we shall leave it there. I have my thoughts on some peoples idea of good riding & breeding practices. I have never bred anything that has not gone on to do well, they have never had temperment issues, & have held their own at county level. I spend a lot of time researching the breeding & it has only happened twice that I have bred from a mare of unknown breeding, but the last one was graded as 1 with the HIS. I have never bred a horse & not registered it, which is another issue this country has. As for seeing other studs, & other countries you are very ill informed.

 

[AmyMay]

What a hugely interesting thread.

[ QUOTE ]
Oh sorry Tia, did not realise you knew anything about me, because with that statement you clearly dont!!

[/ QUOTE ]
And Magic - Tia is not being personal - but you need to have facts to back up an argument - and not just what you've read on some website.

 

[dieseldog]

OH, lets state some facts

Why do people buy foreign bred horses?

Because they are better than British Bred horses. They are producing what the average rider wants along with world class horses.

Why are they better?

Because the continentals have been doing it longer than us

Will British Bred horses improve?

Lets hope so, lets hope that british breeders have enough sense to learn from the continentals mistakes and to also exploit the continental bloodlines that are in exisistance - just like they did with British Bred horses years ago.

 

[Tia]

You don't want to get personal (which I wasn't) and want to leave it there? So why then continue with giving me a run-down on all the horses you have bred? I'm not really interested in what you have bred to be perfectly honest; I am purely saying that breeding in Denmark is not comparable to the rest of the Continent.....and I know that because I was Manager of a stud in Denmark hence I have first-hand knowledge of what goes on in a number of the upper-end studs over there.

 

[magic104]

Well lets agree to disagree then. As for info from websites, not so, info first hand & from people who spend their time visiting Europe with regard to horse breeding. So I would say they have far more knowledge of practices then is obvious by some of the comments I have seen on here.

 

[AndyPandy]

But it has already been stated (hence Denmark coming into it) that breeding practises are different in every country in Europe.. however, we have been attempting to look generally at other countries, and why they produce better horses than we do. I think this particular thread may become unfocussed if we are not careful.

"I did this", "I did that", "you haven't done this" - who cares, to be quite frank. Experience allows one to pass on a more informed opinion. It doesn't give one the right to become petty.

So Tia, in your experience, how are things done in Denmark? Does that system produce better quality horses than we produce in the UK? Are there things that could be changed to make it better? Are there elements that we can take from Danish breeding that might be useful, or are there things we should avoid?

 

[Tia]

[ QUOTE ]
Does that system produce better quality horses than we produce in the UK?

[/ QUOTE ]
In my opinion, a most resounding YES!

[ QUOTE ]
Are there elements that we can take from Danish breeding that might be useful, or are there things we should avoid?

[/ QUOTE ]

Again in my opinion, yes there are. Top quality mares are coveted over there. Breeding tends to take place with only good stock on both parents sides. In the UK there seems to be this mentality (which I believe is fairly recent to be honest) that it is fine to breed from anything, often because a much loved mare is no longer rideable. This is generally not the case in Denmark - it is a business over there, sentiment doesn't come into it.

 

[AndyPandy]

And this is exactly what I think many people here are trying to say. The qualities that British breeders need are written down time after time in this thread. Successful breeding requires top quality bloodlines, educated breeders, and a business acumen. Unfortunately, it is rare to find this in the UK.

 

[Tia]

......but this is partly my point; top quality mares are often not used when breeding in other areas of Europe. The difference being that the mares generally used in Denmark have done something, have won something, ARE good mares. At a lot of other European (countries) breeding facilities this is very often not the case. They breed from mares where the mare has done nothing.....she just happens to have a famous Grandsire.....hence she is not proven to be much better, in a lot of cases, than the British bred cripple.

 

[airedale]

The report of the foal jumping 4ft 3 inches was in a report in H&H complete with photograph - and it WAS A FOAL - in an issue of last autumn reporting the 'champion foal' at some german shindig or other

I also don't like what is done to USA quarter horses or e.g. tennessee walking horses to achieve the gaits

you don't even NEED to visit germany - in the last 6 months someone posted on here a link to a sales site for a German sale - I think the thread title was something like "wow - what fabulous horses" or similar

when you watched the videos these were 2 yr olds doing collected work in sitting trot, etc etc - exactly as I've described above
I've also seen similar before and direct from studs with videos of their stallions doing progeny groups and their youngstock doing mixed dressage classes with 3 hrorses in the ring at *2* and 3 doing movements we would expect to see at Elementary level dressage

Yes - I know about the exported horses - I mentioned them first

Why did we not use them - because at that time we didn't have german carthorses trying to be good - they needed our TB blood to lighten the german 'product' and our native ponies to give some fundamental soundness and toughness

 

[airedale]

not quite - we still have the £ - and lbs and oz. - they are stuck with the euro

 

[airedale]

the video link to those 2 yr olds was posted on this forum about 3 months ago

so it's not tosh

 

[Tia]

I'm interested in your comment here Airedale:
[ QUOTE ]
I also don't like what is done to USA quarter horses

[/ QUOTE ]
Can you tell me what, in your opinion, is "done" to AQHA's? And how is whatever is "done", detrimental? I know this is somewhat veering off the original topic but I've seen this comment made several times so it has sparked my curiousity.

 

[StaceyTanglewood]

I must say im breeding from my hannovarian dressage mare and took a long time to decide the stallion i had 2 in mind both with same breeding (Sandro Hit x Donnerhall)

the british stallion (bought over here as a 2yo) was not as good as its German brother but was still £100 more expensive

The UK one got 7's and 8's in its grading the other got 9's 9.5's and 10's !!! so i used the foreign stallion as i will have one of the first UK foals by this stallion the stud had me sending pics and her details to them to make sure she would breed good quality !!

 

[warmbloodlover]

(quote]but horses such as oldenburg have to be graded over there as they dont hold gradings over here !!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Please keep your ears open as the oldenburgs do come over and brand and grade the babies, amres etc... this will hopefully buid to being as big a the Hanovarians

 

[StaceyTanglewood]

they come over and check the foals but to grade them as 3yo you have to take them over !!

think the foal inspection is in september !! hopefully by the time my baby is 3 yo they will have a grading over her !!

 

[airedale]

again producing them at 2 - also the idea of 'sacking out' - which to be fair is not just done to quarter horses - although quarter horses do seem to mature faster than warmbloods to be fair

and before you say - I do consider the skills in western riding when done properly to be great - just not the same as english style

the usa also has the advantage in having equitation jumping classes - which the UK could do well in having to encourage riders to ride with style (not just wh classes)

 

[magic104]

Are you on about this link;
http://www.westfalenpferde.de/english/index.htm

If so there are/were no 2yrs olds being shown ridden. A 2yr old would have been born 2005 please check the list below & show me a 2yr old being ridden? Yes there are plenty of 3yr olds & yes they are being ridden in sitting trot. They are being shown for a video to go an auction site, there is no suggestion that all their ridden work is done in sitting trot.

The riding horses and ponys:
foto video price no. name born sex, colour sire / 2nd sire / 3rd sire
27.500 1 Ricci 2004 gelding, dark bay Roh Magic / Bonus / Dergel
8.000 2 Florina 2003 mare, dark bay Florestan I / Renoir I / Gottwalt
11.000 3 Delon 2003 gelding, chestnut De Niro / Freudentanz / Ramiroff
42.000 4 Designer 2003 gelding, chestnut D´accord / Foxtrott / Salto II
7.500 5 Prinz Piccolo 2000 stallion, bay Prinz Pablo / Casaretto / Renard
15.500 6 Such a fancy feeling 2004 mare, bay Stedinger / Matcho AA / Goldstein
17.000 7 Feiner Willy 2004 gelding, chestnut Fidermark / Weinberg / Ribot
6.500 8 Dubai 2001 gelding, bay Donnerwind / Polany / Weinberg
5.500 9 Cosma 2003 mare, bay Carabas / Rigoletto / Wohlan
24.000 10 For Ever 2003 gelding, bay Florestan I / Frühling / Firn
16.000 11 Campario 2003 gelding, bay Collin L / Newcastle / Goldlack
8.000 12 Symphonie 2002 mare, bay Show Star / Florestan I / Brentano II
8.200 13 Royal Chris 2002 gelding, black Royal Angelo I / Pakt
15.500 14 Rupina 2003 mare, dark bay Rockwell / Pigott / Palisander
77.000 15 Don Rochelle 2002 gelding, dark bay Dollmann / Pit I / Rex Fritz
9.000 16 Carabelle 2003 mare, bay Cheenook / Pit I / Weinberg
11.500 17 Rubiano 2003 gelding, bay Roh Magic / Laurentianer / Der Clou
canceled 18 Dolce und Gabbana 2003 mare, bay Di Versace / Ribbeck / Pilot
7.000 19 Lavinia 2003 mare, bay Lamerto H / Wessex / Akzentus
20.000 20 Lauris 2004 gelding, bay Laudabilis / Lancer II / Darlington
canceled 21 Finocchino 2004 gelding, bay Fürst Piccolo / Pinocchio / Paradox I
9.200 22 Lagerfeld 2002 gelding, dark bay Liebeszauber / Wachhorst / Geronimo
canceled 23 La Boheme 2003 mare, chestnut Louis le Bon / Wall Street / Romadour II
17.000 24 Contessa 2002 mare, bay Conterno Grande / Latus II / Granikos
7.000 25 Dresemeyer 2004 gelding, chestnut Dresemann / Weltmeyer / Wangenheim
6.000 26 Freund Horst 2003 gelding, chestnut Fidermark / Wachhorst / Debütant
6.000 27 Del Fiore 2003 mare, dark bay Danaos / RTL / Rousseau
5.500 28 Detolina 2004 mare, chestnut Dannemann / Wogenbrecher / Pilot
canceled 29 Feedback 2002 gelding, bay Future I / Artwig / Weinhang
5.000 30 Couplet 2002 mare, bay Cordobes I / Frühlingsball / Rinaldini
6.000 31 Dr. Doolittle (Pony) 2002 gelding, grey Danny Gold / Nedo I / Metol
2.500 32 Camingo (Pony) 2004 gelding, chestnut Capri Moon / Domingo / Leonardo
3.300 33 Mumpitz (Pony) 2003 gelding, dark bay Mumm / Contreau / Nassau
8.000 34 Agricula 2001 mare, bay Amantus / Landgraf I / Urioso
12.500 35 Extravagante 2002 mare, bay Ehrentanz I / Hamlet Go / Leibjäger
7.000 36 Fiapart 2004 gelding, chestnut Fiano / Apart / Renaldo
canceled 37 Favonia 2004 mare, dark bay Florestan I / Weinberg / Feuerfunke xx
8.500 38 Laureen 2001 mare, bay Laurentianer / Artwig / Weinhang
12.000 39 Lennox 2003 gelding, dark bay Laomedon / Apart / Grünhorn III
7.000 40 Duchess 2003 mare, chestnut Douceur / Ehrentusch / Frühlingsball
7.000 41 Fahrenheit 2003 gelding, chestnut Feinsinn / Ferragamo / Damenstolz
canceled 42 Fabiani 2002 mare, chestnut Florestan I / Abano / Paradox II
9.000 43 Palü 2002 gelding, bay Pik Labionics / Octavo xx / Mamori xx
15.000 44 Shalimo 2004 gelding, bay Show Star / Rohdiamant / Lysander
5.000 45 Charipaldi 2004 gelding, dark bay Charisma / Fittipaldi / Regress
5.000 46 Finetto 2004 stallion, bay Fidermark / Ramiro´s Son / Frühlingsstar
6.000 48 Laudabino 2004 gelding, grey Laudabilis / Ehrentusch / Affekt
9.000 49 Saint José 2003 gelding, bay Sterling / Granikos / Damokles
10.500 50 Donna Raphaela 2004 mare, chestnut D´accord / Davignon I / Raphael
4.500 51 Lara 2001 mare, bay Laurentianer / Tänzer / Romadour II
canceled 52 Loreana 2001 mare, grey Lamerto H / Popcorn / Don Juan
8.000 53 Lombardo 2004 gelding, bay Laudabilis / Freudentänzer / Darling
5.000 54 Royal Marie 2003 mare, bay Rolls Royce / Rossini / Feuerschein I
5.000 55 Del Angelo 2003 gelding, bay Depardieu / Royal Angelo II / Pageno
7.000 56 Lennard 2003 gelding, bay Lenardo / Polydor / Tivoli
21.000 57 Foroni 2003 gelding, bay Fürst Piccolo / Matador / Rheingold
5.500 58 Finesse 2004 mare, dark bay Feinsinn / Weltruf / Frühlingstraum II
16.500 59 Fenley 2003 gelding, chestnut Fürst Piccolo / Pluspunkt / Lucius xx
50.000 60 Fascinato 2004 stallion, black Fürst Heinrich / Funke / Perlkönig I
7.500 61 Fleurette 2003 mare, chestnut Fleurop / Paulaner / Furioso II
canceled 62 La Jolie 2003 mare, bay Lamoureux I / Pilot / Angriff
42.000 63 Feiner Henry 2004 gelding, chestnut Fürst Piccolo / Pinocchio / Dialekt
12.500 64 Conroy 2002 gelding, bay Collin L / Amadeus Z / Milan

And the caption was no wonder we go abroad. If you look at the foals the movement is already there.

 

[Tia]

I wouldn't say that there are very many QH's produced at 2 years old, to be honest. Yes it is common practice to lightly back them at 2 but generally most people wait till the horse is around 4 before producing them....certainly I do anyway and I don't know anyone else who does a whole lot with their horses until at least 4 years old.

Sacking out - well I am at the very opposite end of the spectrum to you on this score. My little foal who is only a month old is already learning all of this .... shock horror LOL!! I can't bear horses who freak at things and there is no place on my farm for a horse who does this. Having said that most young horses over here have been sacked out at a very young age so even if you buy an older horse, that is one thing that you are pretty confident will have been done with them. I am a very firm believer in desensitizing at a young age; so on this point we'll have to agree to disagree

.

I do agree with you that it is very different over here and it does take a far more open-mindedness to get used to it.....however it is a mind-set that, having seen the benefits for both horse and rider, I have adopted, providing the horse is ready. I believe that the long-term benefits far outweigh any prejudices I might once have had.

 

[the watcher]

Gosh, so many responses, and so many twists and turns from the original post...

I don't think failing to give a foal a name is a bad thing, the foal certainly doesn't know..and to object violently to continental breeding on this basis alone would be sentimental rubbish when there are so many other good reasons to be suspicious of continental breeders.

Breeding does vary widely across continental Europe, however one of the aspects that does differ from the UK is the support that is given to it, in terms of planning allowances, grants, government support and publicity. We might get close to this in the UK with TB breeding, if you can hack through the red tape that seems to exist here.

Some continental breeders do run very large breeding farms and it is no secret that German breeders in particular have bought huge sections of land in the former eastern european countries which house literally hundreds of mares with little or no competition history. These mares are not just there to breed foals by well bred stallions, they are there for the PMU industry - which is why so many foals are produced. When they are exhausted of use in that industry they will then supply the meat industry.

So, some studs will be wonderful, with personal attention to mares and foals..others will be nothing better than factories and a source of misery to hundreds of mares. A responsible purchaser will enquire into the location and type of facility used to produce their foal.

I am not aware of farms of this type in the UK and that is a good thing. I am aware of people who breed indiscrimately and have fields full of mares and foals here, neglected, wormy and very poor quality..but they are not pretending that these are performance animals. We all know who they are. i wouldn't buy one of those either.

 

[dieseldog]

[ QUOTE ]
again producing them at 2 - also the idea of 'sacking out' - which to be fair is not just done to quarter horses - although quarter horses do seem to mature faster than warmbloods to be fair

and before you say - I do consider the skills in western riding when done properly to be great - just not the same as english style

the usa also has the advantage in having equitation jumping classes - which the UK could do well in having to encourage riders to ride with style (not just wh classes)

[/ QUOTE ]

The UK does have equitation style classes. The premier 4 YO class is a style and performance one. 2 rounds not against the clock and the horses are marked on their performance and correct way of going. 4 and 5 YO classes are not against the clock.

 

[FRESHMAN]

I have read every single post on this thread & I am sorry airedale but I think this is tosh. There is good & bad in every walk of life & in Individual Countries. I have visited studs in Germany, Belgium, Holland & Denmark (not France for some reason) I have never come across one that works as you describe. You mention PSI. Well they have acre upon acre of land & herds of horses roam freely. YES they do have huge barns (for the worst weather) where they are deep littered with loads of room & they are fed from a central alleyway. OK there is sometimes a bit of bullying, but isnt that quite normal, its how horses learn pecking order & has gone on in the wild for 100's of years. They are fed good quality food & actually with regards to the comment about how DISGUSTING not to name a foal. The owner of that Stud can rhyme off who any of them are by, out of, Grand Sires & Dams of both parents etc.
God Forgive us for our sins, we actually have visited an auction recently. We purchased 5. The truth is we could easily have purchased 50. All of them as described, fabulous bloodlines, well organised, & it was more like a holiday than business.
This Country will have to pull its socks up & sharpish if I am ever going to find the same type of animals as on the Continent. Oh BTW 3 of the horses are 3yr olds & not one of them had been backed. So that sort of knocks your theory on the head doesnt it.
Also everyone of them had a name!

 

[Sooty]

[ QUOTE ]
they live in indoor barns

whilst the barns may be 'big' that means the size of the buildin - the space per horse isn't necessarily all that large..............

and they don't see the outside world and don't get to see grass - just the barn and bulk feeds - no individual feeds to suit the needs of the individual - barrow type feeds - if it suits OK if it doesn't - tough

not like chickens kept in cages - more like BernardMatthews where the birds are overcrowded in barns

[/ QUOTE ]

Surely by buying one you are doing it a favour then?

 

[druid]

I don't get these arguements....I have a GB bred warmblood yearling....who has entirely German/Swiss blood lines so..is that promoting GB breeding? Or not?

Am I just as bad for importing him into Ireland and not supporting Irish breeding?

 

[spottysport]

Surely the bottom line of this whole argument is down to money!!!!
I breed a couple of foals each year, out of calm sound mares (no they are not graded) by proven stallions. I can easily spend 3k producing each baby, but most riders expect to pick up a weanling here for 800 pounds. The same rider will visit the continent and mortgage their house! It's really not worth doing!
Yes, all mine are named, handled, farrier, innoculated, registered, and see the vet when ness. I just fail to find adequate riders to do them justice!
Sx

 

[spottysport]

and P.S.
I have a livery yard, and both continental horses (purchased at great cost) that have been here have been PTS. They were BOTH lame. Surely that tells us something??????????????????

 

[Tia]

I don't personally know anyone who has spent a vast sum of money on an imported WB to be quite honest. I know loads of loads of people who have imported a WB for a fraction of what you can buy a nicely bred horse for in England.

I imported a number of WB's for resale purposes when I lived in England......and I never ever paid more than £700 for them and they were all around aged 7, all up to and beyond medium dressage, good little showjumpers etc.

Most people I know who have purchased an already imported WB have never spent much more than £5,000 on them....hence the dealers markup is enormous!

So your theory about them spending fortunes on these horses is not the experience I have; most buy them because they are so much cheaper than other horses on the market and most of them are pretty capable horses. They suit a budget and they generally do a decent enough job.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe British breeders should take some advice from continetal breeders as they then may actually stay in business and make buying a british bred horse a viable option.

But whilst people insist on breeding from lame old rubbish and stallion owners continue putting their stallions to such horses, british bred horses are going to remain either inferior or way too expensive if they are actually half decent.

[/ QUOTE ]

*applauds*

 

[airedale]

spottysport - you have seen the same horses I have
also seen the ones just imported from the continent - germany and holland - where they can be tacked up - taken into the school and do tempi changes, pirouettes, etc etc

now unless they were trained to do that over the channel then they must be miracle horses to have learnt those things on the lorry bringing them to the UK....!!!!

I've seen lots of unsound and dead imported horses at 6 and 7 and 8 - so all this continetnal breeding has to be doing a lot wrong..........apart from charging british fools a lot of money for rubbish

 

[Tia]

I have to say the ones I imported were never unsound physically......mine all had major psychological problems which took time for them to overcome.

But I totally agree with you on the capabilities of these horses at very young ages - this has also been my experience. Perhaps things have changed recently as my last import was in July 2004 and apart from her not knowing what grass was, she was eminently saleable shortly afterwards, and yes she was perfectly competent at performing every movement you are talking of; as were all of the rest of them.