Dutch V's American Gag? How different are these two bits?

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Just so I don't confuse people I'm talking about the Dutch gag which has leather or rope through the bit ring and the American gag with the long sliding shank which the rein attaches to.

Am I right in thinking that the action is quite similar on these two bits? Or am I totally off mark?
 
You have your bits confused

A Dutch gag (aka continental, belgian gag or bubble bit) has the mouthpeice sliding on a circle. Has a confused gag action that tends to move the bit around in the mouth and often drags the cheek peice forward. These bits bring the head down.

An American gag has a longer shank and has a straight section for the mouthpeice to slide on. Used mildly they do lift slightly, but as soon as the shank is employed it brings the head down. It has a cleaner gag action that the continental IMHO.

A running gag (types include on cheltenham gag, nelson gag, loose ring gag, duncan gag...), these are on nylon or leather cheeks and have a straight forward gag action and bring the head up.
 
if it has leather or rope through the bit ring it is a cheltenam/balding gag not a dutch gag.

If this is what you mean then they have different actions from my own knowlege. I was always under the impression an american gag had a head lowering effect. Then the cheltenam/balding gag had a head lowering effect used for leaners possibly..

So no in my opinion they have different effects, unless you did mean dutch gag which would have a simular action

did you mean this
http://www.shop4bits.com/item--Hollow-Mouth-Large-Loose-Ring-Gag--hollow-mouth-loose-ring-gag.html

or this
http://www.shop4bits.com/item--Continental-Jointed-Gag--continental-jointed-gag.html

ETA: I put the bits actions the wrong way round
 
gags, what a joyous contentious and confusing subject!

as we are all taught a gag is a bit who's action raises the head.

of the three bits commonly referred to as gags, only one does this which is the running gag or cheltenham gag (same thing, different names) (picture - http://www.discountsaddleryshop.co.uk/images/cheltenham%20gag%20with%20leather.jpg ) should really be used with two reins - one on the snaffle ring acts like a plain snaffle, the one on the running cheekpiece is used to lift the head - the running leather has the effect of lifting the bit in the horse's mouth to lift the head.

the action of the dutch gag/bubble bit/pessoa bit/3-ring gag (same bit, different names) is quite similar to the american gag (picture - http://www.horsingaroundsaddlery.co.uk/ccp51/media/images/product_category/6323.jpg) in that they are both bits that rely heavily on leverage for their action - creating a lot of poll pressure, and really having more of a lowering effect than a raising effect.

I'm not sure how the american and dutch gags got labelled as gags - they are not really anything more than snaffles with added leverage (LOTS of leverage and poll pressure)
 
I have always found the dutch gag lifts the head, and the cheltenham lowers the head. Hate Dutch gags (bubble bits) as they make a horse star gaze and stop if from looking where is it going. True gags (cheltenham/balding gags) can be useful but ideally with 2 reins!!
 
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my apologies everyone it would help if I got the names of the bits I am referring to correct wouldn't it!!
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You are correct in guessing that I mean the American gag and the Cheltenham gag (as commonly known - but obviously not to me!!
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Ok so what you are saying it that the American one has a head raising effect?

So what would you suggest for my dad's horse? He has quite a sensitive mouth(fleshy lips and tongue too) and can lean on the bit and tends to fight it as much as anything. The "American" gag works in so much as dad has the brakes but it also means his horse sticks his head in the air and therefore dad has to have a short rein etc etc - yes it's a vicious circle.

Not sure I've explained that very well! Basically what I'm asking is, is there a bit that provides braking but doesn't have such a severe action as the American gag?
 
no, cheltenham has the clear head raising action
american gag has a mixed action - although when used with a strong hand tends to lower the head.
dutch gag also tends to lower the head and has a mixed action.
 
Mmmm well that's put a different view on things then....

By dad's horse definately avoids the action of the American by sticking his head in the air and poking his nose. I suppose there's now better answer than proper schooling really is there
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Totally wrong time of year now unfortunately.

Stuck for ideas now really.... any suggestions welcome please (other than for me to learn the correct names for bits!!)
 
[ QUOTE ]
Tom Thumb bit. Is like a mild american gag, has a lovely mouthpiece that horses respect but has very little nut cracker action
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I second that, have used Tom Thumbs on lots of different horse and ponies and they all seem to go really well in it, Haven't found one that didn't like it!

Here's a link so you can see a picture

http://www.shiresequestrian.co.uk/shop/product.php?productid=806&cat=0&page=1
 
Try adding an american curb chain to your american gag, it gives a stop point and should help with the nose poking.

Of course if you are using a single jointed american gag, I shall berate you for using a bit that squeezes the tongue and stabs them in the roof of their mouth!
 
I have just ordered a happy mouth straight mouthpiece American gag in the hope that it will stop our very sensitive mouthed mare (she fights the bit so much her mouth bleeds in any jointed bit, and yes, her teeth are done every 3 months, just in case!) from being so strong. Initially we'll try it with roundings. Might that help, Runaway.

Of course, any bit is as strong as the hands holding the reins and so we shall introduce it with care.
 
Don't think the curb addition will be to Paris' liking, can see him going up in it
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but thanks for the idea.

What benefit do the roundings give measles? Does it "spread" the pressure so to speak and stop the leaverage being so severe? Interesting about you choosing the straight mouthpiece - does your mare lean at all? I've ridden him in a mullen mouth snaffle and he seems to like that but I wouldn't like to do any fast work with him in it
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[ QUOTE ]
I have always found the dutch gag lifts the head, and the cheltenham lowers the head. Hate Dutch gags (bubble bits) as they make a horse star gaze and stop if from looking where is it going. True gags (cheltenham/balding gags) can be useful but ideally with 2 reins!!

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He he! I've found the dutch gag lowers the head and the cheltenham raises the head!
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I quite like dutch gags (A goes very well in his and I've tried him in a pelham a kimblewick and a hanging cheek with various mouthpieces!
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) I wish it wasn't so UGLY though.
Isn't that JUST like horses?
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If your dads horse has a sensitive mouth but is strong with it try this bit, http://www.derbyhouse.co.uk/prodshow.asp?id=4448&cat=424&scats=384,445, fantastic bits but only for riders with very soft hands, the action of the bit works on the noes, poll and chin rather than on the mouth and tongue. You can either ride on the bottom ring or use couplings for a softer feel. They are excellent bits for horses with very sensitive mouths and tongues, i have used these on several show jumpers who have had bad mouths and the horses love them as the pressure is completely off the tongue which is the cause of many bitting problems in horses. People have teeth and backs checked but a horses tongue is very sensitive and believe me in the right hands these bits work wonders.
 
Thanks for the suggestion moodymare30 but Dad's not sensitive with his hand enough to try something like that.

He hacked out in a cheltenham which we've borrowed and he said Paris went really well but time will tell once he's out and working.

It's interesting to hear everyone's experiences and suggestions.
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