duty of care as a yard manager or interferring??

It's not necessarily the time at which things are done that matters, what matters is that the horses get some time outside their box, have constant access to water and forage, and aren't standing in muck all day long. That is what the 'Act' cares about also.

If I know I'll be up late one morning, I leave extra haylage and water. I've known of yards done by staff where the horses are done by 4pm (when it gets dark), and then left 'till 9am the following morning - so 17 hours. I generally leave mine around 9pm, so the same 17 hours gives me until 2pm the following day! I wouldn't ever turn up that late, but it's just to illustrate the point!

Make the point about the horse needing constant food and water, and a clean bed - charge for that if necessary (pointing out it would be cheaper for livery if you turned horse out am), and see where that gets you!
 
Blimey, I've been known to turn up past 10 some days! I'd hate to be told what time I have to do my horse.

As a YO, you should have a meeting, tell them how it's going to be and give notice if they don't comply. Your yard, your rules.
 
I would sort them out and face the owner's anger... as i would then tell them that I was only doing it because I cared about their horses as they obviously don't. :mad: It is difficult because they are DIY but the yard should make certain rules to prevent horses being mistreated. For example, I know a DIY yard where the horses have to be fed and mucked out by the owner by 10 am latest or else the YO will do it and they will be charged.

I'm lucky because my current yard only offers Part/Full Livery so all of the horses are well looked after and none are neglected.
 
jaypeebee said:
Can you tell people when to come and do their horses? I wouldnt. The time they come isnt relevant so long as horses always have hay and water available and bed cleaned out once a day. Some people work antisocial hours or have other things to do.
Click to expand...

Well if they have an anti social job, or other things to do, then perhaps its time they accepted the fact that they dont have time for a horse.
YO does have a duty of care to whatever is on said yard, and besides all else, its hardly a good advertisement for potential new liveries coming to view is it?
Would you honestly stable your horse somewhere you could blatently see neglect? I know I wouldnt!
YO needs to inform (in writing if necessary) what is acceptable, and what is not....a horse standing in a filthy wet bed is NOT acceptable! Perhaps inform said liveries that if horse is not attended to by say 11, then YO will see to horse and charge for the time.
 
if a horse is being neglected in any way then I believe the manager/yard owner should either talk and sort problem out / deal with horse self and as final thing reporrt if ness. We have a situation on our yard of withholding vet care and I have told yard owner if i see pony out box and obviously lame I will report to WHW - It is a long story and I am not afraid to report when it is pure bloody mindness and cant be bothered attitude - but ummmm also told yard owner I would punch said liveries lights out if I see her smoking in her hay store again( which is next to my horses) and she as been warned before regarding smoking on yard.
 
when I did DIY, I paired up to give me a break - I did the early shouts during the week and fed/turned out. My friend would bring mine and feed/hay around 5. I could then wander later on the way home for a final check on both horses. Weekends, friends OH would give me a break on Sunday - so we managed with long hours and horses were not left beyond 9 am ever.
 
I agree what some of the others have said about the timings for the stable been mucked out but having a constant supply of hay water. I cant always get up in the morning so will arange for somebody to hay,water and take his top rug off. Ill then go up at lunch time put him/exercise muck outect. Ill then go back up in the evening for daughter to ride and finish up. Hes quite clean in his stable so hes actually no harder to muck out later or earlier, although he does have quite a big bed so is not stood on pee slipping over. So yes agree that the YO should make sure either horse is hayed or turned out in the morning if the horse isnt and charging for them but sont nessary agree with putting a timing on what time the horse should be mucked out at.
 
I'm a DIY YO and have had almost an identical situation to the OP's, as well as where a livery (now gone thank god) left her pony in the stable for nearly 24 hrs without either food or water or mucking out, THEN kiddo daughter turned up and thought she was going to hack out on it and everything would be fine and dandy!!!!!! OMG.

The bottom line is the YO is where the buck stops as far as welfare issues are concerned; its NOT the owner that'll end up in the RSPCA's bad books, its the actual premises where the horse is kept - not the owner!! :(

I know someone commented that they didn't get to see to their horse till 10.00 a.m.... as a YO I wouldn't have an issue with that as long as it was a REGULAR occurrence and I KNEW about it!!!

But I think the issue here is people taking the p!ss which unfortunately is what happens with DIY; and I know when I had a bad lot here (the only bad egg in a long line of absolutely super liveries going back over many years I have to say, which was a pity) I felt sorry for the pony more than anything else, which is obviously the kind of YO the OP is too.

For what its worth, this is what I'd do as a DIY YO if I had the problem described:-

Sit down and write a list of everything you've had to do for these liveries; who are basically paying for DIY but expecting YO to be their slave, groom, etc etc, and cost for each "task" on that list.

Then, get all parties together and tell them (with an independent witness present if you can) that the current situation cannot continue and that you have serious welfare issues with regard to their horses care. Distribute the list/charges to each culprit and ask for payment. If they pull faces about it and/or refuse then give them whatever notice is on their agreement and send them up the road. Give them a deadline by which their horse and all their personal effects must be off the yard by.

THEN open a nice bottle, and celebrate! Coz you don't need this hassle, nobody does.

If people pay for DIY then they should expect DIY and not expect anything else without paying for it!!!

This is obviously a very conscientious YO and one who obviously cares about the horses in their yard, and that's a precious thing.
 
zoelouisem said:
I agree what some of the others have said about the timings for the stable been mucked out but having a constant supply of hay water.

So yes agree that the YO should make sure either horse is hayed or turned out in the morning if the horse isnt and charging for them but sont nessary agree without putting a timing on what time the horse should be mucked out at.
Click to expand...

I agree with this. I have seen many diy yards work brilliantly if the liveries (or YO) get together and feed and hay in the morning. Many people will do two muck outs etc but some can't and as long as their horses are on a good bed this isn't a problem.

The timing of care for me isn't the issue it is the regularity and making sure the horses are given enough water, hay and bedding which by all accounts these owners are not doing.

I'd do as others have suggested. Charge them - they'll soon sort it one way or another.
 
ppl's circumstances are so different and its not time ppl tend their horses but regularlty - ok I bought mine in at 3pm yesterday rather than 7pm due to weather and me getting home safely but they were double hayed and watered and had been in field since 8 am . seeing a horse left in a stable 24/7 once in that given 24 hrs is purely unacceptable - ;lack of forgae water and clean helathy enviroment( ie bedding) is neglect
 
joeanne said:
Well if they have an anti social job, or other things to do, then perhaps its time they accepted the fact that they dont have time for a horse.
Click to expand...

Dont agree with this in the slightest.
I have an anti social job and other things to do during the day like most people but i make time for my horse.
Not everyone can sit at home and spend hours on end to do there horse.
Like most i have bills to pay, i have to work. Does this make my a bad owner?
 
I was on a DIY yard once that had a rule regarding the time by which a stabled horse must be attended to in the morning - I think it was something like 10.30am, after which it would be mucked/skipped out, given hay a water by the yard staff and the owner would be charged. This rule was strictly imposed.
 
to OP you definately have a duty of care as Yard Manager and despite it being DIY section of the yard, I would give them one warning at the most and if does not improve, give them notice...end of. You wont have any problems filling the spaces and there is no excuse for no feed/bedding etc ,it IS a welfare issue.

I dont get up to my two particularly early at weekends when I turn them out, sometimes due to daughter being a nightmare to get up, sometimes just delayed etc, however usually no later than 9.30am. They have extra hay on Friday/Sat nights (yo usually turns them out during week), never run out of hay when I get there.

As your yard is so public I would say if DIY'ers are not prepared to keep to Mimumum Standards of Care (you may want to add a section in your contracts) then they go, simple......

xx
 
siennamum said:
I think it would be a shame if these horses were moved to another yard, at least at the moment they do get cared for - by other people .
I would alter the contract and state that owners have to be at yard by 9.30 every day and horses have to be done, & if XYZ chores aren't done, they will be done by staff & specific charges will be levied. Ideally they will be forced to accept to pay extra to have the horses looked after properly - or sell up & take up a different hobby.
Click to expand...

Sounds good to me.

I think there should be a law against ar******s owning horses :mad:
 
DIY, assisted livery and our own horses all get a slice of hay and a feed ar 8am, more hay at 12, hay and a feed at 4 and a haynet at 8. We have drinkers so water isn't an issue. The hay/feeds are left outside the doors, the DIYs muck out/turn out/groom/exercise when it suits them, but I can't imagine the chaos if they were all getting fed at different times. I don't charge any extra for putting in feeds, but if a livery can't make it to the yard I charge a daily rate for full livery. I couldn't stand by and watch a horse being neglected.
 
I have to say think you're completely right for unerferring. And I would say that hitting them in the wallet is the best way to cope with them. There was a horse on my yard once who was treated as yours were and it also had chronic arthritis so really needed it's turn out. As it was on the uni campus yard, the yo went to get her out of bed and she still didn't come down! Ended up getting kicked off the yard!! Although I think that a worse case came when an owner on my yard exercised his horse beyond belief after it had come from a year at grass and ended up leaving it so its bones were poking out and it was diagnosed as supposedly "anorexic" by the vet when really he wasnt feeding it and was galloping it around fields for hours each day and jumping it beyond belief! Again,he left the yard eventually but god knows what the horse is like now. I'd keep on tacking them the way you are but try not to get them to leave as that could be worse.
 
Perhaps I am hard nosed but liveries are paying guests and should abide by your rules. It doesn't matter what they think, the horse is in your care, you should have the passport and you are responsible in law for its welfare.
If you have not got a contract already right them a letter specifing how you like the animals cared for and give them a week to rectify the situation otherwise they are given notice. If they do not like it they can always vote with their feet.
A horse does not know why you are late, or what hours you work it needs care and if you do not have the time to do it yourself you have to pay someone else to do it. For several years I cared for my horse, rode 5 times a week in winter and worked full time. I didn't drive at the time so I either walked or cycled, I was also 4 stones lighter.
When you care for an animal that is effectively livinging in a box your comfort comes second.
 
Think we have to look at the horse welfare act - these horses are being deprived of the basic neccesities - food, water and exercise.

YO has every right to query any negletful care of any horse on their property. Their reputation is at stake.
 
So, if due to other commitments I go down to the yard at 10- 10.30 in the morn, spend an hour Playing with my horse, then turn him out And do all my jobs, then go to work etc....

Back at 9.30pn to bring him in and settle him down for the night- all you who are so specific about time- in your eyes am I neglecting him? Cause he's the happiest he's ever been...

I'm not trying to start an argument btw (unlike a lot of other threads on here :-/)
 
I think we sould all stop getting personal and go back to original problem... if you read, this persons horses are being left without food or water for long periods of time.

The personal situations being argued on here do not in any way match the YO's quandary with her liveries....
 
If they were at our yard, The YO would give them 3 choices
1) To keep the horse to a minimum standard as set out by the YO
2) To have assisted livery (as is obviously required!) and pay accordingly
3) Leave the yard ASAP

Over the years there have been a few people come as DIYs who sound similar to those two. If they were'nt prepared to pay for assistance, they were told to leave, as all the horses on her yard have to be managed to a miniumum standard, which I think is how it should be.
 
Misinterpreted said:
If they were at our yard, The YO would give them 3 choices
1) To keep the horse to a minimum standard as set out by the YO
2) To have assisted livery (as is obviously required!) and pay accordingly
3) Leave the yard ASAP

Over the years there have been a few people come as DIYs who sound similar to those two. If they were'nt prepared to pay for assistance, they were told to leave, as all the horses on her yard have to be managed to a miniumum standard, which I think is how it should be.
Click to expand...

Absolutely!!!
 
Our yard contract states that horses on DIY must be attended to by 10am by either the owner or someone designated by the owner to put in hay and water. If this is not done by 10am, the yard staff do it and charge the owner.
Also in the contract (and the 'rules' board outside the yard) it states that beds must be mucked out a minimum of once a day, twice if the horse is staying in. Again, if this is not done, the staff do it and charge the owner.
Any repeated contravention of the above rules means the person is asked to leave the yard.

With regard to exercise, it is a tricky one. The horse next door to mine hasn't been out of the box for over a week and I do feel really sorry for him. I also feel sorry for the next person to sit on him (who I doubt will be the owner)! This is something you can't really do yourself as a YO / YM, but certainly something I would be having a chat with the owner about.

Poor horses. Honestly, I can't understand why some people have horses!
 
All good points. I am not that sympathetic as I was on DIY for 7 years and I did manage regular times. I also had a stressy TB who was not a great doer so no way would he be left out late. I would have been delighted if the YO would have been able to offer back up but we didn't have that at our yard so we paired up with other liveries to extend our cover and keep timings straight.

Though as for exercise at the moment.. hmmm - my boy hasn't been sat on for 3 weeks, mare only once and managed a couple of times on the lunge. Trying to mix between horses getting out in the field or walking in the school if they don't. Not particularly looking forward to starting again, but also looking very sadly at how both horses are losing all their muscle..
 
In answer to OP I think you have a duty of care TBH. There always seems to be one who comes down late/doesnt give their horses enough hay/water etc but it just carries on. As a livery this kind of thing gets my goat and have complained to YMs in the past for nothing to be done which is infuriating.

There has been some great advice on this thread already but if I was you I would be amending the contracts to state that owners (or alternative carer!) must be on the yard by 10am, horses need to be mucked out at least once a day (twice if in all day) and must have access to appropriate feed and water at all times. If none of this is the case then, unless you have been previously notified (in the case of post 10am arrival), the yard will complete the duties and charge at a rate of X,YZ.

Liveries like this give everyone else (and yards) a bad name so I would be keen to sort or get rid ASAP!

Good luck :)
 
tallyhohoho said:
I think we sould all stop getting personal and go back to original problem... if you read, this persons horses are being left without food or water for long periods of time.

The personal situations being argued on here do not in any way match the YO's quandary with her liveries....
Click to expand...

^^^^ Ditto

If these horses were on my yard I would be requesting a meeting with both liveries and telling them to either buck up their ideas, pay for the horses to been seen to in the morning and late evening or to leave and after the meeting if I didn't see an improvement within the next week I would give them notice to leave, but when we had DIY our contracts stated the horses had to be seen too by 10am and the DIY price included a late night check and water/hay top up if required. Otherwise I did them and they were charged for it. On DIY yards there will be many horses on different routines but there still needs to beb at my yard, a level of care adhered to IMO and not getting basics such as forage and water for such a long period of time can't be good for the horses.
 
As someone else said, the very fact that the liveries are being aggressive and rude when things are done for the horses are signs that they know fine well that what they do is insufficient and are reacting defensively - I have been on the receiving end of this myself and its not on. :mad:

As for what I'd recommend YO to do;

Put a notice up for all to see, listing specific standards that ALL liveries are expected to adhere to. be specific: Horses to be turned out for at least X hours per day, weather permitting, and must be left with sufficient (e.g. minimum 1 slicer per hour) forage and access to fresh water at all times when in. Horses must be given sufficient clean bedding and mucked out daily. If you want to, give reasons, like in order to meet the 5 freedoms and for the horse's health and mental wellbeing. You may also like to state that this has become an issue as the yard is public and DIY liveries' standards need to be at least as high as those demonstrated by staff. Give a month's notice for this to be put into place, and list penalties (3 strike warning, or charges for staff doing it and the assumption that staff will do it if owner not in contact or been down by X o'clock).

Anybody who doesn't like it can discuss with YO or find somewhere else to go.

Good luck.

PS in the eyes of the law the YO is as responsible for the welfare of their liveries' horses as the horse owners themselves.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top