dying pony on dartmoor

[Dry Rot]

it isn't nature..as I have stated several times previously these are human bred and selected animals.

If they were/had been permitted to be subject to only evolutionary pressures I would have no problem with them being left to their own devices. Instead they have been selected by us, for example for the addition of colour and therefore we should not have the same expectations of them as of other wild animals. and for instance I don't feel the same about exmoors.

Deer, are much more natural and only selected by humans by hunting, exerting a selective pressure.

Sheep, I'm not so up on my sheep history but given that farmers only make any money if their sheep survive I wonder if any human selection on their breeding has been somewhat better, particularly as their colour doesn't really matter.

The sheep I referred to are our native semi-feral sheep living on uninhabited Scottish islands. As far as I am aware, they are not managed in the accepted sense of the word. For one, most can't be herded as they don't flock. The old timers used to train their dogs to catch them! They had their canine teeth knocked out so the sheep would not be damaged.

I also posted a video about the Swona cattle (above) which were abandoned on a Scottish island to be left to their own devices about 40 years ago. These are being discussed on a farming forum and I am getting the impression that the consensus is that the whole herd (Shorthorn-Aberdeen Angus) should now be destroyed "for welfare reasons".

I wonder how long it will be before the native Dartmoor ponies are too -- with ponies similar to them in appearance (but having none of their unique characteristics) consigned to the low ground, rugged of course, grazed on fertilised grassland, crippled by Laminitis, but winning in the show ring -- which is all the majority on QB's poll will want anyway. But that will be OK because their welfare considerations will have been met.

 

[ester]

DR my post was in response to TrasaM who questioned why the ponies were different to sheep and deer

fwiw, I thought it was normal to use dogs to catch sheep, it certainly has been for all the farmers I have worked with.. for lambs at least when treatment is required (clearly all we need is a big dog to do the same for the ponies )

the whole point is that these are NOT native dartmoor ponies, and I am not convinced that they have any unique characteristics . I am quite happy to have ponies on hills... but they must be those best suitable/evolved for the purpose, with the possibility of at least trying to shoot them if their welfare is severely compromised as Alec reported doing with the welshies.

 

[TrasaM]

These horses are not wild though.

I said 'run wild' . From what people are saying the horses will not allow humans near and will run away if approached. Sounds wild to me

 

[ester]

what about the laws of nature applying to animals which have not been allowed to evolve as nature would have them though?

 

[pip6]

Dartmoor ponies & Dartmoor Hill ponies are diffferent things. The first are a pure breed, the second aren't (any shape or colour), both very hardy. Personally I'd love to see hill ponies replaced by purebred Dartmoors, as Exmoor is home to Exmoors.

I grew up in the New Forest & live near Dartmoor. If you believe the two are in anyway alike I'd suggest you try & cross the moor in bad weather. The NF is very domesticated compared to the moor. Make a wrong move on the moor & it's your life at stake. It's a hard place, that breeds tough people & tough stock. It is no way like the New Forest (which I still adore). If a pony wants to hide, it has a vast area of difficult terrain to do so in.

 

[TrasaM]

what about the laws of nature applying to animals which have not been allowed to evolve as nature would have them though?

There are very few domesticated animals that we've not tweaked to suit our needs and desires. But the ponies we are discussing sound as though they can cope with the hardships the moors can throw at them as can the cattle on the Scottish island, wild deer and feral sheep. If I had my way the wolves would be set free so that nature would then have it's own control and the weak,sick and wounded would be culled naturally. I know, it'll never happen

 

[ester]

absolutely, but if you are then counting them as domesticated should the laws of nature apply to said 'domesticated' animals though?

This is in essence my problem with the situation which I think I have outlined previously.

We tweak the animals to suit us, we then put them on the moor to maintain an ecology that we think is right and then don't act responsibly if it appears that they aren't coping so well.

 

[paddy555]

absolutely, but if you are then counting them as domesticated should the laws of nature apply to said 'domesticated' animals though?

This is in essence my problem with the situation which I think I have outlined previously.

We tweak the animals to suit us, we then put them on the moor to maintain an ecology that we think is right and then don't act responsibly if it appears that they aren't coping so well.

I am really really struggling to understand. The foal is conceived on the moor by whatever moorland stallion comes along. The foal is born on the moor, lives there for the first 5 months or so. They are then brought in, the mares and some fillies put back out, the next foal is born and it repeats itself year on year. So the foal is born out on the moor, grows and produces it's own offspring on the moor and may well die on the moor. They are very hardy. They are in their element in the snow. When it rains they know where to go to get the best shelter. The are generally in very good health. They are not laminitic. What on earth are they if not semi feral? The vast majority are not domesticated in any way. Why on earth does anyone think they are not coping? They are coping very well.

This whole thread seems to have come up as a result of one old mare (and everything gets old) that appeared in the Daily Fail with a lot of human emotions and townie spin attached to her. It would be nice if it has raised the awareness of the foals who now need homes. I have problems with the production of foals that are unwanted and will be killed at 5 months old. A pointless waste. If you want to get upset about welfare concerns then start worrying about the foals. They are the ones weaned at 5 months and often earlier. They are the ones transported to market, brought back again when they don't sell and then killed.
The mares don't actually have that much of a problem .

Having worked with pure bred Dartmoors and now owning hill ponies I know which of the two I prefer.

 

[AmyMay]

Do they have Verderer's on Dartmoor?

 

[ester]

Paddy I was responding to Trasa referring to them as domesticated given that they had previously referred to them as running wild and subject to the laws of nature.. you cannot have it both ways I'm afraid! I completely agree that they are semi-feral but they are not a wild animal as nature would have them and therefore do not agree that means we have no responsibility for them.

What is bred depends on the mares and (more variable I suspect) stallions put on the moor by humans, the dartmoor hill pony association specifically refer to the use of spotties and (and I think) arabs as I quoted previously on this thread neither of which would normally be found on the wilds of dartmoor and I find somewhat irresponsible.. although I suppose if none of said ponies were returned to the moor perhaps not.

With regards to not coping this mare clearly wasn't coping and perhaps a decision not to put her back on the moor should have been made prior to this poin (and no, not to keep her in a cosy stable ) t.

I think the thread has raised some interesting questions although not directly related to the original OP.

 

[paddy555]

With regards to not coping this mare clearly wasn't coping and perhaps a decision not to put her back on the moor should have been made prior to this poin (and no, not to keep her in a cosy stable ) t.

.

the last time this mare was brought in would have been the end of sept 2011. When she was put out she may well have been able to cope perfectly adequately. Sometimes you just cannot tell how an animal is going to be 6 months into the future.

As a matter of interest if the ponies were checked and a mare 4 miles away from a farm was found, say in this condition, what would do you think should be done? (I have described this scenario in my earlier e mail)
Would you bring her in or leave her?

Would you regard the American mustangs as being wild horses? I think most people would yet I understand that many of them are domestic horses turned loose that have adapted. I get the impression that you think spotties arab crosses cannot cope? or maybe I am not understanding you correctly.

 

[ester]

I am not suggesting that spotties/arab crosses wouldn't cope.. more that they did not evolve for that environment (I'm a biologist you have to forgive me ). and that breeding for colour when you want a hill pony should be last on the list , although I think that it has been done for some time now so there are some pretty tough spotties about in them.


I'm not sure I would have done anything different with this mare.. it would depend perhaps on her age and how many foals she had previously had which we don't know.

If presented with the report of her in this condition what I would have done would depend on her temperment.. as some have said some are 'wilder' than others. I would have tried to check on her myself but if super skittish likely not done anything different given that she had a foal at foot (and hence shooting not viable and her condition may well have been foal induced as much as the result of age/illness etc). As I am sure I said earlier though, due to the fact that we only have the daily fail we have no idea and it is quite possible that sort of thing was done .

American mustangs are a very interesting point, as much as regards to them as the ability of the environment to support them as historically I think there is potential evidence that horses were there prior to mustangs but then died out so that the middle bit of coevolution of the ecology didn't really happen.I certainly wouldn't class them as wild horses though despite having a much larger range than dartmoor.

 

[Queenbee]

Ok, a couple of long posts coming up so I can respond to everyone who hass posted in the last couple of days.

I am aware that throughout this thread I have repeated myself a few times… I have tried to address everyone’s posts individually which I suppose is why in some instances I have come across as a stuck record Im sure that there are more posts that have been added overnight that I haven’t managed to read as yet

Sorry I didn’t get to respond last couple of nights, I was out till late! Im at work and writing this response in word having printed off yesterdays and todays posts so bear with me if I don’t quote properly!

Firstly I would like to state a my position as some people seem to be misinterpreting my views and assigning qualities, opinions and levels of experience to me without knowing me.

I have never said these ponies (semi feral) should be checked daily, I did however point out that it would appear that the Welfare Act classifies them as the same as domesticated horses. This is information I happened upon through curiosity, I wondered if there were any guidelines relating to semi feral herds.

I personally think that these ponies should not be classified as the same as domestic ponies/horses… they are clearly not the same. I do not think that they should be checked daily whilst idyllic it is not practical or possible and I think that guidelines should be put in place to differentiate between semi feral and domesticated horses, so that there is a clear recognition of their differences, this includes care and nature of the animal.

I have at no point stated that I know more than anyone else and to be fair Patterdale I find that immensely patronising. . I am very familiar with Dartmoor, and the ponies that inhabit it, I am also familiar with and have experience of keeping stock in similar environments. I have a great deal of contact with farmers and I would point out that I recognise that there are some that take their responsibilities seriously and there are those that don’t. I am sure that there are some on Dartmoor that make concerted efforts to check all their stock (ponies included) on a regular basis.

I am by no means saying that I have all the answers, or even any of them. I am however saying that my opinion is that there is room for improvement, especially with regards to routine checks of the herds. I have put forward a few suggestions… revert to horseback, work in collaboration with other farmers. I believe it was paddy555 who said
‘I can see the point if people learn from discussion as to why their ideas, although good in principal, won’t work. On this thread people are not learning.’
I am actually fully open to hearing about the obstacles, but not being a defeatist, I don’t see recognise the words ‘won’t work’ its all about how can we make things work. It would appear that whist those of us ‘are not learning’, the other side of the coin are those who refuse to have an open mind about improvement/welfare and management. I do not see the word ‘impossible’ and see it as a dead end… merely an obstacle (ask my OH )

I don’t seem to recall suggesting that ponies should be shot dead cleanly (or at all) from 400 yards or any other distance other than point blank., thank you all the same Paddy555 for trying to twist my words.

I fully recognise that semi feral ponies will respond differently in given situations and exhibit higher levels of stress. I also do not necessarily disagree with the fact that in some cases leaving a horse to its own devices is entirely the wrong thing to do. I appreciate that you also recognise that not all the ponies on the moors are afraid of humans, some I recall are ultra friendly… I do not think that this in any way negates the need for routine checking of stock though?

On a further note of suppositions of my level of knowledge and experience, I will be sure to find photos of the Dartmoor ponies and Dartmoor hill ponies that I have had following the drifts, to handle and bring on for new homes.

Furthermore, at no time have I stated that I have a problem with ponies being used for lion meat or being bulleted… far worse fates.

I completely agree with amymay… people can check on their ponies, and they can get close enough to check… on horse back. They are just to pigging lazy to do so.

Dry Rot:

You state that you think that my sentiments would lead to the destruction of the Dartmoor Pony as we know it… are you particularly meaning the DP or the DHP or both? I personally do not see all change as a bad thing. I believe that numbers should be vastly cut back, I have been to the sales, I go regularly and it is clear to me that NOTHING is selling as it should be, most are going for meat, unless scooped up by charities, Even the spottys aren’t selling but the breeding still continues. I am not averse to having a bloody good clear out of all the stock and then putting only the very best back up on the moors, this is how I believe it should be. I also believe that these should be checked upon why is that opinion so wrong? If someone wants to own them, then they should care for them. Whilst level of care is a subjective topic when it comes to comparison between ‘types’ of horse and their needs, I simply refer to routine checks (perhaps once a week or fortnight) to ensure as best they can that all is right with the herd.

Perhaps with increased red tape the farmers that would get rid of their stock are the ones that give no time or consideration to the management and care of them anyway… then where would the hardship be? The stock would be done away with the good stock distributed between other owners, and the people who can’t be bothered would no longer be a problem, more responsible owners would remain. Although I agree with you that more and more red tape is not the answer, but I do think that the current classification within the welfare act is wrong and needs addressing to provide distinction between the two… surely you agree with me on that, a semi feral horse is not a domesticated and therefore should be subjected to the same set of rules? I can’t see why those who are against any kind of change on Dartmoor would want their horses to be classed the same as domesticated ones!

As a side note, very mature gamekeeper threatening arson because somehow he believes that he should be exempt from the rules and regulations that govern everyone else.

What really angers me is your snarky comments, on the one hand you do argue your case well with logical arguments that do need due consideration. However you then make an utter prat out of yourself by posting something as absolutely insulting as “I wonder how long it will be before the ponies are laminitic, on low ground with rugs as QB would like.”

Who are you to say that that is the nature of someone who thinks that these ponies should be regularly checked on??!! My horses have never been laminitic, and I am not someone who produces fat cresty sick ponies for the show ring. Just because I believe that these ponies should have someone who is responsible for their welfare (and takes that responsibility seriously), and should have some level of care and regular checking, doesn’t mean that I want to see them wrapped up in cotton wool and taken off the moors. Your crass and sweeping generalisation is akin to saying that all people who are against Hunting are no nothing townies, or that those who support hunting are all rural toffs and gentry. Making such sweeping generalisations against people who do not hold the same views as you, purely shows you in a bad light.

*breathes*

 

[Queenbee]

Patterdale:
Whilst I understand to some extent with the issues of stress, location, remoteness, my main point is that I simply think that the ponies are not monitored as well/regularly as they should be and that as an owner, it is their responsibility, I am merely arguing that in my opinion horses should be checked more often (my ideal would be weekly but fortnightly is ok too). I am not saying that the countryside should be scoured until every last pony is found, but I am saying that regular haunts, drinking and grazing areas should be checked.

We both disagree with each other, that is clear, but in my opinion these are not fully wild stock as they have been to some extent selectively bred and are owned and as such should not be treated as wild, neither should be subject to the laws of natural selection, equally they are not domestic and should not be treated or classified as such. Whatever the animal, if the inevitable end is death and we are able to bring that about swiftly and with as little suffering as possible, then why not? Why allow the animal to suffer more than is necessary? Not all ponies that are sick or injured and/or dying would benefit from such intervention, nor would it always be easy… but there are some cases where it would be applicable… It is also one thing for a horse to die because it broke its leg and despite people looking for it, it remained unfound and died…. It is quite another to say that a horse broke its leg and suffered and eventually died because no one bothered routinely checking their stock. Would it have died anyway? Yes, should unnecessary suffering be avoided at all costs, absolutely. And I agree that there will be cases where that unnecessary suffering is classed as the stress it would experience, other times it would be the absolute pain the horse would experience if humans didn’t intervene.

To allow unnecessary pain and/or suffering in the misguided name of nature is sick. And just when did suffering in the name of nature become any less bloody cruel anyway?!

I do not dispute that you care, I believe that two people can care greatly about the same issue but have two different view points… this does not necessarily mean that either is entirely correct, It normally indicates that there is room to meet in the middle.

I agree it makes for an interesting discussion.

Ribbons, I love your speculation that I have no experiences, knowledge or insight from which I can legitimately draw my arguments, you are wrong, I think you will also see from my post history that I did not sit at my desk researching. I was simply curious as to whether there were regulations and how they differed from domesticated horses…. I was also shocked to see that there were no differences in the act for domesticate and semi feral ponies, to me it is obvious that they are not the same. I’m really sorry but I fail to see what your comment regarding my horse has to do with this thread,I merely used an example to show that if any other person in this country with a domesticated horse did not give appropriate care to their horse and their horses welfare suffered as a result, they would be held accountable, the question here is what is deemed ‘appropriate’ for semi feral animals, and I personally don’t think anyone has got this definition right yet, I also think that anyone who does look after livestock of any description should have guidelines to help them know what is right and wrong, not everyone is born with a moral compass, let alone a brain.

TrasaM:
These are semi feral ponies, they are not wild and they are owned by someone… they are not subject to the laws of nature, someone is responsible for their care. ‘If horses could talk, and were given a choice….’ Yes, but they aren’t humans.

Also in response to your other post… not all horses are nervy and flighty… but on that thread, my OH has nervy cattle, they hate anyone being near them and have their balls off and chucked out until ready for coming in in the winter. Not the same thing, but they hate human contact and avoid it at all costs… I can still get near them when Im on the horse though… and despite them being tricksy, OH checks them regulary.

You made a comment that it sounds that theses ponies can cope with the hardships on the moors…. I don’t disagree with that, and I don’t think that is what the main topic is related to, although this thread seems to be covering a lot of topics relating to the DP and DHP which I for one find really interesting. Anyway, I digress…You also ask “why doesn’t anyone think these ponies are coping… they are coping very well”. I agree that these ponies are really hardy and well up to coping with and surviving on the moors, it is more a question of what level of welfare/care/intervention/monitoring should be provided by their owners… logistically can it be done and how can this best be achieved? It is merely a discussion about peoples experiences, views and opinions on the matter. I also agree that the essence of the problem is that currently no differentiation is made between domesticated and semi feral animals, when there clearly is a huge difference… Im just not sure I agree with the interpretation of the differences as they currently stand (with specific regard to checking on them). There are also a great many horses that are domesticated, hardy and able to cope, this does not mean we can neglect our duty as an owner.

Ester…

I totally agree with your comments re: natural selection, selective breeding and evolution.... I also believe that if someone wants to own these horses and profit from them they should be putting the time in caring for them, should this not be the case I would far rather see the DHP done away with and the pure and a focus put on the DP.




Below is my opinion:
Finally, off the top what would I do? I don’t know, but I think that there needs to be some real differentiation between domestic and semi feral. It needs to be recognised that people have a duty to care to these ponies that extends beyond the drifts. It should also be recognised that each situation where a pony is should be judged on its own merit, the stress may be too much for one pony to justify intervention, but on the other hand the pain level may justify intervention. At all times, words like ‘nature’ and ‘cost effective’ and ‘too difficult’ should be thrown out the window and only one thing should be forefront of the mid : the pony’s welfare… we are not barbarians. I personally would like to see a dramatic reduction in ponies on the moor with a return to the traditional DP being favoured and protected. Id be far happier if the ponies were bought down off the moors and all the lesser stock shot, the decent stuff put back up there and the focus be put back on to DP… but then Im a traditionalist, but the DHP aren’t making anything… but as always are continuing to breed just adding to the problems. Every spotty pony I have seen at the sales failed to sell. I would rather see people checking weekly or fortnightly for peace of mind and intervention into suffering if appropriate. I would also suggest that people stop saying its not worth it, if you only get to see 50 percent of your stock once a month and see them with a leg at 4 corners and eating happily then you haven’t been completely lax in your responsibility. I would also encourage a return to the use of horses and not just quads for access issues


I am an open minded person so if theres one person out here in cyber space that can tell me why weekly/fortnightly (or at the worst monthly checks couldn’t be made please do tell, furthermore, there is not one argument that I have read that has convinced me that these ponies don’t need checking, these are hardy fantastic little ponies, capable of withstanding the harshest of terrain and elements… but accidents happen, and we do have a duty of care, as owners… whatever ‘type of horse’ we own, to not check on the welfare of our animals just doesn’t wash with me.

 

[pip6]

I do totally agree with removing poor stock & only putting DP back on the moor. There are plenty of (often poor) hill ponies on Bodmin. There is no need to have them on Dartmoor, they are purely there for money. It's fantastic seeing herds of Exmoors on the moor, to return Dartmoor to the same state IMHO would only enhance it's natural beauty.

 

[Queenbee]

finally Patterdale...

You have had a go at me in the following post:

QB can't quote as on phone.

I did post a 'real argument' a few pages back which you conveniently ignored, and I'm not going to be paraphrasing it again here.

And I wasn't suggesting that you take annual leave to check other peoples ponies.....more so that you can see for yourself what it is actually like trying to find and treat wild animals on the moor, before giving all of us chapter and verse on it
Obviously you seem to know more than most of the people working on dartmoor, perhaps you could give them some tips on how best to care for the ponies??

It really really gets to me when people who have no experience of something go on and on like this, and brand others (that they don't know) as cruel and uncaring.

So do it. Go to dartmoor and walk a mile in their shoes.







(you still wouldn't be anywhere near the ponies though)

You then followed this up with an even more strongly worded post:

QB you attack me with the 'you haven't given a reasoned argument' tack, but whenever I do you completely ignore it.

I agree with a previous poster......your sentiments are lovely but in this case they DO NOT work.

I probably won't bother to reply again as whenever I do with a sound argument you just conveniently ignore it

so I reviewed the entire thread this is the sum total of what you had posted. I see nothing that constitutes an argument there:

Me neither! Never seen hill sheep??

The weak ones will die and the strong ones thrive and breed. That's no ones fault, that's nature.

Mollycoddling them will only cause more problems in the future when the weaker animals are allowed to breed and thus create more problems.

Feral horses and natural selection is 'natural horsemanship' at it's base level. It's not cruel, it's nature.

Perhaps they should all be stabled and strip grazed?
They'd probably be FAR happier then.....

QB I think you should ask to go along with someone who owns them and check on the hill ponies twice a week. Book yourself some annual leave and let us know how it goes when you get back. You'll need some good boots and some kind of hovercraft/silent helicopter. Along with a trailer for your assorted guns, medicines, mobile operating theatre and various pony catching paraphernalia.


Can we all also please remember, that this is the Daily Fail we are talking about? And to take it's Bambi-esque views with a vat of salt?

I do agree that "mollycoddling" would lead to weakness but I do not think regularly checking horse is classified as mollycoddling, neither is putting a horse out of its misery if it is suffering

 

[Queenbee]

I do totally agree with removing poor stock & only putting DP back on the moor. There are plenty of (often poor) hill ponies on Bodmin. There is no need to have them on Dartmoor, they are purely there for money. It's fantastic seeing herds of Exmoors on the moor, to return Dartmoor to the same state IMHO would only enhance it's natural beauty.

I agree, now I live in cornwall Im often up on bodmin... Its not just Dartmoor that has these problems sadly

 

[Patterdale]

QB - I have just read your reply with interest, and thought how nice that you had bothered YO reply to everyone. Plenty don't.

I THEN read your very clever post where you claimed to have quoted everything I've written on this thread.....and got really annoyed, tbh.
That is NOT everything I have written on the thread, you have just quoted some snarky comments all together, whilst conveniently ignoring my other posts.

Whilst still not agreeing with all your views, your long and reasoned response had make u go up in my estimation.
But that last post was the height of unfairness and spite.

If you are going to claim to quote fully, then that is what you should do.

I will not be replying to this thread again as I have said all I wish to say on the relevant subject, and tbh am annoyed at being wrongly quoted as you have done.

 

[Queenbee]

QB - I have just read your reply with interest, and thought how nice that you had bothered YO reply to everyone. Plenty don't.

I THEN read your very clever post where you claimed to have quoted everything I've written on this thread.....and got really annoyed, tbh.
That is NOT everything I have written on the thread, you have just quoted some snarky comments all together, whilst conveniently ignoring my other posts.

Whilst still not agreeing with all your views, your long and reasoned response had make u go up in my estimation.
But that last post was the height of unfairness and spite.

If you are going to claim to quote fully, then that is what you should do.

I will not be replying to this thread again as I have said all I wish to say on the relevant subject, and tbh am annoyed at being wrongly quoted as you have done.

No patterdale it is not everything you have written on this thread, but it is everything you had written that I could see from both the thread and your post history that had been written up until the point that you posted accusing me of ignoring your argument, If I have missed something I TRULY CANT SEE it, if you would be able to re post the post you mean, Id be happy to reply... but I simply can not see anything other than those 4!

 

[AmyMay]

So, to sum up the opinions of the few: These ponies should not be subject of any welfare monitoring or concerns, and just left to their fate.

What a sad attitude.

 

[paddy555]

QB, where are all the people on horseback going to come from to check these ponies weekly or even fortnightly? I can think of many pony owners who don't ride. In our area I doubt there would be enough ordinary riders full stop.

If a pony is injured in an inaccessible place I don't necessarily think it is kinder to put it out of it's misery. The only way of doing that is to shoot it. You have to get right up to it for that. It would simply go into natural panic mode and run off despite it's possible serious injuries. That is not welfare in my view. It may make the human feel better but not the pony.

I feel you are giving the impression that no one gives a damn about the ponies other than at the drift. That is simply not the case. Ill ponies are reported and action taken. Checking, at any interval, would only be effective if you checked and counted everything. If you miss any it is pointless. It may well be the 1 missed pony that has the problem.

 

[Queenbee]

So, to sum up the opinions of the few: These ponies should not be subject of any welfare monitoring or concerns, and just left to their fate.

What a sad attitude.

I agree

QB, where are all the people on horseback going to come from to check these ponies weekly or even fortnightly? I can think of many pony owners who don't ride. In our area I doubt there would be enough ordinary riders full stop.

If a pony is injured in an inaccessible place I don't necessarily think it is kinder to put it out of it's misery. The only way of doing that is to shoot it. You have to get right up to it for that. It would simply go into natural panic mode and run off despite it's possible serious injuries. That is not welfare in my view. It may make the human feel better but not the pony.

I feel you are giving the impression that no one gives a damn about the ponies other than at the drift. That is simply not the case. Ill ponies are reported and action taken. Checking, at any interval, would only be effective if you checked and counted everything. If you miss any it is pointless. It may well be the 1 missed pony that has the problem.

1: Im talking about the people who own the ponies… throughout my posts I have consistently expressed the view that it is the owners responsibility. Furthermore, with a good horse and a stock saddle its like sitting in an armchair with or without riding experience. Im also saying that where possible it be an approach that is adopted. In years gone by this was the method used, and quod bikes didn’t exist… its not that long ago. There are many options for those that can be bothered.

2: I have said that I do not believe that all cases would merit causing the pony to suffer stress. However an injured pony that is in pain and therefore going to slowly suffer during its demise… yes I think a bit of stress is acceptable if it means it dies a far swifter death. Neither way will make the pony feel better, but it will put it out of its suffering faster, this is welfare.

3: No you are right, people do give a damn, as this thread clearly shows In all honesty I do not believe that people who have a different opinion to myself necessarily are uncaring of the DP/DHP I think that would be a very narrow minded view to have. I simply believe that different values are at play. My definition of care is simply a different one. You seem to have missed the part of my post where I state that I don’t believe that anyone has it correct and perhaps this indicates that a ‘meet in the middle’ approach is what is in the ponies best interest. So basically you feel I give the impression that no one gives a damn, whereas I feel you are wilfully misinterpreting my words, perhaps the fact that you feel the need to defend with attack says more about you and your view point than it does me.

Ill ponies are reported by the public, and whilst that is very good spirited of them and it is a blessing that they behave in such a manner, it is not their responsibility it is the owners. I agree, that the best possible way of checking these ponies would be to head count each and every one of them, but this isn’t practical (as we both know). Going out and checking regular areas, seeing what ponies you can is not pointless. It certainly isn’t pointless if one of those in the percentage you see is in dire need of attention. It certainly isn’t an approach that covers everything, but it covers more than current methods. At the end of the day you do what you can, and it is my firm belief that more CAN be done and therefore the owners are not doing what they CAN.