dying pony on dartmoor

[Queenbee]

... Bloody phone! I must say I'm not au fait with chagford though

 

[Spiritedly]

QB not all the farmers bring their ponies in at the same time, the ponies are secondary to their other farm responsibilities As a result they are brought in as and when the farmer has time. The price at that auction seems very high, I believe the farmers that HOPE work with let the ponies go for meat money.

 

[Queenbee]

I don't quite understand though ur talking about when they bring their ponies in from the moors, I'm talking about regular routine checks of livestock when they're on the moors. But yes I agree it is sad that they treat their responsibility to their ponies as secondary or less important

 

[Spot_the_Risk]

This was a handled pony sale though, all at least halter broken, and generally not just weanlings. I couldn't find any other sale reports with prices, there is a minimum set, not sure of the exact amount but it'll be well under £100 including chipping and passport. Owners have also been told for a few years now not to bring bay colts as they don't sell, I would assume they're culled out by the local knackerman for zoo meat.

Auctioneers are Rendells of Chagford, and Ward & Chowen of Tavistock, root around on their sites and I would think you'll find catalogues of sales in the next month, and possibley older sale reports. I spoke to a farmer at a W&C sale a few years ago whose selection of coloured, very small, colt weanlings had not sold, there was about 13 of them, their dams were of course alraedy in foal for next year, and the farmer was probably going to take the weanlings home and shoot them all.

 

[Queenbee]

This was a handled pony sale though, all at least halter broken, and generally not just weanlings. I couldn't find any other sale reports with prices, there is a minimum set, not sure of the exact amount but it'll be well under £100 including chipping and passport. Owners have also been told for a few years now not to bring bay colts as they don't sell, I would assume they're culled out by the local knackerman for zoo meat.

Auctioneers are Rendells of Chagford, and Ward & Chowen of Tavistock, root around on their sites and I would think you'll find catalogues of sales in the next month, and possibley older sale reports. I spoke to a farmer at a W&C sale a few years ago whose selection of coloured, very small, colt weanlings had not sold, there was about 13 of them, their dams were of course alraedy in foal for next year, and the farmer was probably going to take the weanlings home and shoot them all.

They certainly aren't selling for 100 or more at Exeter (now Newton Abbott) Sawdye and Harris sales thats for sure However, I have to say that even if they were selling for decent money, the owners just don't seem to bother taking their responsibilities seriously. I personally think that the welfare act is a lovely idea, however in reality the management of semi feral horses does need to be looked at separately, as the situation and environment that these horses are kept in IS different... but at present their basic welfare needs are not being met adequately enough by their owners. Whether that will happen or not is another matter.

 

[Patterdale]

QB I think you should ask to go along with someone who owns them and check on the hill ponies twice a week. Book yourself some annual leave and let us know how it goes when you get back. You'll need some good boots and some kind of hovercraft/silent helicopter. Along with a trailer for your assorted guns, medicines, mobile operating theatre and various pony catching paraphernalia.


Can we all also please remember, that this is the Daily Fail we are talking about? And to take it's Bambi-esque views with a vat of salt?

 

[Dry Rot]

If there are to be special regulations for feral ponies, there will have to be similar regulations for the management of the various breeds of native sheep found on the uninhabited Scottish islands. How on earth could these populations be monitored on a regular basis?

Those who watched Adam's Farm on TV tonight might have see the mention of the Swona cattle which have gone feral on one of the uninhabited Orkney isles. From what I understand, they are visited a couple of times a year -- at most. One old bull was very old and obviously will not make it through the winter. I got the impression that he would be left in peace for his life to end naturally, which didn't seem too far away to me.

[youtube]ngeTmML4f-Q[/youtube]

 

[paddy555]

QB I think you should ask to go along with someone who owns them and check on the hill ponies twice a week. Book yourself some annual leave and let us know how it goes when you get back. You'll need some good boots and some kind of hovercraft/silent helicopter. Along with a trailer for your assorted guns, medicines, mobile operating theatre and various pony catching paraphernalia.

love it!!!! looking forward to the update QB.

 

[katiesdolphin]

^^^^ BRILLIANT^^^^

 

[Queenbee]

QB I think you should ask to go along with someone who owns them and check on the hill ponies twice a week. Book yourself some annual leave and let us know how it goes when you get back. You'll need some good boots and some kind of hovercraft/silent helicopter. Along with a trailer for your assorted guns, medicines, mobile operating theatre and various pony catching paraphernalia.


Can we all also please remember, that this is the Daily Fail we are talking about? And to take it's Bambi-esque views with a vat of salt?

Awww, funny aren't you

Just please explain to me why I should book time off to go and view someone elses livestock

I am merely stating that in my opinion owners should regularly check their ponies... Im sure you will have seen from my poll that this is the opinion of the majority on here. I certainly would check on these ponies regularly if they were mine. This has nothing to do with the daily mail, this has to do with the care of the animals... it is merely a by product of a news article posted by the DF. I am sure that you are probably of the opinion that things could not possibly be managed better than they are on the moors, but in my opinion there is always room for improvement and it just takes someone who actually gives a damn about the animals they are supposed to take care of to actually try and improve the situation. I am not saying it would completely eliminate the problems, but it is akin to risk assessment and management. You assess the situation and put procedures in place to minimise the risk.

It is quite obvious to me that I (and others on here) am of a different opinion to people like you and DR, I am not trying to change your opinion or attitude, I suspect people who do not regard the lives of these ponies as important and deserving of care are not willing to actually consider any different methods, prefering to hide behind the arguments 'its the way its always been' I am merely presenting my views, I will however point out that I have not really felt such an extreme need as you have to resort to sarcasm and making a joke of the issue. I can only assume you have repeatedly resorted to such methods because you have no real sound argument for owners not bothering to check on the ponies.

 

[Charem]

Asbo's owner used to run a herd of ponies on the forest, although now there is just one half sister out there. We make an effort to find her at least once a week although we usually see her more often whilst out riding anyway. She's extremely feral, turns her arse on us when we get too close and is generally rather vile towards everyone. She didn't come in on this years drift as as per usual she went in to hiding. Whilst I understand the New Forest is tiny in comparisson to Dartmoor I can safely say that I know that Bracken (Asbo's feral sister) won't suddenly turn up on the other side of the forest. She generally roams around 500ish acres. As do the other ponies.

IMO the owners of the hill ponies should be up there on horseback checking their livestock, just like any other livestock owner would. If the hill ponies can get there then so can someone mounted on a hillbred pony. I don't know how it works on the moor but here if we see an injured, sick, or poor looking pony we ride over to it to check the brand and then report it to the area agister. He can then contact the owner and get the problem rectified. If the pony needs to come in then it is driven down to the nearest pen.

Feral or not, owners have a duty of care and IMO if they can't keep to it then they shouldn't have the animals in the first place.

 

[Queenbee]

Asbo's owner used to run a herd of ponies on the forest, although now there is just one half sister out there. We make an effort to find her at least once a week although we usually see her more often whilst out riding anyway. She's extremely feral, turns her arse on us when we get too close and is generally rather vile towards everyone. She didn't come in on this years drift as as per usual she went in to hiding. Whilst I understand the New Forest is tiny in comparisson to Dartmoor I can safely say that I know that Bracken (Asbo's feral sister) won't suddenly turn up on the other side of the forest. She generally roams around 500ish acres. As do the other ponies.

IMO the owners of the hill ponies should be up there on horseback checking their livestock, just like any other livestock owner would. If the hill ponies can get there then so can someone mounted on a hillbred pony. I don't know how it works on the moor but here if we see an injured, sick, or poor looking pony we ride over to it to check the brand and then report it to the area agister. He can then contact the owner and get the problem rectified. If the pony needs to come in then it is driven down to the nearest pen.

Feral or not, owners have a duty of care and IMO if they can't keep to it then they shouldn't have the animals in the first place.

All I have to say to that is:

Someone with experience and a sense of responsibility proving once again that routine checking is not as some would have us believe impossible

I totally agree with you... p.s. If I book some annual leave as suggested... Im coming to stay with you, see how its done properly

 

[jrp204]

With the price of hill pony's being so low, most farmers treatment of a sick or injured pony would be a lead injection. Dartmoor is 368sq miles most sick animals will never be found, the pony's form an important part of the moors ecology, both alive and dead.

 

[Patterdale]

QB can't quote as on phone.

I did post a 'real argument' a few pages back which you conveniently ignored, and I'm not going to be paraphrasing it again here.

And I wasn't suggesting that you take annual leave to check other peoples ponies.....more so that you can see for yourself what it is actually like trying to find and treat wild animals on the moor, before giving all of us chapter and verse on it
Obviously you seem to know more than most of the people working on dartmoor, perhaps you could give them some tips on how best to care for the ponies??

It really really gets to me when people who have no experience of something go on and on like this, and brand others (that they don't know) as cruel and uncaring.

So do it. Go to dartmoor and walk a mile in their shoes.







(you still wouldn't be anywhere near the ponies though)

 

[paddy555]

It really really gets to me when people who have no experience of something go on and on like this, and brand others (that they don't know) as cruel and uncaring.

So do it. Go to dartmoor and walk a mile in their shoes.

(you still wouldn't be anywhere near the ponies though)

I agree. I can see the point if people learn from discussion as to why their ideas, although good in principle, won't work. On this thread people are not learning. All of us who live and ride here understand the problems. We don't like to see ponies suffering. We do what we can for injured ponies on the moor however sometimes you have to make a judgement when you seen an injured pony that is 4 miles from the nearest yard and cattle crush. (running a pony through a cattle crush is the only way of apprehending them)
Do I alert someone, the pony who may be close to the end of it's life (and we all die) will be herded by dogs and bikes at speed (you cannot herd ponies slowly) a considerable distance over very rough country. It would then he driven into a farmyard which it would hate as it would have memories of the annual drift. It would then be driven through a cattle race and crush to be shot in the head. Idylic though it seems ponies cannot be shot dead cleanly at 400yards. We have farmers here not marksmen.

The other alternative is that the terminally ill or old pony is left where it is in the natural surroundings it has lived in all it's life to quietly die.

The conclusion is the same at the end of the day it is a question of which is less stressful. Some of the ponies are very very wild, some live in areas where they are in more contact with people eg the main Haytor car park.
This particular pony would have been in an area with farms some of whom put out hay in the winter. It would have been less stressful for her to come down towards the farm. Some of the others would take one look at people and run a mile.

QB if you are concerned about pony welfare then do something to help. Come to the sales and take a couple of foals on. That will save them from lion meat.

 

[Patterdale]

Paddy, couldn't agree more.

 

[AmyMay]

I really can't see why QB is coming in for quite such a bashing. Is there anything wrong with expecting welfare standards to extend to all animals? What makes these ponies so less deserving?

In the good old days, when these animals were actually worth something, they were checked regularly on......... Horseback, with no problem at all.

You'll need some good boots and some kind of hovercraft/silent helicopter. Along with a trailer for your assorted guns, medicines, mobile operating theatre and various pony catching paraphernalia.

What a completely unnecessary, snide and rude comment to make.

 

[katiesdolphin]

Oh but saying the ponies are ill treated because someone can't get to them everyday because its impossible and saying they arnt cared about by owner and how cruel they are that's fine? Oh no snide or nastsy remarks there, amymay!

 

[AmyMay]

Oh but saying the ponies are ill treated because someone can't get to them everyday because its impossible and saying they arnt cared about by owner and how cruel they are that's fine? Oh no snide or nastsy remarks there, amymay!

No, that's not snide or nasty - but an observation and someone's opinion.

 

[Dry Rot]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I applaud QB's sentiments but, long term, if adopted, I think they would lead to the destruction of the Dartmoor pony as we know it.

Most things come down to economics. Increase the regulation and hill farmers will simply get rid of the ponies. As if they hadn't enough red tape already!

There's a gamekeeper not far from me who was pestered by conservationists about the management of heather moorland. Finally, his patience snapped. He said, "Look, if you people don't stop bothering me with your rules and regulations and bits of paper, I'm going to go up onto the moor at 3am one Sunday and drop a match on it. What will you do then?". I think he had quite a point. They decided he wasn't doing such a bad job after all and he was better left alone to get on with it!

 

[Queenbee]

Oh but saying the ponies are ill treated because someone can't get to them everyday because its impossible and saying they arnt cared about by owner and how cruel they are that's fine? Oh no snide or nastsy remarks there, amymay!

Could you PLEASE point our where exactly I stated that in my opinion these ponies should be checked every day? I think you may need glasses I would also like to point out that NEGLECT is as much a form of ill treatment as any other form. Although I believe that I did use the word neglect quite frequently, as opposed to Ill treatment

 

[ester]

QB if you are concerned about pony welfare then do something to help. Come to the sales and take a couple of foals on. That will save them from lion meat.

tbh I'm not really sure how that 'helps' given that they aren't the ones living on the moor. I don't really have issue with them going for meat.

 

[Patterdale]

QB you attack me with the 'you haven't given a reasoned argument' tack, but whenever I do you completely ignore it.

I agree with a previous poster......your sentiments are lovely but in this case they DO NOT work.

I probably won't bother to reply again as whenever I do with a sound argument you just conveniently ignore it

 

[Queenbee]

I'm sorry patterdale... I absolutely am not ignoring u. I'm currently at work and only went online for a couple of mins, my boss is now in the room at her computer and I'm only in work till 12 so have to crack on, I'm more than happy to respond to your post when I get home tonight, but currently only on my phone. X

 

[Patterdale]

Plus, I really don't think QB has come in for a 'bashing' from anyone. She has an opinion which I, and others it seems, believe is wrong.

Worse than that, I believe that views such as these from people who don't know what it is actually about can be so dangerous.
It's true - more red tape, more regulation = the demise of hill ponies such as these.

It is NOT CRUEL - it is nature.

There have been some excellent posts proving this.....paddy555's last one for example.

It is because I CARE about the hill ponies (and other semi feral animals who would have a knock on effect from legislation here being changed) that I have bothered to post. Think about it.

 

[Patterdale]

QB no worries.
There are many strong views on this. Everyone has the hill ponies' welfare at the foremost of their thoughts - I happen to disagree with you on how this is best achieved.

But that's what makes HHO so interesting.

 

[ribbons]

QB you asked why you should book time off to go and view other people's horses, as patterdale had suggested.

Possibly because it just might give you the necessary knowledge and experience FIRST HAND to then tell that owner how to do the job that you have decided they are failing in.
Rather than sitting at your desk researching rules and regulations and describing how you care for your fully domesticated horse kept in conditions which include stable, fenced pasture, electricity, running water and good access.

 

[TrasaM]

What is everyone's problem with accepting the laws of nature? The ponies run wild and live as horses are meant to live, with all it's hardships. I would never inflict suffering on any animal but sometimes we just have to accept that nature can be, and frequently is, cruel. Ok, the thread is about horses but how is it different to wild deer or sheep? If horses could talk and were given a choice of living as the moor ponies do or being a ridden horse I wonder what they would chose? There is one particular RS horse that i frequently ride and I would love to see him run free where no one pulls his mouth and kicks his sides and forces him into an outline. He might not live as long but he'd at least be happy whilst he is alive.

 

[ester]

it isn't nature..as I have stated several times previously these are human bred and selected animals.

If they were/had been permitted to be subject to only evolutionary pressures I would have no problem with them being left to their own devices. Instead they have been selected by us, for example for the addition of colour and therefore we should not have the same expectations of them as of other wild animals. and for instance I don't feel the same about exmoors.

Deer, are much more natural and only selected by humans by hunting, exerting a selective pressure.

Sheep, I'm not so up on my sheep history but given that farmers only make any money if their sheep survive I wonder if any human selection on their breeding has been somewhat better, particularly as their colour doesn't really matter.

 

[AmyMay]

What is everyone's problem with accepting the laws of nature? The ponies run wild and live as horses are meant to live, with all it's hardships.

These horses are not wild though.