Ebay help - buyer damaged my saddle!!!

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laura-c

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I listed a saddle on ebay last week for 7 days. After a couple of days a buyer was interested and kept asking for a Buy It Now price. Settled on a price (£250 + £20 postage) and I arranged courier to have it sent out costing me £16.80. Courier returned it as undelivered due to not being able to find the address (it was a portacabin apparently, which I was not informed of before booking the courier). I then had to resend it on a different carrier (costing me £18.40). So far, I have paid out all these fees in carriage (sent the second one on overnight delivery as I wanted to get it there for the buyer. Item was packaged fantastically by myself in a large box, loads and loads of bubble wrap and shrink wrap to protect it and covered in fragile stickers.

I bought the saddle as 17" 18 months ago. My mare wore it alongside a 17" GP, and a 17" Prestige Golden Star. The saddle was in good used condition as stated in the advert and I kept up good means of contact with the seller and was very honest about the condition of the saddle. It had no damage whatsoever apart from some slight tarnishing to the name badges (mentioned in listing and photographed).

Now the seller has contacted me to tell me that the saddle seat measures more like 17.5 not 17 inches and would be getting her saddler to check it. I explained that I bought the saddle from a reputable saddler, in good faith of it being 17" as he fitted it for me, and it fit my mare really well, as did her two other 17" saddles
I explained that I hadn't physically measured the seat myself, as again, I bought the saddle as 17" so would have no reason to doubt it. She then replied saying that her saddler had checked the saddle and it did measure more like 17.5, also that the saddle has a 2.5cm rip in the flap (its synthetic) and she wants to return it. She also said that the saddle was in good condition for a used saddle and thanked me for packaging it so well.

Now, I can CATEGORICALLY state that the saddle was in good condition when sent out, and definitely did NOT have a dirty great rip in it- I am now panicking that I am going to have to give this woman a refund, and never mind being out of pocket of all the costs I have paid out (paypal fees, ebay fees, 2 x couriers!!) I am also going to be left with a saddle that is worth absolutely nothing and no money!

The ONLY explanation is that the buyer has damaged the saddle herself, as it was perfect when it left me, and she even admitted herself, the saddle was very, very well packaged. There is no way any damage could have been done to the flap the way it was packaged, I am sure of it.

I really don't know where to go from here, I know ebay sides with the buyers most of the time but it seems very unfair in this situation. I would have reluctantly taken the saddle back with the regards to the seat size (as to be fair I didn't physically measure it myself) but now it is damaged, it is worth nothing to me and I won't be able to sell on... what do I do?????
 
What a rubbish situation but TBH I think you will be receiving back a damaged saddle that is worth nothing. Ebay is very likely to side with the buyer, the only way I can possibly see you might win this is to contact ebay with pictures showing no damage with a copy of the email from the buyer stating how well packaged it was.

Be careful that she doesn't end up with a refund before you receive the saddle back....
 
Do you have photos of the saddle of its condition before you sent it? The ones in the listing will do. Also, make sure you have the listing wording etc saved somewhere. Have a look if in the listing it said ''no returns accepted''. I would also make sure you have all the messages sent between you and her. Ask her to send you photos of the damage.
Compare it to the pictures before it was sent.
With all this, you have a pretty strong case that it was in fact her who damaged it, so you can email her saying that you are sorry that she is unhappy but, you wont accept a return as stated in the listing (if it is), you also have photos of the saddle before it was sent as well as the wording in the listing, both of which confirm that the saddle was not damaged before it left you. And that you cannot be held responsible for any damage that occurred after the saddle was sent, so during delivery and after delivery. If she wishes, she can contact the courier to enquire about the damage, but it was not done by you.
That's what I would do anyway :) Also you could go on the 24h chat on ebay helpline thing, and tell them your problem before she gets to them first :) Just ask them what they think is the best course of action and what their advice on this situation is. :) good luck!
 
sophiebailey said:
Did your listing say you would accept refunds? If not tell her to swivel!!
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This is also an option BUT only if she didn't pay by paypal. If she paid by paypal the chances are she will just open a dispute and will end up getting her money back unless ebay votes in your favour, regardless of weather you stated no refunds. She will play the 'item not as described' card in which case 'no refunds' has no bearing.
 
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This is just a total nightmare! I have replied with this.


Hi. I bought the saddle from my saddler as 17". I'm sorry you have found this measurement to be slightly out, I had no reason to measure the saddle either when buying it myself or listing it here as I bought it in good faith of it being 17" & it fit my horse perfectly as did her other two 17" saddles. I'd have taken the saddle back if this was the only issue as I could have sold it on, however I know absolutely nothing about any rip in the saddle whatsoever. The saddle was in no way, shape or form ripped or torn in any way & I have photos to prove this. It was sent extremely well packaged by myself & a colleague, as you have agreed, so there is no way any damage could've been done to it whilst in transit. A synthetic saddle is light & was wrapped in layers & layers of bubble wrap & crumpled up shrink wrap with nothing sharp whatsoever so there is no way it could have been damaged in transit if the box arrived in tact, which you admit it did. I was perfectly honest in my listing & discussed with you over many emails the condition of the saddle, including the tarnishing to the badges & usual signs of wear associated with 2nd hand saddles. I am a decent seller with 100% percent feedback myself. I have tried to do my best sending it out as soon as I could for you & paying twice the courier fees as I did not realise it was a portacabin as hadn't been told. I'm really upset to find the saddle has been damaged since & just can't see it fair for me to take it back & issue a refund when it has now been damaged when out of my hands & cannot have been damaged in transit as agreed by yourself. I would not only be out of pocket for the price of the saddle plus 2x courier fees, ebay fees & paypal fees, I'd have a damaged saddle that is effectively worthless when I know that the saddle was not damaged when sent out. I'm sorry it doesn't fit your horse, I'd genuinely have taken it back but now that it is damaged I just can't afford to lose that kind of money :(


I have photos of it yes the ones taken in the listing and no rips can be seen. But I guess she could argue it was damaged after the photos. Thanks for your advice, I will call ebay in the morning.

I have a hideous feeling that I am going to have to give this woman a refund...!!
 
Tell her to send it back at her expense, and remind her that she'll be paying postage both ways. She might then try for the 'partial refund' scam, again insist that she sends it back, tracked, signed for and insured. She might be trying it on. If you get a damaged saddle back then report her to Ebay for malicious damage, if she's done it before then they'll perhaps view you're case with more sympathy. The tide does seem to be turning slightly against the scammers on Ebay.
It's frustrating - I'm currently waiting for an unpaid item case to time out so I can relist..
 
I am not sure but I think that Buy it Now sales come under the distance selling regs whereby the seller can return it without any reason having to be given. However they would have to return it undamaged and I don't know how you go about being compensated for that. I suggest you tell them to return it at their expense and you will refund them. When you get the saddle you can inspect it and if it is damaged you maybe inform the buyer and try to sort it out from there. Also, do you know any lawyer friends that can help?
 
Has she sent photos of the damage? She could have damaged it whilst trying it on her horse and thought she would try her luck. I am not sure I would sell anything of value on ebay now :( I think in any case she should pay for the second courier fees as it was her fault the item could not be delivered.
 
Hmmm, I think you could be in trouble here with the size of the saddle alone. The buyer could argue that it quite simply wasn't the size advertised (damage or not) and that would be grounds for returning it. Some saddles don't stand up to the measuring test we all stand by (Kieffer for example, which are often advertised as eg 17.5 when in fact they aren't made in half sizes as standard but would measure that way by Joe Public). Saying you assumed in good faith it was 17" won't necessarily cut it, it's like selling a car and saying you always believed it was 1100cc when in fact it was 1000cc (poor comparison but you get my drift?). The onus is down to you as the seller to verify the details before listing.

I would ask her for written confirmation from her saddler as to the size they presume it to be. If she's really had it measured then it won't be a problem for her to provide this. Is she too far away for you to go and measure it there? Do you know of anywhere that has the same saddle that you can measure yourself to see if they come up odd sizes across the range?

With regard to the paying of 2 couriers I think you should have charged her for the second delivery also but I guess that's neither here nor there at this point, unless you can take that cost from any refund too.

I stand to be corrected but I think the seller putting 'no returns' on a listing is not grounds for no returns anymore - wasn't there a thread about this a few days ago on here?

A really tricky position for you, and very frustrating - I'd try to stand my ground with the buyer but then get in touch with the ebay helpline asap and plead your case. Hope you get it sorted soon.
 
If she opens a dispute, regardless of the evidence ebay almost invariably find in favour of the buyer. I had this over a saddle - they claimed the tree was broken, and despite their saddler not being able to state categorically that was the case, ebay directed them to return it and me to refund them in full including carriage. When it came back the seat was creased from over flexing, by then it did look as though the tree was suspect and the saddle worth less than before they had it. I had before pics, I took after pics and also had my saddler open it and report (tree was fine) but ebay kept dismissing my evidence. So I sent it all to their CEO (email etc on the website of company CEOs http://www.ceoemail.com/ ) who had a PROPER investigation and refunded me in full.
Provide incontrovertible evidence then kick up a fuss! I did get rubbish feedback but it stands out among other brilliant ones so most people would think it was suspect anyway.
 
Agree with the previous post about making a fuss. You can expect Ebay to side with the buyer initially but keep on and on at them until they investigate properly. I have known them to refund the money themselves if an agreement cannot be reached, so that no one is out of pocket.

You do still have the usual legal channels open to you - small claims court and speak to consumer advice - you can do all of these things outside of Ebay and they have to cooperate.
 
If she bought it outside the eBay listing / emailed and made an offer ..not hit a buy now ... Tell her to go raffle ;)
 
This is what will happen (I'm a regular ebay seller with 100% positive feedback of over 800).

1. She'll open a dispute via PayPal.
2. PayPal will tell her to post the saddle back by a trackable means)

She'll not post it back.

Don't worry too much. As long as you keep all correspondence and photos I think you'll be OK.

If she does post it back then the dispute will continue allowing you to put your side of the story forward.

However, I would, in this case, empty your PayPal account and unlink your bank account too.

There are also really good forums on ebay so post on there for advise, tho don't be too precious about it, they hold no punches.

In regards to the ebay/paypal fees, you sign up to these when you sell, so you can't argue the toss about them. Paying for second postage was silly, I would have demanded more money from the seller to resend it, but you live and learn.
 
She has just replied with this:

Thank you for your reply about the saddle, i have re looked again at the saddle in the day time to see the tear and can see that it is dirty under the tear and it shows signs of ageing ,i have attached a photo to show you this, as it is under the stirrup strap its could have been missed, i dont think you would have sent it if you had known... your photos showed the full saddle from a distance and not close up and its on the other side of the sadde shown in your photo that has the damage, the damage being on the right hand side and the photo is from the left.This does not alter the fact that it is not a 17 " saddle, and is not as advertised, i have measure it up and its about the same size as mine, possibly a bit larger , photo attached and as i mentioned to you it was for a 15hh pony who could not take a larger saddle than a 17", i have not put it on him as it is far to narrow for him and would not even fit on him till i get my saddler to fit a wider gullet. You also mentioned you paid for two carriages , i did pay for a carriage for the saddle and your company delivery man was unable to find my office but the tuffnells man came straight to the door without any problems, but i do really appreciate how you rushed to get it back out to me.We both have 100% on ebay and neither want to lose that so i hope we can sort this out amicably, I look forwards to hearing from you

The problem is I would reluctantly have taken the saddle back if it was in the same condition but it is now damaged! At least I would have had something to sell. I don't know what she is playing at, as anyone can see from the listing that I have clearly shown BOTH sides of the saddle and not just the left side as she has stated above. I have unlinked my paypal account from ebay but I am still worried ebay will refund her and then she will skip off into the sunset and ebay will chase me for the money!! The saddle was listed as a 7 day auction starting at £150, the buyer messaged me asking for a Buy It Now price so I edited the listing to reflect a Buy It Now. She paid through paypal.

I don't care about getting bad feedback, I have 112 100% feedback at the moment, but I am categorically not going to use ebay for selling anything ever again after this! I will have to call ebay to put my side across.
 
insist she sends it back at her cost!!

some cheeky bitch tried to do me out of 3 rugs via paypal.....she used them and ripped one and tried to blame me and get a refund!!!

trouble was her facebook was set to public therefore i saw her little scam as it was processing.....



be very careful they DO side with buyers.....




ets - my buyer said she watned to keep the rugs and wanted a refund to repair one !!! (cheeky cow she ripped it!) she may play this card..........therefor you WILL loose money!!


so get it sent back asap.... if you refuse you will most likely loose i hate to say!! paypal insisted for me the buyer paid return of the delivery.....which was the cost of teh repair she was moaning about ( :D ) so i did win eventually but i was so angry!
 
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The problem is I don't want it back regardless of whether she pays the postage - she has ripped the saddle which renders it worthless to me!

I am not refunding her and being left with a damaged useless saddle - I am currently on hold to ebay at the moment...
 
stand your ground then but be prepared they rule in their favour...

do you have pics of the saddle in full working order?

they are horrid some buyers!!
 
Just got off the phone from ebay.

I explained the situation. They said not to reply anymore, and let her open a case against me and ebay will contact us both for our sides of the story.

Buyer has said that I only showed a photo of the left side and the damage is on the right, ebay agreed with me that I have clearly shown both sides and no rips can be seen even when zoomed in. So that works in my favour. I also have the emails stating that the box arrived in good condition so could not have been damaged in transit.

The buyer is insinuating that the damage occured before I sent it which is rubbish... my horse was put to sleep hence the reason for selling, and had been nowhere near a horse since I took the photos of it.

ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH :mad:
 
As a futher thought -why, if the saddle had a tear when it arrived, would she have bothered measuring it or taking it to a saddler?

I don't understand why you paid for carriage again? If the first courier would not attempt a redelivery they should refund you.
 
I honestly have no idea. She was happy with the item at first!!

This was the first message I had from her when she receieved it - I got a POD for it so messaged her to check she had it.

hi.. yes it has turned up.. i might have a small problem , i measured it as it looks the same size as my 17 1/2 and yours measures 17 1/2 and i was expecting a 17 inch saddle as my one is too big... did you have anything to confirm its size when you bought it ?? as they run up big the isabelle werth saddles so if you may have thought it was a 17 inch when you usually ride in a 17 1/2 I am still at work so cannot definately put it against my saddle but the tape measure from the gold disk to the middle of the back of the saddle is definately 17 1/2 ...Any thoughts from your end

and then she sent this just after, without me responding to the above

hi againi have taken a photo of me measuring it to send to my saddler she will know exactly what size, i do hope its a 17 inch as its just what i need... i can send you the photo if you send me your email address or mobile number so you can see what you think.its definately a 17 1/2 to the middle of the cantle and the 17" comes in not quite at the top... as they come up large will measure my one when i get home as it still has the sticker on it so can definately compare..Speak later, and if you are happy for me to call you re this it would be easier .Thanks again

So I said

Hi glad you got the saddle ok.I bought it second hand as 17" fitted by a reputable saddler 18 months ago. It fit my mare who was 17", she also had a 17" GP Kent and Masters and a 17" Prestige Golden Star so I would have had no reason to believe it was any bigger than that as it fit her perfectly.Hopefully your saddler can confirm this for you, I am confident that it is a 17" as it was bought as such by myself.

she then sends this

hi, i have got the tape measure out and measured it against my wintec isabell saddle As a comparison, my saddle is 17 1/2 to the back of the cantle and i have the original sticker on the saddle so am 100% sure of its size and the tape measure confirms this , i did the same measurements on your saddle and it comes up 17 1/2 and not 17 " as listed, i appreciate it fitted your horse who uses 17" saddles but as i told you we have a 15HH pony this 1/2 an inch makes it no good for me but possibly could have managed if it had been for a horse. i am more than happy to send you photos of both my saddle and its sticker and your saddle to show you that i am being honest which is why i have over 490 items bought and sold with 100% feedback !!!! i was also unhappy with the fact it has a rip on the right stirrup holder which was not listed or a photo shown , i am happy with the overall wear of the saddle which is quite usual for a 2nd hand saddle but not a 21/2 cm tear which will just get bigger and bigger..I am so sorry because you have put in so much effort to get the saddle to me as soon as possible and was very well packaged..I wish to return this saddle to you for a refund, i am happy to send you any photo's of the measurements and the rip too, i am happy to help with the return costs as a show of good will..i look forwards to hearing from you again

So it was only after all these messages that she has changed her tune and said that it is ripped!! :mad::mad:
 
laura-c said:
This is just a total nightmare! I have replied with this.


Hi. I bought the saddle from my saddler as 17". I'm sorry you have found this measurement to be slightly out, I had no reason to measure the saddle either when buying it myself or listing it here as I bought it in good faith of it being 17" & it fit my horse perfectly as did her other two 17" saddles. I'd have taken the saddle back if this was the only issue as I could have sold it on, however I know absolutely nothing about any rip in the saddle whatsoever. The saddle was in no way, shape or form ripped or torn in any way & I have photos to prove this. It was sent extremely well packaged by myself & a colleague, as you have agreed, so there is no way any damage could've been done to it whilst in transit. A synthetic saddle is light & was wrapped in layers & layers of bubble wrap & crumpled up shrink wrap with nothing sharp whatsoever so there is no way it could have been damaged in transit if the box arrived in tact, which you admit it did. I was perfectly honest in my listing & discussed with you over many emails the condition of the saddle, including the tarnishing to the badges & usual signs of wear associated with 2nd hand saddles. I am a decent seller with 100% percent feedback myself. I have tried to do my best sending it out as soon as I could for you & paying twice the courier fees as I did not realise it was a portacabin as hadn't been told. I'm really upset to find the saddle has been damaged since & just can't see it fair for me to take it back & issue a refund when it has now been damaged when out of my hands & cannot have been damaged in transit as agreed by yourself. I would not only be out of pocket for the price of the saddle plus 2x courier fees, ebay fees & paypal fees, I'd have a damaged saddle that is effectively worthless when I know that the saddle was not damaged when sent out. I'm sorry it doesn't fit your horse, I'd genuinely have taken it back but now that it is damaged I just can't afford to lose that kind of money :(


I have photos of it yes the ones taken in the listing and no rips can be seen. But I guess she could argue it was damaged after the photos. Thanks for your advice, I will call ebay in the morning.

I have a hideous feeling that I am going to have to give this woman a refund...!!
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Good luck i have just had this with a different item the buyer wanted £17 refunded due to damage Ebay refunded her the whole £180 me and the buyer had to sort it out instead as ebay closed it after a 2nd opening of the case to them
 
Some saddles have serial numbers stamped onto them somewhere. If you send the number to the maker of the saddle they might be able to confirm whether the saddle is indeed a 17 or 17.5. I did this when I bought an Amerigo saddle off the internet.
 
s4sugar said:
As a futher thought -why, if the saddle had a tear when it arrived, would she have bothered measuring it or taking it to a saddler?

I don't understand why you paid for carriage again? If the first courier would not attempt a redelivery they should refund you.
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Good point!
 
Honestly, all this argy-bargy over a bargain (by the sound of it) saddle bought unseen over the internet. What do people honestly expect for £150? A brand new Jaguar saddle that fits like a glove? I mean really.
 
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