Education, not character assassination!

MrsElle

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Ok, so my attempt at a witty tag line is poor, and I have probably spelt assassination wrong, but I hope you get the gist!

Reading threads on here regarding the breeding of puppies has opened my eyes as to how passionate about this subject a lot of people are. However, before jumping on breeders of mongrels and back street breeders please give a thought as to how your response might come accross.

Shouting, accusing and condeming someone doesn't make them listen, it makes them defensive. Gentle words and the giving of information works. Because someone has bred a litter of pups it doesn't make them the devil incarnate, they may just be naive. Let me tell you a story......I will try to be brief.....

Several years ago, OH and I got a puppy. We had done the research and decided this particular breed was for us and after finding what we now realise was a bit of a dodgy breeder we brought our little bundle of joy home. She soon became a large bundle of joy and was adored by all who met her. A couple of years later I saw a dog of the same breed being advertised on Ebay. I kid you not! OH and I drove a couple of hundred miles to pick up this dog not really knowing what to do with him but knowing we had to get him away from his owner who admitted she was going to turf him out on the street if we hadn't gone to get him. He turned into a fine dog (after lots and lots of rehab) and we looked at him and our bitch and thought 'why not, it might be fun'.

We were naive. We didn't look at the wider issues in the dog world, perhaps as we knew little about it and didn't even know many people with dogs with whom a discussion might have ensued if we had mentioned our plans to them.

So, we had pups. Beautiful little things they were and we vetted the new owners. We turned away lots of people as we wanted them to go the right owners and to live healthy and happy lives.

We enjoyed having the first litter so much we had more.....

We had two pups back from the first litter, driving 300 miles and 250 miles to pick them up and after keeping them with us for a month to assess them we rehomed them to lovely new owners.

We felt we were doing everything right. The pups were well cared for, homes vetted and we would always have the pups back if we had to. What was wrong with that?

However, reading about dogs in rescue, reading about peoples experiences and reading some informed debate on here has opened my eyes.

What we did was wrong. We added to the already over populated dog world with dogs that ok, were pedigree and kc registered but hadn't been thoroughly health tested (dog had, bitch not tested for HD) and hadn't had successful show careers.

When I once posted photos of our pups I had some awful replies and being the sensitive little flower I am I withdrew with attitude of 'what do they know?' The people making these comments probably knew an awful lot but the delivery of their knowledge was abrupt, rude and accusing. It didn't help!

What I am trying to say is that there are a lot of well informed and knowledgable people on here who could help so much. Cayla is such a lady who has helped me personally with advice and offers of help, but there are many others.

Before jumping on someone here, why not take a step back and think how constructive and kind help might educate someone, who might in turn educate someone else, who in turn might help someone else..........

Purge over!
 

MurphysMinder

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Some very valid points MrsE, you are certainly not the only one who thought "why not" when they owned a dog and bitch. I think people on here do try to educate when people ask the question "should I mate my bitch", but when presented with pups which appear to have been bred on a whim it does get peoples backs up.
In the case of the thread which I suspect has caused you to post this, the OP first post wound quite a lot of people up, referring to a breed that her little bitch clearly wasn't. However she did eventually clarify that the parents had all necessary tests (I'm particularly impressed she had their hips scored when as far as I am aware HD is not a problem in any of the breeds involved) and she will I imagine have the pups DNA tested to see if they are PLL carriers at 8 weeks, so I think some of the comments, mine included were perhaps a little harsh.
 
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Katikins

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A very valid point, BUT, you do need to take into consideration the format being used here. It is very difficult to get tone and inflection into an online forum post. For example, if someone asked you in real life about breeding her very cute bitch you could adopt a soft tone and ask why and all the other relevant questions. However, when these questions are posted online they do tend to sound like a list of accusations. But that is the way of the internet and if you are using it you do need to take into account that someone may not mean the list of, very valid, questions to sound as accusatory as they did.

On the other hand, sometimes a sharp 'what the hell are you thinking?' might make someone think twice and snap out of it. Some people would take offense, some people would not... the poster has no way of knowing what reaction they would get.
 

Dobiegirl

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A very valid point, BUT, you do need to take into consideration the format being used here. It is very difficult to get tone and inflection into an online forum post. For example, if someone asked you in real life about breeding her very cute bitch you could adopt a soft tone and ask why and all the other relevant questions. However, when these questions are posted online they do tend to sound like a list of accusations. But that is the way of the internet and if you are using it you do need to take into account that someone may not mean the list of, very valid, questions to sound as accusatory as they did.

On the other hand, sometimes a sharp 'what the hell are you thinking?' might make someone think twice and snap out of it. Some people would take offense, some people would not... the poster has no way of knowing what reaction they would get.

I do so agree with these opinions and would like to add that a lot of AAD members are involved in rescue and when they see posts like the one referred to they have a head desk moment. They are the people who are picking up the pieces and I can understand their frustration and anger at more puppies being produced.
 

EAST KENT

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I also am one of those picking up folk ,BUT if everyone who bred did as this lady did,and picked up her own pieces the world would be a better place.OK you did`nt HD score..but ignorance is not a sin..yet anyway!
I would love to see every puppy bred ID`d by any means back to it`s breeder ,and every breeder be responsible for any future problems or rehoming needed for that puppy.
Breeding dogs ,indeed,does NOT make you the Devil Incarnate,with the above rules adhered to and great care taken choosing homes breeding is NOT a crime.Nor,incidently is keeping a male or female entire,although many seem to think it is a criminal offence on here. Dogs actually are`nt that swift at getting unauthorised sex with responsible owners around. A bitch is only fertile for around three days twice yearly..so the chances are not quite as high as some seem to think!
All these mongrel litters do piss me off a bit though,my Goodness they must be better at salestalk than me!
 

millreef

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Here is my second venture into the dogs section of the forum and I hope my last. I read the comments from the "experts" and I would have been appalled if they were my dogs being ridiculed. An almost identical post on the Soapbox received the complete opposite reaction- I know where I'd rather post.
 

copper100

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I'm thinking this AAD's forum is pushing a lot of people out, and whilst not all dogs are Kennel Club standard they are the real Heinz 47, so as long as they get a good long term home, as stats go they seem to have the least health issues.

Whilst I understand people's concerns with selling cross breeds, and for large amounts of moneies mutts are still good.
 

Kaylum

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You cannot force people to get educated. They have to go and learn for themselves. The threads about cross breeds have been discussed for a long time, and tobehonest this part of the forum is not locked down so anyone can see it. So what do you suggest? How do we educate people? I think passionate dog people on here basically dont suffer fools gadly. They are willing help but a lot dont want help or even understand what they are doing to the dog world. Yes I am too the point but why not say what your feeling.

And I totally agree with EAST KENT about how dogs seasons happen and how they get into pup.
 
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Kaylum

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I own four 'mongrels/crossbreeds/whatever and can state 100 percent my dogs have never been ridiculed by anyone on AAD but me.:eek:
Exactly JRT owners which have to be the biggest cross breeds ever for which my mum had a rescue girl , people dont put them down, but what the forum is about is responsible breeding of pedigree or cross breed dogs. i.e. not breeding for profit like many have started doing as they think its easy money.
 

ChesnutsRoasting

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Exactly JRT owners which have to be the biggest cross breeds ever for which my mum had a rescue girl , people dont put them down, but what the forum is about is responsible breeding of pedigree or cross breed dogs. i.e. not breeding for profit like many have started doing as they think its easy money.

What is commonly known as 'a nice little earner' or 'next years holiday' or 'buying me a pedigree';)
 

soloabe

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I think that a lot of us here deal with this all day everyday and don't have the patience when we get here. We come here to talk amongst friends.

I haven't posted (well i did but i removed it) on the puppy threads but the fact that i sit with dogs at the shelter every week whilst they are PTS out of some kind of sick obligation (There is nothing i can do to stop it but i sure as hell can make sure that puppy has someone tickling his ear as he passes over the rainbow bridge) I do not have the patience to come here and molly coddle people who if they had bothered to do even the tiniest bit of research would realize that what they are doing is sending more dogs to that metal table in the dark and smelly room with only people like me to make it a little better.

After i get out of that i come here and quite frankly could kill anyone who would be so stupid.
Which is why i don't really come here that much anymore.
 
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Alec Swan

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Here is my second venture into the dogs section of the forum and I hope my last. I read the comments from the "experts" and I would have been appalled if they were my dogs being ridiculed. An almost identical post on the Soapbox received the complete opposite reaction- I know where I'd rather post.

Actually Milly, by and large, you'd be wrong! By and large this is one of the friendlier and nicer sections of HHO, believe it or not! ;). Just what's got into everyone (OK not actually every poster), over the last days or so, is beyond me.

Strangely, I've noticed that one or two of the regular and knowledgable posters, have had nothing to say. Presumably because they found the whole debate to be rather silly, and shallow. It was all about a lovely litter of puppies, and were they mine, I too would have been very pleased with them.

Would anyone else agree with me, were I to suggest that AAD gets it's self back on track? :p

Alec.
 

Kaylum

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Its a good topic to bring to the top of the forum and let people see that we have a social responsbility for breeding whatever animal.

And its also good that forum members work with rescue centres to say it how it is.

AAD is well on track compared to the likes of mums.net
 

CAYLA

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I think that a lot of us here deal with this all day everyday and don't have the patience when we get here. We come here to talk amongst friends.

I haven't posted (well i did but i removed it) on the puppy threads but the fact that i sit with dogs at the shelter every week whilst they are PTS out of some kind of sick obligation (There is nothing i can do to stop it but i sure as hell can make sure that puppy has someone tickling his ear as he passes over the rainbow bridge) I do not have the patience to come here and molly coddle people who if they had bothered to do even the tiniest bit of research would realize that what they are doing is sending more dogs to that metal table in the dark and smelly room with only people like me to make it a little better.

After i get out of that i come here and quite frankly could kill anyone who would be so stupid.
Which is why i don't really come here that much anymore.

^^^^ THIS
I don't actually post on alot of breeding posts at all these days, infact this/the other is the 1st one in along while.
I just get the point I think FFS, after the day I had and what I had to see today I don't wanna see the future unravel before me here. Some things probably where OTT, but my thoughts remain the same, the majority of breeding is un-neccesary more so the j.r.t x westi type post than the other but the other re the manchester terrier x by whatever else, it is a forum and there will be all manor of input other than the usual "they are cute" and I do believe even if harsh folk do take alot of food for thought from these posts in regard to un neccessary breeding where they may have literally opened and thought "oh cute" they think alot more than that and a few have already said it.

I don't think anyone will be put off the forum and im sorry but know one can say this place is not helpful, I have given advice and sent puppy guides/crate guides/toilet training guides times and time again and will continue to do so, but I will also no doubt continue to post on un nessesary breeding, and fair do, I choose to participate in rescue (bigger fool me) I just wish less folk lived in ignorance, but as they say (it is bliss)
 

fidleyspromise

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I saw the puppy posts and chose not to look at them as I feel ashamed that we helped to add to the burden.
When I got my bitch 12 years ago, I knew nothing other than what my parents taught me, ie, we'd always had GSDs and I found my own way to train her. trial and error. We also had a GSD male as they were supposed to be my mum and dads but the bitch ended up mine.

We had a couple of litters before she was spayed and I was proud of our pups and it was me that took care of them etc. My parents were picky about homes etc, but since reading online the past couple of years, I have seen the problem caused and although the OH and I would have loved to have pups in future, I've gone thoroughly off the idea even if they were health screened etc.

I can say that through this forum I have educated myself, my OH and gradually and very gently, my parents.

If your going to do something, it doesn't take much to look online and see how much of a problem overbreeding etc is and it isn't something I wish to contribute towards. I can see why people do get snippity on these threads.

Much respect to you Katielou as I couldn't do that. One of our pups had difficulty breathing as mother had crushed it and I was in tears taking it to vet and holding it to PTS. THAT was a shock of reality!
 

Cinnamontoast

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I said this a little while ago.

I have to say, though, that when I told everyone I'd gone out, clueless tart that I am, and bought two un-tested pups, not one person said anything awful. When I then posted about Zak having HD, again, no-one said a word. I got support, despite being a new-ish member.

I see some vicious posts about the cross breed pups, but it's the passionate nature of true dog lovers that makes people go a little bit crazy. I've never seen it so crazy on here, I admit and I do feel a little like the mob mentality that turns on any fresh victim was a little in evidence.
 

CAYLA

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I saw the puppy posts and chose not to look at them as I feel ashamed that we helped to add to the burden.
When I got my bitch 12 years ago, I knew nothing other than what my parents taught me, ie, we'd always had GSDs and I found my own way to train her. trial and error. We also had a GSD male as they were supposed to be my mum and dads but the bitch ended up mine.

We had a couple of litters before she was spayed and I was proud of our pups and it was me that took care of them etc. My parents were picky about homes etc, but since reading online the past couple of years, I have seen the problem caused and although the OH and I would have loved to have pups in future, I've gone thoroughly off the idea even if they were health screened etc.

I can say that through this forum I have educated myself, my OH and gradually and very gently, my parents.

If your going to do something, it doesn't take much to look online and see how much of a problem overbreeding etc is and it isn't something I wish to contribute towards. I can see why people do get snippity on these threads.

Much respect to you Katielou as I couldn't do that. One of our pups had difficulty breathing as mother had crushed it and I was in tears taking it to vet and holding it to PTS. THAT was a shock of reality!


What a lovely post:) I actually feel there are alot more users like yourself that have taken more helpful advice away from this forum than not:)
 

CAYLA

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I said this a little while ago.

I have to say, though, that when I told everyone I'd gone out, clueless tart that I am, and bought two un-tested pups, not one person said anything awful. When I then posted about Zak having HD, again, no-one said a word. I got support, despite being a new-ish member.

I see some vicious posts about the cross breed pups, but it's the passionate nature of true dog lovers that makes people go a little bit crazy. I've never seen it so crazy on here, I admit and I do feel a little like the mob mentality that turns on any fresh victim was a little in evidence.

I agree....it oinly gets heated up once in a while, and its mainly things people has a strong/passionate opinion about.

Be it

RAW/feeding (have seen some abrupt comments made re this)
Neutering (same, this has gotten heated)
Training (need I say more):p

SB and NL see the same types of debate/comments/arguments/replies.

it's a forum.
 

Dobiegirl

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Yes it got heated but I didnt see vicious , name calling yes but it was the op who did the name calling.

I have to say we were almost drip fed facts which did not instil a lot of confidence. If the op had come out in the beginning and stated everything it would almost have passed un-noticed.

I have gone back and read the post again and there was nothing I would change that I said, but people commenting at the end hadnt read it in its entirity and in my view got hold of the wrong end of the stick. A very similar thing happened on the Hatties pups thread.
 

CAYLA

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The OP did not have to justify herself. The OP was showing pictures of cute puppies she was proud of. That is all.

Very true, but then no one has to justify their answers. Other folk post about things and never expect the replies they get, some post are baffling in the way they turn out/subjects broached, these ones included, its a forum, like we say time and time again.
I have seen posts where someone is showing off their "lovely horse" which end up in "your to fat"/ "your horse is fat"/"your stable is a mess", things rarely get answered they way folk want them to be.
 

DragonSlayer

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Very true, but then no one has to justify their answers. Other folk post about things and never expect the replies they get, some post are baffling in the way they turn out/subjects broached, these ones included, its a forum, like we say time and time again.
I have seen posts where someone is showing off their "lovely horse" which end up in "your to fat"/ "your horse is fat"/"your stable is a mess", things rarely get answered they way folk want them to be.

Indeed, I agree with you, and maybe education is needed for those people who post without proper thought?

EG -

'Nice puppies, glad you got homes for them....but what are your thoughts about breeding when so many dogs are in kennels....blah blah blah'....

But maybe that is too easy?

Forget educating people about responsible breeding, I think we need some education for diplomacy and debate.

:p
 

Shutterbug

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Theres a lot to be said for the kindly, informative approach to this subject - a girl at my office recently purchased an Alaskan Malamute after talking to me at length about mine - she recently aquired a pup after asking me how much mine cost and almost choking at his £1000 price tag - when asked which breeder she had chosen she was not forthcoming with specifics so I asked some questions - turns out she has purchased a dog from someone who has bred despite a "progeny not eligible for registration" so her bitch is not kc registered - she then proceeds to tell me that she intends to breed one litter of malamutes which will also not only be unregistered but whose parents will likely not be hip scored or eye tested. When asked why she responded with the old wives tale "its best to breed at least one litter from a bitch before it gets spayed" and "I can get at least £400 a pup" - I was absolutely horrified and wanted to roll my eyes and bang my head off the desk in frustration, but I bit my lip and just chatted to her about it, gave her my clear and polite opinion as to why I thought this was not a route to go down and I can only hope that its made some difference to her thought process. I gave her a link to the malamute rescue and told her how so many of these dogs end up in for re-homing. I remember her telling me her husband thought my dog was cool and looked like a wolf - I can only pray their little pup doesn't end up at the rescue too if they suddenly realise that cute wolfie needs more looking after than their kids.

I just dont think there is any necessity to get nasty with people on these forums - treat people how you expect to be treated - people forget its other people they are speaking to online and those people have feelings and will react negatively to extreme criticism or nastiness - you get nowhere with that attitude - I for one certainly would not give the time of day to half the people who commented on that puppy thread no matter how good their intentions because they were simply rude and I ignore rude
 

CAYLA

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Seems to me that some of the posters were narked because the puppies were mongrels - imagine if I had crossed my Barb with my Anglo-Arab, would I get the same response? Nope!

Not from me, I know little about horses;) but do disagree with the random and un neccessary breeding of them.
I was not narked re mongrels, I have enough of them , I own nine dogs half pedigrees and half mongers, all rescues.
Like I said I have no issues replying on anyones posts, it's not about the OP, it was un-neccessary breeding, as I mentioned maybe not irrisponsible like the j.r.t x westi post but still random breeding.
The SB post (now I have looked) as it was repeatildly being menitoned is a pedigree litter (irrisponsible/un nessesary, ill thought breeding) but still a pedigree;)
If I was so biased we would be a "pedigree only" rescue, lord knows we would be better off in numbers/rehoming/donation wise, but nope we never have less than 30 at a time and they include alot of mongarellas:D
 
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