Education, not character assassination!

millreef said:
Seems to me that some of the posters were narked because the puppies were mongrels - imagine if I had crossed my Barb with my Anglo-Arab, would I get the same response? Nope!
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TBH it seems to me that those who want to get particularly defensive about the whole issue bring up the 'cross vs. pedigree' argument'. It's been done to death on this forum and many others and the general consensus is, shock horror.... "not all that bothered, in the day to day grand scheme of things".

The main issue that was being debated was responsible breeding practice. I for one think the OP did a good job of securing homes and contracting for the pups return. Do I think they should have been bred in the first place? No. The UK is overflowing with unwanted dogs of all types. We put down god knows how many every week. That said, they are here now and all have nice new homes to look forward to. It's fantastic that it worked out so well in this case, and a credit to the bitches owner, because many litters (both crosses and pedigrees) do not enjoy such stable futures.

It's very easy to sit back and say 'gosh you're mean. They were just cute puppy photos'. But imagine for a moment that you are in the same position as KatieLou and spending your days sticking needles in unwanted dogs. Those dogs were all cute pups too, often as little as 4-5 months ago. They're still just puppies when they're being euthanised, just a little bigger or more troublesome than the owner originally wanted. Sadly, overcrowding and a consumer led market means they'll end up in a black plastic bag.

I don't think people should have kicked off at the OP in the way they did. But I can see what pushes folks to snap sometimes. :(
 
Quote Hevs "I can only pray their little pup doesn't end up at the rescue too if they suddenly realise that cute wolfie needs more looking after than their kids."

If this were true no one who has had a children would ever have a dog.

I too hope the puppy does not end up in a "rescue".

Could we have a general post about the breeds and their various genetic problems. Not a slanging match, something educational and not overly defensive please?
 
Passion drives people to work to make the lives of dogs just that little bit better whether it's scritching the ears of a dog being put to death or whether it is working hard day in and day out to save just a few of them in a rescue. Along with that passion sometimes comes intolerance. Along with that passion comes thoughts about the fate of any puppy - mutt or pedigree - being bred today. Instead of jumping on people to back off on the way they handle things and telling them to fall into line cooing over how cute puppies are, how about we step back into their shoes and understand that they work to clean up other people's messes every day and that sometimes, just sometimes, that takes a toll on them? I don't think that those passionate people on here are intolerant just for the sake of it. They sometimes react that way because they see no end to the problem of overbreeding and they see no end to their often heartbreaking work. Imagine what the world would be like today without their - and others like them everywhere - passion? I for one wouldn't want to live in that world and I am just fine with that boiling over every now and then, even if someone somewhere doesn't get the reaction they expected or wanted to a post they've made on here. I don't think it is exactly a high price to pay to keep those passionate people doing what they do.

I'm not saying rudeness is okay, I am just saying that sometimes there is an awful lot of horrible experiences that a lot of people couldn't handle being a part of that drives reactions in the first place and I doubt that posts telling them what they can and can't say or should or shouldn't do will make any difference. They will still experience what they experience and it will still boil over every now and then and I don't think that is to be entirely unexpected. In fact I would say it is entirely normal.
 
Spook said:
Quote Hevs "I can only pray their little pup doesn't end up at the rescue too if they suddenly realise that cute wolfie needs more looking after than their kids."

If this were true no one who has had a children would ever have a dog.

I too hope the puppy does not end up in a "rescue".

Could we have a general post about the breeds and their various genetic problems. Not a slanging match, something educational and not overly defensive please?
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I have put a link under Alecs Breeders thread to the KC listing of health tests required/recommended for all breeds, it makes interesting reading.
 
This thread itself is proof as to what a generally harmonious place this section of the forum is. We have in this thread several people who do not see eye to eye on various subjects, absolutely united in their beliefs re. breeding. I often see in here people disagree in one thread and back each other up in another only a few minutes later, this is a generally very sensible part of the forum with informed debates taking place every day without things getting ridiculous and bitchy. We have also in the last 6 months- a year seen a huge increase in the number of users and regular posters in here, which is fantastic, there used to be about 10 of us!
People jumped on that post because it got backs up, its clear from the replies above as to why this is the case. I did try (perhaps abruptly) to gain more info from the OP rather than condemn too quickly but will also admit it got my back up. Yep the pups were cute. I even said they were in the post. I apologise to the OP for the onslaught she got and if she had them health tested to the standard she says and has contracts in place etc then good on her, shes not quite as irresponsible as was first thought and indeed those pups are lucky to have secure futures.
The thing is with posts such as that one (and there have been plenty others over the years) that I feel if even one person reads that post and decides NOT to breed from their dog then that makes a difference, even if only a small one. Some posters on this thread are proof that posts similar to the one under discussion have indeed made them stop and think and not breed. In my book thats a result. Maybe the OP got an unfair onslaught but the comments made still stand and she was not singled out. Anyone coming into this section of the forum posting pics of cross bred pups without any prior info given will get a similar reaction for all the right reasons. ETS the same applies with pedigree pups irresponsibley bred...its not a pedigree vs mongrel arguement at all.
 
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Hevs said:
I just dont think there is any necessity to get nasty with people on these forums - treat people how you expect to be treated - people forget its other people they are speaking to online and those people have feelings and will react negatively to extreme criticism or nastiness - you get nowhere with that attitude - I for one certainly would not give the time of day to half the people who commented on that puppy thread no matter how good their intentions because they were simply rude and I ignore rude
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^^ This.
The tone the tread took was unnecessary and smacked of school playground antics.
Must say I was pretty disappointed in some of the posters :(, I had thought better of them.
 
I've read this thread with interest, I own a lovely (to me) white boxer bitch, being white I cannot register or show her despite her coming from KC parents. She is as of yet unspayed (waiting for the 3 months after 2nd season which is what her breeder and my vet recommend) but having watched her when out on on walks and playing with her I have noticed she can occasionally have an issue with her knee which lasts 30 secs if that when it happens. So even if she had been the "right" colour I wouldn't breed her. I don't have the time and money to invest into the puppies, I also do not have the time or money to be able t have any puppies return if the new owners circumstances change. But my biggest problem? The fact because I can afford to own my dog and pay for her out of my own cash I have to pay nearly £300 to do the responsible thing and spay her. Is it any wonder there are people who breed because they love their dog and want puppies because they are cute?
 
You are right sam_m although I think a lot of people factor spay/neuter in as par for the course when owning a dog. This is one of the reasons PDSA and the like do cheap neuter schemes for people on low income. I did hear recently of someone breeding a litter to get enough money for the spay surgery...now that is truely shocking. If this truely was that persons reasons for breeding then clearly something should be done to address this problem as you can guarantee they wont be the only ones.
 
Vizslak said:
You are right sam_m although I think a lot of people factor spay/neuter in as par for the course when owning a dog. This is one of the reasons PDSA and the like do cheap neuter schemes for people on low income. I did hear recently of someone breeding a litter to get enough money for the spay surgery...now that is truely shocking. If this truely was that persons reasons for breeding then clearly something should be done to address this problem as you can guarantee they wont be the only ones.
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I think they do yes, however it does annoy me that when there is the issue of a lot of dogs and cats waiting to be rehomed that the cheap neuter scheme is only for low incomed people. If I wasn't married I'd qualify, yet because I'm married our joint income is just over the limit.

I will confess I had considered breeding (before the extent of the kne problem became clear) to raise the funds to spay her, but on talking to her breeder, her full sister from the previous litter had just had 14 puppies and Rox herself was one of 13. I cannot possibly have the same amount return should circumstances change and it would also be an extra 10+ puppies on an already overcroweded doggy world.
 
I think well publicised free spay/neuter to those on qualifying low incomes and cheap spay/neuter for others would be a massively helpful step for them to take, even if only for a limited period it would make a massive difference. Cost of spay/neuter is a massive issue, particularly in the current financial climate.
 
sam_m said:
I've read this thread with interest, I own a lovely (to me) white boxer bitch, being white I cannot register or show her despite her coming from KC parents. She is as of yet unspayed (waiting for the 3 months after 2nd season which is what her breeder and my vet recommend) but having watched her when out on on walks and playing with her I have noticed she can occasionally have an issue with her knee which lasts 30 secs if that when it happens. So even if she had been the "right" colour I wouldn't breed her. I don't have the time and money to invest into the puppies, I also do not have the time or money to be able t have any puppies return if the new owners circumstances change. But my biggest problem? The fact because I can afford to own my dog and pay for her out of my own cash I have to pay nearly £300 to do the responsible thing and spay her. Is it any wonder there are people who breed because they love their dog and want puppies because they are cute?
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A spay at 300.00 is overpriced,it is half that down here in Kent. Also SAM_M..get that girl insured now,that knee problem could need expensive surgery later on.
 
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I just had a nosey on the PDSA site out of interest. My income is virtually non existant (Thank you minimum wage and limited hours) but to qualify for PDSA you have to be claiming benefits!

I believed it was just an income limit, im far too proud to claim benefits so would never qualify.

Luckily, I can afford my pooch and will never be faced with a vet bill that I cant at least chip away at. But others like me may be put off by the requirements? I dunno... just bored musings :p
 
Vizslak said:
I think well publicised free spay/neuter to those on qualifying low incomes and cheap spay/neuter for others would be a massively helpful step for them to take, even if only for a limited period it would make a massive difference. Cost of spay/neuter is a massive issue, particularly in the current financial climate.
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It would indeed be helpful!! What with cost of living I have my emergency fund and at the moment no spare cash for it but am desperatly trying to save the money to do it.

EAST KENT said:
A spay at 300.00 is overpriced,it is half that down here in Kent. Also SAM_M..get that girl insured now,that knee problem could need expensive surgery later on.
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£270 is what my vet has quoted me in Hampshire and seems to be the going rate from the other practises I have rung! I do have her insured at the moment it is nothing the vet is concerned about as it has happened 4 times in the 14 months but oviously something I am aware of and wheen looking at her as a breeding dog have ruled her out on amongst other things.
 
Vizslak said:
I think well publicised free spay/neuter to those on qualifying low incomes and cheap spay/neuter for others would be a massively helpful step for them to take, even if only for a limited period it would make a massive difference. Cost of spay/neuter is a massive issue, particularly in the current financial climate.
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I agree but are you going to get vets to work for free? Who is going to pick up the tab? Maybe the breeders should!
 
Well the pdsa are a huge charity with a huge funding. They work on donations, obviously a donation would have to made of something. But I agree, its unlikely to ever happen, which is why I thought perhaps a limited time frame for such an offer would be a possiblity. In the long run a spay neuter drive such as this would save them money.
 
littlemisslauren said:
I just had a nosey on the PDSA site out of interest. My income is virtually non existant (Thank you minimum wage and limited hours) but to qualify for PDSA you have to be claiming benefits!

I believed it was just an income limit, im far too proud to claim benefits so would never qualify.

Luckily, I can afford my pooch and will never be faced with a vet bill that I cant at least chip away at. But others like me may be put off by the requirements? I dunno... just bored musings :p
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Yes and as for the RSPCA wont rehome if your out at work for 6 hours but will gadly rehome to a person who is claiming benefits so wont be out of the house for more than 6 hours a day? But cannot afford vets bills and has to go back to a charity for them to be paid. oooh dont get me started. Its fair enough if you have lost your job and ned help but the woman down our road got a rescue dog from the RSPCA never worked in her life, on benefits, never has any intention of working
 
Kaylum said:
I agree but are you going to get vets to work for free? Who is going to pick up the tab? Maybe the breeders should!
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I perfectly agree no-one wants to work for free, but when I took Rox to get her knee looked at a 20 min consulation cost me £57 and then the £23 for her pain killers for 5 days. In contrast to spay her is going to be almost £300 yet if I was claiming benefits I could pay a donation to get her spayed.
 
I dont think spaying is counted on the donation based services of pdsa, I think its fixed fee but obviously is a vastly reduced sum.
 
They have loads of free and low cost speuter places here.

Usually once every 2 or3 months the vet will have low cost days where you get a basic spay or neuter for $80. Then you have the mobile clinics run by the humane society where if you qualify you get it free I think earning under $20k a year and then for everyone else its $50. Most of the vets are already employed by the humane society and do spays all day long on intake animals so paying the vet is not an issue.
 
I grew up with a Border Collie X that my parents rescued. He was a great dog and never had any health complaints until he got old and got cancer.

My next dog, another Border Collie X, was given to me as a puppy by my ex. He apparently paid quite a lot of money for him although as far as I know neither parent was health checked. I think he came from a working farm. He is now 9. He was castrated as soon as they dropped and I would always neuter any cross breed I own at the earliest opportunity. I love him to death and would never part with him but he has mild HD, PRA (the rod and cone cells at the back of his eye are all dying - no cure) and over many years has gone almost blind and will probably go totally blind. He also has Cauda Equina (fusing veterbra). This is his worst complaint - I have to manage his exercise and make sure he does regular walk work on the lead to keep his muscles built up over his hips. He also has collie fit heart - a heart murmur that an eye has to be kept on and may eventually require medication.

He is on permanent medication from the vet for his back and I also feed him Arhthri-Aid and Yumega oils to help with his back all of which cost money.

As said I will never part with him. With all the medication (non-steroidal with no long term affects) etc he has he is currently loving life and not in noticeable pain. I will make the right decision though as soon as I feel his quality of life is gone - going.

I wonder what happened to the other puppies in his litter. Do they have the same health problems and would their owners love them enough to see them through?

After this experience I decided that I would only buy a puppy where both parents were health checked in the future and this normally means KC registered. I now have a beautiful KC reg Border Collie bitch. Both her parents have had all their KC recommended health checks. My puppy is now 2 and has had all her health checks. She shows so will not be neutered. She has qualified for Crufts so must be a reasonable example of her breed. She is also training for agility where she is showing a lot of promise. I have already had a request for a puppy from her for agility.

I am planning on having a litter from her next year. I have applied to the Kennel Club to become an Accredited Breeder with all the paper work completed and accepted up to having the first litter. I have a Kennel Name registered ready to use. As already said she has had all her health checks and the results are within breed standards. The dog I have chosen has also had all his health checks which are also within breed standards. He also has very good results in the show ring have been Border Collie Puppy of the Year and having 2 CCs and 1 RCC. I am also looking into training my girl for her Border Collie Show Herding Test.

As it will be her 1st litter and looking at the dogs litters on the Border Collie Database I would not be surprised if I only have 2 puppies. I will be keeping my favourite and the other will be sold probably to the person already requesting a puppy. The sale of the 1 puppy will cover the cost of the stud fee but all the other costs will be covered by me so I am unlikely to make any money even if she has 3 or 4 puppies.

All puppies will be vet checked, hearing tested etc as well as being DNA tested for CEA. I am planning on Microchipping all puppies before they go to their new homes and all of the will be endorsed as Progeny not Eligible for Registration. This will only be removed from puppies if they have had all their health checks with good results AND if I am happy with the new owners reasons for wanting to breed etc. All puppies will go with the KC recommended sales contract and puppy pack. The sales contract will include that the puppy is to be returned to me at any point in its life if the new owner is unable to keep it.

I would like to think that this makes me a responsible breeder as I am breeding for myself to show as well as compete at agility. I do realise though that every home to which a puppy goes a rescue dog could have gone. However after my dogs problems, much as I love him, I would rather know more about any dog I give a home to. It is very hard on my blind dog when I do things like agility with the girl as I know how much he would have enjoyed it when he could see but now there is know way he can do any agility at all. I do show him at fun shows and he has never come away without getting placed in Veteran or Cross Breed even with his eye problems - he is moving well at the moment with all his medication and additives!
 
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