Electric collar ban

[Teaselmeg]

It's good news, although if you read some of the comments on various FB threads about it, you would think every dog is going to end up dead by the end of next year ! It doesn't come into effect until early next year, so E collar trainers now have quite a few months to learn how to actually train a dog ethically and without pain.

It's taken so long to get this ban through, so there is no way that slip leads etc will ever be banned. The moment we put any piece of equipment on an animal it is aversive, all must be carefully introduced ( so many people slap a headcollar on a dog with no desensitisation work and then say it hates it, of course it does because it's new and scary!) I am not a fan of headcollars, but I'd take one any day over a slip lead or even worse a prong collar.

We need to start treating all domesticated animals as sentient beings, not a nuisance that needs a quick fix.

 

[Moobli]

I am not a fan of headcollars, but I'd take one any day over a slip lead or even worse a prong collar.

We need to start treating all domesticated animals as sentient beings, not a nuisance that needs a quick fix.

Yet my dogs would find a head collar far more aversive than a slip lead (mine are taught loose lead walking). Surely, as with all things dog training, one size does not fit all. I will reiterate that I personally don’t use e-collars but blanket bans are never a good thing imo. And to think ecollars wont be used post ban is naive. I’d rather they were licensed and only held by trainers who have passed stringent training in their use and application.

 

[Jenko109]

It doesn't come into effect until early next year, so E collar trainers now have quite a few months to learn how to actually train a dog ethically and without pain.

We need to start treating all domesticated animals as sentient beings, not a nuisance that needs a quick fix.

So I suppose you would welcome the banning of electric fences for horses too then? The whack from an electric fence is far, far more painful than the low level settings available on an E collar.

 

[MurphysMinder]

A slip lead or check chain only come into play if the dog tightens the lead. From what I have seen of headcollars the dogs are fussing with them, rubbing faces etc from the moment they are put on, even before a lead is attached. I have never had to desensitise a dog to a slip lead or check collar once they move on from a puppy collar.

 

[blackcob]

I was handed a dog on a headcollar yesterday and the first thing he did when his owner was out of sight was drop to the floor and try and scrape it off, leaving me apologising for handing back a dog with a smear of mud up his head and mashed into the headcollar. I have used one, briefly and a long time ago, and it had its place as a tool but it was absolutely aversive and I believe they are for most dogs.

 

[Dexter]

So I suppose you would welcome the banning of electric fences for horses too then? The whack from an electric fence is far, far more painful than the low level settings available on an E collar.

The horse shocks itself if it touches the fence, it is not reliant on the timing of a human who may or may not have the skill to do it. The fence is also constant. Touch the fence = get a shock. An electric collar is not constant or consistent.

 

[MurphysMinder]

I was handed a dog on a headcollar yesterday and the first thing he did when his owner was out of sight was drop to the floor and try and scrape it off, leaving me apologising for handing back a dog with a smear of mud up his head and mashed into the headcollar. I have used one, briefly and a long time ago, and it had its place as a tool but it was absolutely aversive and I believe they are for most dogs.

As you may recall , I used one on Zenya when I brought her to her first few agility shows, because she is a very strong, bouncy GSD pup and I did not want to upset competing dogs. She is not a fan, and while she doesn't scrape her face etc I do find she shuts down a bit when wearing it, so she and I are far happier when she is in her large link check chain.

 

[Clodagh]

I had no idea slip leads were (considered) cruel. I used to use choke chains in Oz, which are no different.
So are we all supposed to walk dogs in a collar and lead? Or a harness?
How about people just put a little bit of training in and teach ‘heel’? I could walk mine in a barbed wire collar and it would be the same. I acknowledge they are an easy breed.
Hearing the calls for slip lead banning makes me reconsider my shock collar thoughts. I might go and buy one before the ban comes into effect

 

[CorvusCorax]

If you look at the trajectory of legislation in certain countries in Europe, it's not actually beyond the realms of impossibility that other devices regarded as 'kinder' would be banned eventually.

 

[Jenko109]

The horse shocks itself if it touches the fence, it is not reliant on the timing of a human who may or may not have the skill to do it. The fence is also constant. Touch the fence = get a shock. An electric collar is not constant or consistent.

That was not Teasels concern though was it.

The concern was about inflicting pain. Not about the potential poor timing when doing so.

 

[Birker2020]

I'm never sure that I understand disapproval of shock collars by anyone who is happy to shock horses.

I'm going to stick my neck on the line here but this is exactly my reaction. My horse is subject to mains electric fencing to keep him in his paddock as are thousands of horses all up and down the country.

I remember when I posted on here about when a previous y.o was a puppy walker for the local hunt.

We were on a yard with an electric gate and when someone drove in a couple of the puppies ran out onto the lane outside. They could have been struck by a car or bike, they were lucky they weren't killed.

The y.o got a lunge whip and chased them in and cracked the lunge whip really loudly. I'm not even sure it made contact with them but the noise scared them more than hurt them. But they learnt their lesson and never ran onto the lane again when the gate opened.

Same theory with electric collars. My understanding is that its like a tingle you get from a TENS machine, not a massive painful shock. Used a couple of times to shock surely that isn't too inhumane if it means a dog can't get run over or stray?

 

[Clodagh]

If you look at the trajectory of legislation in certain countries in Europe, it's not actually beyond the realms of impossibility that other devices regarded as 'kinder' would be banned eventually.

So what devices are permitted in these countries? A collar? Does it need to be a certain width? (Not having a go).

 

[bonny]

I'm going to stick my neck on the line here but this is exactly my reaction. My horse is subject to mains electric fencing to keep him in his paddock as are thousands of horses all up and down the country.

I remember when I posted on here about when a previous y.o was a puppy walker for the local hunt.

We were on a yard with an electric gate and when someone drove in a couple of the puppies ran out onto the lane outside. They could have been struck by a car or bike, they were lucky they weren't killed.

The y.o got a lunge whip and chased them in and cracked the lunge whip really loudly. I'm not even sure it made contact with them but the noise scared them more than hurt them. But they learnt their lesson and never ran onto the lane again when the gate opened.

Same theory with electric collars. My understanding is that its like a tingle you get from a TENS machine, not a massive painful shock. Used a couple of times to shock surely that isn't too inhumane if it means a dog can't get run over or stray?

That’s the same argument as lots of people use for any corporal punishment, either for animals or for children. If you feel it’s ok to use an electric shock why not a stick ?

 

[Clodagh]

Same theory with electric collars. My understanding is that it’s like a tingle you get from a TENS machine, not a massive painful shock. Used a couple of times to shock surely that isn't too inhumane if it means a dog can't get run over or stray?

Get one, put it on your arm, crank it up and give it a go. I’ve seen dogs screaming on the floor and terrified.

 

[Jenko109]

As for halters, I would say that some are worse than others.

I dont like the haltee now. I used to use one before I discovered better options. I dont like that they clamp the mouth shut and turn the head excessively if the dog pulls, even a little bit.

I do however like the GenCon. I use one regularly now and find my dog accepts it well, walks sweetly and does not itch her face when it gets taken off

**runs and hides**

 

[Jenko109]

Get one, put it on your arm, crank it up and give it a go. I’ve seen dogs screaming on the floor and terrified.

But then the other end of the scale, the lower levels are so low that the reaction from the dog is very subtle, to the point that if you didnt know what you were watching for then you wouldnt see it.

 

[MurphysMinder]

As for halters, I would say that some are worse than others.

I dont like the haltee now. I used to use one before I discovered better options. I dont like that they clamp the mouth shut and turn the head excessively if the dog pulls, even a little bit.

I do however like the GenCon. I use one regularly now and find my dog accepts it well, walks sweetly and does not itch her face when it gets taken off

**runs and hides**

I used to use a gencon and now have a Cosypet fleece lined headcollar which is the same design but slightly wider and she is happier in it though rarely used now. As I said above she doesn't rub it but is a little shut down, I suppose you could say she was just respecting it. I like the fact the action comes from behind the neck rather than turning the head like some headcollars.

 

[stangs]

The concern was about inflicting pain. Not about the potential poor timing when doing so.

Potential poor timing means that the stressor/aversive is unpredictable for the animal, and therefore makes the act of having the collar on much more stressful. Unpredictable stressors result in chronic stress and learned helplessness - is that not a concern?

I'm never sure that I understand disapproval of shock collars by anyone who is happy to shock horses.

Horses can always avoid getting shocked. A dog with an e-collar can't.

After watching how panicked my horse would get in a part of the yard after I accidentally shocked him there (an unpredictable stressor, because there was no correlation between touching something and the aversive), it's put me even more off e-collars.

But then the other end of the scale, the lower levels are so low that the reaction from the dog is very subtle, to the point that if you didnt know what you were watching for then you wouldnt see it.

And yet they continue to produce collars with high voltage settings, so clearly people are using those settings.

 

[skinnydipper]

The whack from an electric fence is far, far more painful than the low level settings available on an E collar.

So there's something worse. That's all right then

 

[blackcob]

The one with Susan Garrett is interesting as he touches on the ban in Europe and the consequences of it.

I had no idea he'd done a podcast with Susan Garrett, there goes my afternoon!

As you may recall , I used one on Zenya when I brought her to her first few agility shows, because she is a very strong, bouncy GSD pup and I did not want to upset competing dogs. She is not a fan, and while she doesn't scrape her face etc I do find she shuts down a bit when wearing it, so she and I are far happier when she is in her large link check chain.

I'm taking the puplet to her first KC show tomorrow, wish me luck She's trussed up in a harness and a flat collar with a double ended lead at the moment but I would absolutely consider something like a headcollar in future depending on how we handle these next few outings. It does irk me though that most of the agility community would baulk at the chain collar but are fine with headcollars, however poorly you see them used (and there's always a dog at a show lunging around with their head twisted, blinded by a strap, eye streaming). I mean, I don't agree with Susan Garrett's automatic usage of headcollars but at least she acknowledges that they are a tool out of the same box as chain/prong/electric.

 

[CorvusCorax]

@Clodagh

Can't QR on phone

German police dogs sent off duty after ban on ‘pulling collars’

Method used to control dogs while making arrests illegal under new animal rights law

www.theguardian.com

There's more information in the article re size of car boxes and trailer compartments and frequency of walking/time out of vehicles. It's meant that travelling away overnight/competing with multiple dogs has become very difficult unless you have a lot of money/staff.

 

[MurphysMinder]

I had no idea he'd done a podcast with Susan Garrett, there goes my afternoon!



I'm taking the puplet to her first KC show tomorrow, wish me luck She's trussed up in a harness and a flat collar with a double ended lead at the moment but I would absolutely consider something like a headcollar in future depending on how we handle these next few outings. It does irk me though that most of the agility community would baulk at the chain collar but are fine with headcollars, however poorly you see them used (and there's always a dog at a show lunging around with their head twisted, blinded by a strap, eye streaming). I mean, I don't agree with Susan Garrett's automatic usage of headcollars but at least she acknowledges that they are a tool out of the same box as chain/prong/electric.

I found the UKA shows at Kelsall were brilliant, loads of space to walk to get her used to the noise. At the last show we went in past queues and sat in the stands watching and she just took it all in.

 

[MurphysMinder]

@Clodagh

Can't QR on phone

German police dogs sent off duty after ban on ‘pulling collars’

Method used to control dogs while making arrests illegal under new animal rights law

www.theguardian.com

There's more information in the article re size of car boxes and trailer compartments and frequency of walking/time out of vehicles. It's meant that travelling away overnight/competing with multiple dogs has become very difficult unless you have a lot of money/staff.

I presume those aren't the same as the pulling collars used in the breed ring ?

 

[CorvusCorax]

No, I think it's the big wide leather collars that most people use in bitework training. Either that or a rope slip collar, it's been lost in translation somewhat.

A lot of tactical dogs (like the ones who took out people like Osama bin Laden and the Belgium bombers) don't have a trained 'out' command, so that those types of people they are apprehending don't learn it/use it to command the dog to let go.

 

[Boulty]

To add to my previous comment I see them as something 99% of dog owners should never need / as a bit of a last chance saloon thing where other methods have failed for whatever reason / would not be suitable for whatever reason. To work in a way that is ethical and fair to the dog my personal (non dog training professional with absolutely no qualifications in that field) view is that the dog should be well habituated to the collar over a period of time (maybe a few weeks?) before you ever think of deliberately putting them in a situation where you may need to use it (so that it is hopefully seen by the dog as just another thing they have to wear out & about & not associated with negative things / the act of wearing it is not in itself stressful) and that it should be used very consistently and with exquisite timing on the lowest / least aversive setting that the dog responds to) Which in theory should result in a very limited number of times that someone actually has to push the button. Would think that ideally the aim would be to eventually reach a stage the collar isn’t required. I will admit that there are probably a fairly limited number of people capable of using them in that way sadly.

 

[Jenko109]

Potential poor timing means that the stressor/aversive is unpredictable for the animal, and therefore makes the act of having the collar on much more stressful. Unpredictable stressors result in chronic stress and learned helplessness - is that not a concern?

Again.

Not relevant to the conversion I was having with the poster that my comment was in response to.

 

[Jenko109]

So there's something worse. That's all right then

Have you ever actually felt the low levels on an E collar?

 

[w1bbler]

I had a rescue dog who was a sheep chaser. She was easily re-trained by a local e-collar using trainer. She continued to wear the collar for a few months but I never needed it again. She was always happy for me to put the collar on as it meant we were going for an adventure, there did did seem to be any negative associations. The trainer put the collar on my arm & showed me the various power levels, the highest was pretty unpleasant, but not really painful.
I had been using a rewards based trainer, she helped my dog to become very obedient, but distracted by a squirrel / sheep etc all training was forgotten. I hated having to keep her on lead anywhere we might encounter livestock.
Any tool can become cruel depending on the hands that hold it, I've seen someone kicking a dog because it wasn't doing what it was told
They definitely should only be available with some sort of license, maybe licensed trainers only? Not available for anyone to buy over the Internet with no idea on how to train with it.

 

[Morwenna]

Have you ever actually felt the low levels on an E collar?

The person I know who uses one only ever uses it on the lowest setting and tried a few settings on herself first on the basis that if she can’t tolerate it then there’s no way she’d use it on her dog. The lowest setting is akin to having your phone vibrate in your pocket. It serves more as an “oh what’s that” cue to prompt her dog to look at / listen to her.

 

[skinnydipper]

Have you ever actually felt the low levels on an E collar?

I've seen shock collars used. I'm not impressed.

A beagle with poor recall wore one for every walk. Instead of training the poor dog or keeping it on a long line he got shocked when he took off.
A dog who went after other dogs didn't leave the house without one. Didn't stop the behaviour. Desensitised to its use.

I also think that if a dog did not respond to a low level then the user would ramp it up.