Electric training collars

[Cinnamontoast]

Please tell me I'm not the only one horrified by the use of these things?

I met a guy out walking his Springer this morning. OH had already met him and had answered a million questions on how to recall, what to feed etc. The dog is now coming back quite well and the bloke told me it's because he used an electric collar on him. I was horrified and let him know that I thought that was inhumane and more likely to be perceived as a punishment.

He talked over me saying it's not a punishment-er, yes, buzzing your dog is a great way to encourage it to do as told! My poor OH was horrified that I told the guy it was wrong, but I could not keep quiet! Mine come back cos I trained them to recall in the garden before ever going out and about.

 

[MurphysMinder]

You may not be the only one horrified, but quite a few (sensible imho) people on here accept that they have a use in experienced hands. Haven't got time to go into detail now but if you look back through AAD you will find quite a few discussions on e-collars.
Have to say if you had told me how to train my dog without any background information I would not have been best pleased, and no I have never used an electric collar, unless you count once on my own hand.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Have you ever tried one on you? At the lower levels they are nothing but a buzz or a tingle.

Some dogs are easy to train, some dogs are less easy to train. I wouldn't use one for recall but I have seen them used well for stopping aggression, livestock and vehicle chasing.

They should only be used under the guidance of an experienced trainer/person and used with a full understanding of what they do and what it means to the dog, and only on a suitable dog - FI if I used one on my dogs, they would probably crumble under the pressure, but not all dogs are the same and for 'harder' dogs who might not recognise, respond to or even 'take' a the voice, physicality, positive reward etc, they work well, they are unambiguous and send a clear message.

Better a buzz on the neck than a needle or a bullet.

 

[cellie]

I agree with your comments but do feel collars have a use.My friend lives close to busy road and one of her dogs is a nightmare escaping.This has solved her problems and she doesnt need it anymore .She couldnt have him causing accident on busy A road.
Easy fix for recall is not the way to go

 

[mattilda]

Whilst you are entitled to your opinion I am entitled to mine. In the right hands and used in the right way these collars are not inhumane. They can be lifesavers for dogs. I have a Petsafe electric fence around my (large) property. Although the place is also fenced securely, I have large determined dogs (rots) and the fence keeps them off the road and away from my horses. In fact they no longer wear the collars as they know the boundaries. It has a audible warning before the actual shock (which I have felt and is more of a sharp sting). They reacted to the warning and rarely felt the shock.
As for the training collars, yes I have one of those as well. When all else fails I use that. I have used it twice so far for a week or two and it worked. On both occasions I was working alone and the situation was becoming dangerous.
My dogs are happy, healthy and mostly well behaved!! They are not afraid of me or the collar and, believe me, their welfare it of utmost importance to me.

However, used incompetetly they can have devastaing effects and there I do agree with you. They should be used only when all other avenues have been exhausted to no avail. And then only by people who know what they are doing.
OK rant over. BTW am not having a go just expressing my opinion.

 

[mollichop]

I have never used them or known anyone in person that has. I think initially it's easy to think negatively of them due to the the 'electric' aspect.

However, having read of peoples (positive) experiences of them on this forum and how they have given some dogs second chances, I am not anti them, just not had the need for them as yet.

 

[FrodoBeutlin]

I grew up in a country where e-collars are illegal and therefore it does shock me to read of people using them as a training method.

I totally understand that, in the right hands and under supervision etc they might save / have saved dogs' lives but the problem is that anybody can buy them, and it's the fact that their use cannot be monitored that really terrifies me.

I think it's on here that I read of a child who had got hold of the e-collar remote control and buzzed its dog for about ten minutes before its parents realised.

There is no way to monitor who is buying these and how they are going to be used. I am glad they are illegal in my country.

I would also be really interested in reading statistics, eg in those countries where they are banned is there a higher incidence of dogs PTS because of behavioural problems?

 

[CorvusCorax]

I don't know if such statistics exist, would be very hard to collate.

I would not like to see e-collars or pinch collars banned outright but I would like to see some system where they were only sold, loaned etc through registered/approved training clubs.
The invisible fences are a different matter altogether for me, again, better a dog gets a buzz than hit by a car.

As I said in a post about pinch collars, the day I see either my dog or another dog (I would say I know at least three personally) shy away or look uncomfortable when being fitted with one of these collars, I would probably think differently. It's something I've never seen.

While this is not to say everybody should rush out and buy one, I very much think that I won't try something on a dog if I haven't tried how it feels myself (without the benefit of a double coat around my neck) I've put a pinch collar on my own neck and given it a yank, and with e-collars, at the low levels, they would be a lot less damaging that a dog constantly straining and gasping and fighting against a flat collar and lead, which is something I see almost every day.

 

[jack9]

i dont think there is a use for them with correct training that is possible.....

my dogs recall is hit and miss - therefore i keep her on an extendable.....! She has a good life, lots of runs (shes actually fast asleep and has been for 2 hours since our hour walk this morning.....)

so i dont like them as the people that use them *generally* use them wrong and as a quick fix...........
(notice generally!)........

 

[CorvusCorax]

i dont think there is a use for them with correct training that is possible.....

I think I get what you mean, but in life, and with dogs, not everything is black and white.

Some dogs are hard, harder than the dogs you or I have ever met, owned or dealt with and may not respond to or recognise what you deem as 'correct training'.

Some people may say it would be better if they were dead, I would say, try everything appropriate there is to try without souring the dogs, if it works, it works, if it doesn't, at least someone tried.

I don't think they are appropriate for gundog training (US gundog trainers in particular are BIG fans) and I do agree most things can be sorted through longterm training.
However if it is something like livetock or vehicle chasing or aggression, when traditional or positive methods have failed and the dog's life and the life of others are in danger, is a bullet or a needle really preferable to a buzz on the neck?

I'll say it again, I have never used one and can not see myself in a position where I would have to, but to flat out say they are wrong and should never be used on any dog, ever, is a bit short sighted IMO.

 

[galaxy]

I have friends who have them on their dogs so they don't go over the perimeter of their property. The dogs were trained on what would happen, and they beep before the shock. Sadly one collar failed though and one dog got out and was run over.... That is the downside to technology.

I don't know what to think of them for training. I don't think I would use one myself. But I wouldn't think badly of a proffessional, experienced dog trainer using one. (I don't have any issues in the one program I saw of Cesar Milan using one). I can't see how it would be beneficial for recall!

My boy has an anti bark spray collar on at the moment for walks (he started getting vocal and some people looked a bit worried, so nipping it in the bud. It's working a treat!). I got accosted by someone last week accusing me of it being an electric one. They back tracked quickly when I said it was a spray one!!

 

[jack9]

I think I get what you mean, but in life, and with dogs, not everything is black and white.

Some dogs are hard, harder than the dogs you or I have ever met, owned or dealt with and may not respond or recognise to what you deem as 'correct training'.

Some people may say it would be better if they were dead, I would say, try everything appropriate there is to try without souring the dogs, if it works, it works, if it doesn't, at least someone tried.

I don't think they are appropriate for gundog training (US gundog trainers in particular are BIG fans) and I do agree most things can be sorted through longterm training.
However if it is something like livetock or vehicle chasing or aggression, when traditional or positive methods have failed and the dog's life and the life of others are in danger, is a bullet or a needle really preferable to a buzz on the neck?

I'll say it again, I have never used one and can not see myself in a position where I would have to, but to flat out say they are wrong and should never be used on any dog, ever, is a bit short sighted IMO.

i absolutely agree with the vehicle chaseing etc - sometimes they really is no other option./.

for me though i would exhaust every other option before using one as i know in the wrong hands they are awful

As long as they are used correclty and every other avenue has been explored....then its a necessary evil i suppose....

 

[jack9]

My boy has an anti bark spray collar on at the moment for walks (he started getting vocal and some people looked a bit worried, so nipping it in the bud. It's working a treat!). I got accosted by someone last week accusing me of it being an electric one. They back tracked quickly when I said it was a spray one!!

i have a spray collar for when i go out (she barks badly) to the point we were going to be reported and i would have los tmy dog.... so needs must etc - shes now a happier dog with one on as she has realised i do come home... and to sleep - i come home quicker!


the halti things get me...... apparantly when i use a halti (well used to)...im cruel and shouldnt muzzle my dog........

my dog is the softest thing on 4 legs except if your under 4 foot...... (shes terrified of kids) some people ;-)

 

[FrodoBeutlin]

I think I get what you mean, but in life, and with dogs, not everything is black and white.

Some dogs are hard, harder than the dogs you or I have ever met, owned or dealt with and may not respond to or recognise what you deem as 'correct training'.

Some people may say it would be better if they were dead, I would say, try everything appropriate there is to try without souring the dogs, if it works, it works, if it doesn't, at least someone tried.

I don't think they are appropriate for gundog training (US gundog trainers in particular are BIG fans) and I do agree most things can be sorted through longterm training.
However if it is something like livetock or vehicle chasing or aggression, when traditional or positive methods have failed and the dog's life and the life of others are in danger, is a bullet or a needle really preferable to a buzz on the neck?

I'll say it again, I have never used one and can not see myself in a position where I would have to, but to flat out say they are wrong and should never be used on any dog, ever, is a bit short sighted IMO.

As I said, the issue is not the dogs at all - the issue is the humans buying them. Until that can be monitored (yes, your suggestion of getting them through a training club would be ideal!) I'd rather see them banned.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I hate to repeat myself but I think people would be surprised if they tried them on themselves! It'd like the pinch, looks like a medieval instrument of torture and something people get very het up about, but not as bad as you'd think
Again, not suggesting people should rush out willy nilly and by them, seen them used incorrectly too

 

[soloabe]

i have a spray collar for when i go out (she barks badly) to the point we were going to be reported and i would have los tmy dog.... so needs must etc - shes now a happier dog with one on as she has realised i do come home... and to sleep - i come home quicker!

I think the spray collars are far more dangerous than the e collars!

 

[blackcob]

I think the spray collars are far more dangerous than the e collars!

I think the citronella sprays especially are a godawful invention, what a thing to spray in a dog's face.

Re: the electric collars, have you all seen how much they cost? I'd like to think that that would be enough to put people off buying them on a whim and without exhausting every other avenue first.

No, I've never used one, and my untrainable dog is making enough two steps forward and one step back type progress that I don't need to, if I'm willing to be patient and consistent, but if she was still chasing my horse after all this time I'd go out and get one tomorrow.

 

[shadowboy]

I have seen them used very effectively- a yard I used to keep my horses on used to back onto an A road- the YO had two GSD's and they were left loose as guard dogs- when younger they were taught not to pass the post and rail fencing onto the main road using one of these collars- before having these two dogs the YO had lost a lovely GSD who has crossed onto the main road- despite lots of training- sheep netting not an option due to the horses (not wanting them to get legs stuck) and she said that the collar was no worse than electric fencing! Infact the buzz was not so severe as it wasnt attatched to the mains that the electic was!

I can see how they might get into the wrong hands- but even if they were banned people would find other methods for 'training' their dogs- I've tried the collar on round my leg and even on its highest settings its a short 'sting'
I would like to see a licence system or a loan system where you would have to purchace/hire from a vet or something

 

[kerilli]

i have used one very occasionally on 1 of mine - a v arrogant young bitch. i wouldn't use it on any of the others, no way. on her, on 'slight tingle' setting, it just makes her look puzzled for a second, but it just distracts her enough for me to get her attention. this dog was being horrendously naughty (in spite of a lot of time and effort) and has really turned a corner now. i don't have to use it any more...
i adore my animals and would NEVER use anything cruel. i used it on my hand on all settings first before deciding which setting to use on her...

 

[jack9]

I think the spray collars are far more dangerous than the e collars!

it does not spray them in the face.


its like a collar - therefore sprays underneath their necks - oderless if thats what someone wants....... i use the citronella scent then i know when shes been barking when i go out....


they arnt dangerous at all.

 

[soloabe]

it does not spray them in the face.


its like a collar - therefore sprays underneath their necks - oderless if thats what someone wants....... i use the citronella scent then i know when shes been barking when i go out....


they arnt dangerous at all.

I know what they are i have used one under serious supervision of 2 well respected trainers.

Which resulted in skin graft surgery for my dog after the thing burnt him.

And it wasn't user error after taking the company to court they admitted that they had had reports from vets of it happening a number of time.

 

[Kellys Heroes]

My dad who trained difficult GSDs at our local GSD club used one on our own GSD (very sensibly IMO).
We used it once as she was very dog aggressive on the lead and walking her became quite unpleasant (just to add, she is not 'fixed' as it were now, but 10 times better! She still looks and grumbles but we don't have her full on snarling, launching herself at other dogs etc) Obviously, we can't have her off lead all the time, so yes something needed to be done - she was very obedient and once we'd broken her focus she would gather herself together and listen to us and she would do anything off lead. I'd go as far to say as this collar helped us to gain a higher insight into Tara's training - knowing that she needed a strong focus change when she started the undesirable behaviour - and maybe even gave her a better quality of life knowing we were able to take her for long walks and not battle her all the way.
We used it on the lowest level just enough to give her a little buzz to break her focus - probably not much more than the circulation boosters people use!!
We were at the local park and as a spaniel ran past, she went for it full on, lips curled, snarling, hackles raised so we buzzed the collar and she jumped off all four feet onto a nearby bench and stood looking at the floor!!
For the rest of the walk, we didn't need to use it as everytime a dog walked past she just looked the other way..I forgot to add her, in no way was she frightened, cowering etc.
I wouldn't use one on her again, but I do believe that using the electric collar gave us a big step up in sorting out her problem - and in no way ever would I condone the use of it without the supervision of a trainer or people who see it as a punishment for pulling etc - I can fully see how they can aid training and rehabilitation of dogs who are aggressive in any way.

ETA...I think our GSD is just a wuss maybe as our friend used one on her Weimeraner who was people aggressive - she said she was using it on a medium level and the dog didn't even feel it!!

 

[Cinnamontoast]

Have to say if you had told me how to train my dog without any background information I would not have been best pleased

I think I mentioned that this guy has asked the OH about a million questions on feeding/training etc? We have the same breed as him and they were trained without any gadgets to recall, stop, heel, go etc. At no point did I mention telling him how to train his dog-I would not be so rude. I told him I thought it was more of a punishment for a dog (it's about 16 months). The way he was trying to get it back to him was frankly pathetic, waving at it and not even raising his voice to get it's attention. I think he said he was a first time owner: hardly an experienced handler.

Perhaps I should also mention that he walks the dog in the local woods-there are no roads/cars to worry about. Obviously, I don't stalk him at home and there may be main roads where he lives, dunno.

 

[CAYLA]

I have no issues with EC, prong collars, check chains, spray collars, they can all be abused like any other tool, inc haltis, collars and maybe even more damaging "a dog in the hands of an ********" thats has to be the most damaging.

I think alot of people who do not understand/horrified by some of these training aids have maybe never seen some of the down right dagerous behaviour displayed by some big powerful breeds of dog and even not so big and powerful, and they think of the pain it would cause themselves and NOT the dog, whose pain threshold is far more superior than us puney humans.
I have had the EC on my neck and wrist, and it's a tingley shock, again in the right hands they can be a LIFE SAVER and should only need to be used a few times.
Each to their own though, everyone is entitled to their thoughts/opinions.