Electro therapy treatment before and after video

Armas

Armas

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On Saturday morning we tried out the electro therapy treatment. It almost put Armas to sleep he seemed so relaxed. We did a short lunge prior to treatment a little video of the treatment and then we did a short lunged after treatment. He seemed much more forward going after !
Sunday was spent hacking and just having fun.
Today was another long reining session.
Tomorrow we are going to try the treatment out prior to a ridden session.
I have posted the videos as the troublesome trolls have now been removed.

​
[video=youtube_share;x9B7PVDa6rw]http://youtu.be/x9B7PVDa6rw[/video]


Todays long reining session

[video=youtube_share;h1rU_9IKsrI]http://youtu.be/h1rU_9IKsrI[/video]
 
He certainly seemed to enjoy it
However the first time on the lunge the woman kept the whip away from him second time she used it to encourage him forward. Therefore he was going to be more forward going

I haven't posted before. But have watched a few videos and do mostly like what she is doing
If this treatment costs money I wouldn't bother again as for me if she does the whip before and after its not worth it
 
soulfull said:
He certainly seemed to enjoy it
However the first time on the lunge the woman kept the whip away from him second time she used it to encourage him forward. Therefore he was going to be more forward going

I haven't posted before. But have watched a few videos and do mostly like what she is doing
If this treatment costs money I wouldn't bother again as for me if she does the whip before and after its not worth it
Click to expand...

No cost what so ever.
 
My physio always saysto give them a day off riding after they've had it done so I'm interested in why it may/ may not be ok to ride straight after
 
I have a lady to my horse who does something similar. Mine loves it and it makes a huge difference to him, hopefully it will do the same to Armas :)
 
Love his face at the start!
I think he looked better after the treatment, what is her reasons for using it? My tb can be incredibly tense over his back, wonder if something like this would help?
 
My physio will use this and like the horse to be warm to have it done and encourages low intensity riding afterwards.

More recently, we have been using ultrasound...which is much more geared towards deep tissue and that means Fly can't be ridden until 24 hours have passed.

He looks better James. Will watch with sound later but yes, I think he seems to like it and regardless of how he more forward after, his movement seems more fluid and relaxed than it normally does when he rushes the trot on the lunge.
 
We were using it to help relax his muscles. Just to clarify my reference to the troll was about forest fox mad cat lady or what ever she was called.
 
It's interesting how hard he finds cantering on a circle now that he isn't fueled by excess tension - hopefully the lower tension will allow him to build up nicely now. His trot work on the long lines has come on really well.
 
How do the electrode thingmies work? It looks like you're about to do ECT on the horse, but obviously that's not the case. :) Does anyone know how they relax the muscles?
 
He looked really relaxed and happy within himself on the long reins today, that work is beginning to look really good and established :) :)

I think I said on one of the first threads (when everyone was commenting that he was going too fast) that he looks afraid of the leg/(whip in this case) but yet still behind it and I think that is partly the reason for him dropping back into trot on the canter circles -
but the other thing that struck me was that it really was quite a 'slow' canter for him at this stage (when she had the long reins doubled back as running reins). It was generally lacking in energy and I felt that had she been able to work him outdoors and on a bigger circle then he could have worked in a more forward proper *working* canter. This would probably have helped him to find his balance better in that longer frame. He's just falling on his front a little in there.

But he's just so much more consistent in the stretchy work... James... soon be time for you to get on and learn how to re-produce that :wink3:

As for working after treatment - well, that would depend on the nature and intensity of the treatment given, surely :)
I can only speak from my own experience, but on the whole mine is worked the next day, either hacking or a stretchy bendy day in the school, much like this one he has just done. I always ask my physio and she tells me what I can do - don't think I've ever had to give a day off for a fairly routine treatment session :)
 
Caol Ila said:
How do the electrode thingmies work? It looks like you're about to do ECT on the horse, but obviously that's not the case. :) Does anyone know how they relax the muscles?
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Neuromuscular electrical stimulation (NMES) is the administration of a low level electrical current that decreases swelling and allows muscle contraction and recruitment after orthopedic or neurological injury. Frequency, pulse duration, amplitude, waveform, on/off time, ramp and polarity of electrodes are all parameters that can be adjusted when using NMES for specificity of effect. Indications for use of NMES are atrophy (muscle wasting), swelling and pain.
 
Re the EMS stimulation. I've used one of these machines for years on various horses, with great success for muscle atrophy. However, have you or your trainer been shown how to use this device? The reason that I am asking, is that you need two electrodes, one on each end of the muscle. you show only two, one on each side of the horse placed on the trapezius muscle. I don't see how this can work. If in doubt. refer to my bible on the subject, Equine Injury,Therapy,and Rehabilitation by Mary Bromiley. There are diagrams in there that clearly show which muscle groups to stimulate, and where to apply the electrodes. In the first piece of film showing Armas in cross ties, he is clearly very sore behind the withers. I would be investigating the cause of it (ie, badly fitting saddle) as well as treating it, otherwise its a vicious circle. Sorry if I'm coming across as critical, and its great that you are trying to do the best for your horse, but you need to get it right.
 
cundlegreen said:
Re the EMS stimulation. I've used one of these machines for years on various horses, with great success for muscle atrophy. However, have you or your trainer been shown how to use this device? The reason that I am asking, is that you need two electrodes, one on each end of the muscle. you show only two, one on each side of the horse placed on the trapezius muscle. I don't see how this can work. If in doubt. refer to my bible on the subject, Equine Injury,Therapy,and Rehabilitation by Mary Bromiley. There are diagrams in there that clearly show which muscle groups to stimulate, and where to apply the electrodes. In the first piece of film showing Armas in cross ties, he is clearly very sore behind the withers. I would be investigating the cause of it (ie, badly fitting saddle) as well as treating it, otherwise its a vicious circle. Sorry if I'm coming across as critical, and its great that you are trying to do the best for your horse, but you need to get it right.
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There were a corresponding two above his pelvis. Seeing as J says it doesn't cost anything I should think the trainer owns the equipment and therefore probably knows how to use it. Out of interest is muscle atrophy the only thing you use it for?
 
DabDab said:
There were a corresponding two above his pelvis. Seeing as J says it doesn't cost anything I should think the trainer owns the equipment and therefore probably knows how to use it. Out of interest is muscle atrophy the only thing you use it for?
Click to expand...
I've looked at the video again. Unfortunately, the sound has gone on the computer, but, there are only wires going to the withers. You have to have the electrodes on the same muscle, it can't jump from muscle to muscle, if you see what I mean. Anybody can buy these machines, but to get the right results, its best to have a physio show you where to put the pads. I'm using mine ATM on a box resting horse to keep his back and hindquarters well muscled, otherwise its going to take a long time to build him up when back under saddle. I've seen some remarkable results with this, but it can be used badly as well.
 
The unit belongs to my trainer she uses it on a number of her own horses she was shown how to use it by her vet. She only takes the current up to a certain level as she states higher current should only be done by a qualified person.
He had pads on his trapezius muscle and on his haunch. If you look at the video she also has her hand resting on one of the pads on his haunch at one point.
 
I haven’t posted before but have watched a few of your videos from the sales video, BB to the present rider and followed the thread with great interest. I fundamentally agree with milliepops and GG’s comments. Overall there has been a marked improvement over the last few weeks and I can see what the current rider is aiming to achieve. :smile3:

Firstly I have a couple of questions (forgive me if you have already mentioned this in previous posts but I have not had a chance to read through all of them): How long ago was Armas’ SIJ diagnosed and treated? Did he have any targeted physio/rehab after the area was medicated? This could have a bearing on what we are seeing. (For what it’s worth, there were signs of him having had hind leg issues in the sales video, so it’s not a new/acute problem.)

My main observation is that Armas is still slightly lame behind (on the last ridden and long-reining vids). In my mind this could be for one, or more likely, a combination of several reasons. There has been a marked increase in the intensity of his workload. That, in itself, and in normal training circumstances may not cause any problems, however if there is a specific muscle weakness (often the gluteals and biceps femoris, which is an important stabiliser for the hind limb) that is residual from the original SIJ problem he may be fatiguing more rapidly than in ‘normal’ circumstances with the more intense, collected work. As the muscle fatigues, he may compensate by (often imperceptibly) altering his movement. This, in turn, tends to change the forces going through the SIJ and can ‘irritate’ the joint and associated soft tissues. Another possibility is that the effects of the medication have worn off (I am assuming he was medicated with something like corticosteroid?) and, again due to a lack of stability in the specific muscle groups, the increased work intensity may aggravate the SIJ.

He also looks tight through the lumbar part of his back- there is a lack of up-down ’bounce’ movement in this area, in trot and canter. This is most likely secondary compensation for his hind limb issues but something to be aware of as, in my experience, it is unlikely to improve unless the hind leg issues are resolved. In the longer term, it could lead to back problems.

With regard to his work, I am not an advocate of stopping all the schooling work or just hacking as this will just cause muscle wastage and decrease the hind leg and SIJ stability. It may be prudent, however to reduce the amount or duration of the very collected work, as this requires a high degree of strength and stability (try hopping on one leg for a few minutes!!) :wink3:, thus will cause rapid fatigue. A lot of small circle-work also places greater strain on the hind leg joints (including the SIJ). Lots of transitions are good though. Perhaps reducing the schooling sessions to 3-4 times a week and doing some ‘easier’ work (long-reining on straight lines/large circles, hacking, pole-work) in between to allow recovery.

Another question: what was the rationale for putting the electrodes either side of the withers? I am not suggesting what she was doing was wrong because the back muscles are very long and in effect continuous, thus any treatment at the front will have some effect further back. However, as Armas’ main stiffness is under the back of and behind the saddle, might it be useful to concentrate treatment on that area?

I hope that this makes sense and that I haven’t come across as negative about your horse or what you have done with him because that is not my intention.
 
Rexyrhubarb said:
I haven’t posted before but have watched a few of your videos from the sales video, BB to the present rider and followed the thread with great interest. I fundamentally agree with milliepops and GG’s comments. Overall there has been a marked improvement over the last few weeks and I can see what the current rider is aiming to achieve. :smile3:

Firstly I have a couple of questions (forgive me if you have already mentioned this in previous posts but I have not had a chance to read through all of them): How long ago was Armas’ SIJ diagnosed and treated? Did he have any targeted physio/rehab after the area was medicated? This could have a bearing on what we are seeing. (For what it’s worth, there were signs of him having had hind leg issues in the sales video, so it’s not a new/acute problem.)

My main observation is that Armas is still slightly lame behind (on the last ridden and long-reining vids). In my mind this could be for one, or more likely, a combination of several reasons. There has been a marked increase in the intensity of his workload. That, in itself, and in normal training circumstances may not cause any problems, however if there is a specific muscle weakness (often the gluteals and biceps femoris, which is an important stabiliser for the hind limb) that is residual from the original SIJ problem he may be fatiguing more rapidly than in ‘normal’ circumstances with the more intense, collected work. As the muscle fatigues, he may compensate by (often imperceptibly) altering his movement. This, in turn, tends to change the forces going through the SIJ and can ‘irritate’ the joint and associated soft tissues. Another possibility is that the effects of the medication have worn off (I am assuming he was medicated with something like corticosteroid?) and, again due to a lack of stability in the specific muscle groups, the increased work intensity may aggravate the SIJ.

He also looks tight through the lumbar part of his back- there is a lack of up-down ’bounce’ movement in this area, in trot and canter. This is most likely secondary compensation for his hind limb issues but something to be aware of as, in my experience, it is unlikely to improve unless the hind leg issues are resolved. In the longer term, it could lead to back problems.

With regard to his work, I am not an advocate of stopping all the schooling work or just hacking as this will just cause muscle wastage and decrease the hind leg and SIJ stability. It may be prudent, however to reduce the amount or duration of the very collected work, as this requires a high degree of strength and stability (try hopping on one leg for a few minutes!!) :wink3:, thus will cause rapid fatigue. A lot of small circle-work also places greater strain on the hind leg joints (including the SIJ). Lots of transitions are good though. Perhaps reducing the schooling sessions to 3-4 times a week and doing some ‘easier’ work (long-reining on straight lines/large circles, hacking, pole-work) in between to allow recovery.

Another question: what was the rationale for putting the electrodes either side of the withers? I am not suggesting what she was doing was wrong because the back muscles are very long and in effect continuous, thus any treatment at the front will have some effect further back. However, as Armas’ main stiffness is under the back of and behind the saddle, might it be useful to concentrate treatment on that area?

I hope that this makes sense and that I haven’t come across as negative about your horse or what you have done with him because that is not my intention.
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Hi Rexyrhubarb,

Welcome.... His SIJ was treated with 2 cortisone injection 6 months ago so the affects will have worn off by now.

He has always had muscle weakness in his haunch. I suspect lack of or incorrect work on Spain.

Schooling vares minimum 1 long reining session per week some times 2 and 3 or 4 ridden sessions.

Pads were placed over the shoulders and on the haunch.

I have seen a steady improvement in the last month with his movement so do think we are on the right track.

Thank you for taking the time to post some very interesting information. I understand you are an equine physiotherapist shame your not based in France.
 
I love watching Armas videos. He seems like such a sweetie.

I have never heard of NMES, is it similar to a TENS machine? It looks to be contracting the muscles, sort of warming them up, stimulating blood flow and the lymphatic system and also maybe hitting any active myo-fascial trigger points on the area the electrode thingo sits?

My only concern is it treats only a small portion of Armas looking at one specific area rather than his body as a whole. Treating one area will alleviate symptoms but until the whole picture is addressed then the issue may keep re-occuring. His SIJ problems would more than likely be contributing to tightness and muscle pain in his front end as he will not be using his back end properly and compensating with his front end.

Also his Trapezius did seem really reactive, it is hard to get a accurate picture on video from the other side of the world but, how are his Caudal Deep Pectoral Muscles and his Serratus Ventralis? They are the ones that poor saddle fit can affect along with the Thoracic part of the Rhomboid, Trapezius and Longissimus. Basically run your hand down behind his front leg from his shoulder to between his front legs. If he bites, twitches, puts his ears back, stamps his foot or shows any discomfort, please get your saddle looked at. That way the benefits from his trainers NMES will be able to work better on Armas's muscles. :)

Keep up the videos :)
 
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I have a similar machine and they are a very useful tool.
It's a shame you can't kidnap Rhexyrhurbarb and have her there for eight weeks as that's really what I would have if Arams was in the UK a Equine physio is assess where you are weekly and attend to the muscles.
I would also probally use a bodyworker of some type.
Passive stretching of the limbs and using carrots to get him the move the neck through the ranges is a good thing to.
My physio has taught me a lot about how to manage horses in hard work and with particular issues too.
Mary Bromleys book is good and would be a good buy for you James.
The other thing I would do with Armas is something I am buliding at home ATM with imput from my physio ( she's a friend ) in your woods at home I would use fallen branches pulled across parts of where you ride
To make an area where the horse has to step over things on the ground all the time you put them on undulating and uneven places to make the horse think hard about where he places his feet ( we are talking about walking) .
You can do this on long or loose riens ridden and on long lines as well , I make it game and they love it it's very good for them and it's better for them to stretch their range them selves to problem solve than for us to push them to it .
It's simple to do cheap to build ( as long as you are lucky enough to have the forest which you do ) and it's a great thing for hot days . I am having a lot of fun with it.
I agree with the poster who said nows the time to get and and start the training yourself James if you could do the stretching work just for ten minutes say on your hacking days it would be great.
I am glad your back I was not sure my brain to take developing a Facebook habit as well as my HHO habit.
 
NaeNae87 said:
I love watching Armas videos. He seems like such a sweetie.

I have never heard of NMES, is it similar to a TENS machine? It looks to be contracting the muscles, sort of warming them up, stimulating blood flow and the lymphatic system and also maybe hitting any active myo-fascial trigger points on the area the electrode thingo sits?

My only concern is it treats only a small portion of Armas looking at one specific area rather than his body as a whole. Treating one area will alleviate symptoms but until the whole picture is addressed then the issue may keep re-occuring. His SIJ problems would more than likely be contributing to tightness and muscle pain in his front end as he will not be using his back end properly and compensating with his front end.

Also his Trapezius did seem really reactive, it is hard to get a accurate picture on video from the other side of the world but, how are his Caudal Deep Pectoral Muscles and his Serratus Ventralis? They are the ones that poor saddle fit can affect along with the Thoracic part of the Rhomboid, Trapezius and Longissimus. Basically run your hand down behind his front leg from his shoulder to between his front legs. If he bites, twitches, puts his ears back, stamps his foot or shows any discomfort, please get your saddle looked at. That way the benefits from his trainers NMES will be able to work better on Armas's muscles. :)

Keep up the videos :)
Click to expand...

NMES similar principal to TENS machine I think. Saddle fits well the trainers BF is a saddle fitter so I have had him look over my saddle to ensure it is a good fit.
The current work should help with strengthening his back the NMES is helping relax the muscles. I used the machine again today sam set up as the last session. I had my hand on his haunch and could really feel the muscles twitching.

Ill post the video later from todays session later. I think the treatment prior to the session has really helped his movement today was much much more relaxed taking the contact stretching forward and much straighter.

Goldenstar said:
I have a similar machine and they are a very useful tool.
It's a shame you can't kidnap Rhexyrhurbarb and have her there for eight weeks as that's really what I would have if Arams was in the UK a Equine physio is assess where you are weekly and attend to the muscles.
I would also probally use a bodyworker of some type.
Passive stretching of the limbs and using carrots to get him the move the neck through the ranges is a good thing to.
My physio has taught me a lot about how to manage horses in hard work and with particular issues too.
Mary Bromleys book is good and would be a good buy for you James.
The other thing I would do with Armas is something I am buliding at home ATM with imput from my physio ( she's a friend ) in your woods at home I would use fallen branches pulled across parts of where you ride
To make an area where the horse has to step over things on the ground all the time you put them on undulating and uneven places to make the horse think hard about where he places his feet ( we are talking about walking) .
You can do this on long or loose riens ridden and on long lines as well , I make it game and they love it it's very good for them and it's better for them to stretch their range them selves to problem solve than for us to push them to it .
It's simple to do cheap to build ( as long as you are lucky enough to have the forest which you do ) and it's a great thing for hot days . I am having a lot of fun with it.
I agree with the poster who said nows the time to get and and start the training yourself James if you could do the stretching work just for ten minutes say on your hacking days it would be great.
I am glad your back I was not sure my brain to take developing a Facebook habit as well as my HHO habit.
Click to expand...

The thing I have enjoyed from these threads is the amount of information sharing some extremely useful advice and practical advice.

I have already a number of small trees that I have felled and placed along the forest paths ! Last week were long reining whist using poles and will do another session this week. The long reining pole work really helped stretch his movement.

I am going to pick up my lessons with the trainer at the end of the month.

Do have a look back later for todays session as it went really well.
 
Armas said:
I have already a number of small trees that I have felled and placed along the forest paths ! Last week were long reining whist using poles and will do another session this week. The long reining pole work really helped stretch his movement.
Click to expand...

Yes that session was really good - Armas was really thinking and really using his body in a way he probably never has before, and there was a distinct improvement in particular aspects of the ridden work the next session. Once you're back riding you should get the trainer to do a session like that with him every so often.
 
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