Elvis Vetting update - WWYD?

[Pigeon]

I'm another who would be reluctant to buy a horse with a gait abnormality. Too much risk of it turning sinister. Especially 'may be' stringhalt. At least stringhalt is a known entity, but that was all too vague.

In this case, it sounds like there is some dispute as to whether the horse has an abnormality at all. I would get a second opinion on the hind legs, and if he passes the neurological tests (which I would have done anyway) I don't think you have too much to worry about. He's made it til 10 and is out competing, that's a good sign.

 

[googol]

I know! I'm absolutely gutted right now and really don't know what to do for the best.

I was present at the vetting...literally hopped off a plane and toddled off to the yard. I suspect it's nothing major as he was in a bit of a funny mood full stop today which I'd say is down to lack of turnout and less than pleasant weather...he managed to ****** off twice during the trot up but was a saint under saddle. At a guess I'd say he was a bit peed off with all the poking and prodding and getting a bit fidgety...but then again my vet is far more experienced than I am in these matters and there seems little point in vetting in the first place if I'm just going to ignore the findings.

He sounds exactly like my horse who would be annoyed at the poking and prodding, ****** off for the trot ups but be perfectly behaved under saddle! Mine even does the shaky leg thing. His legs also shake as he gets down to roll. I've had him 4 years and he has done it the whole time I have had him, I also had him vetted but the vetting didn't pick it up. I had him at the vets over winter because he tripped quite badly a few times with his hind end and I wanted to get him checked out. That was the first lameness examination he has had when I've had him. Vet says he has mild wobblers and might be slightly ataxic (sp) he also said it was so mild it doesn't affect him and warned me not to google it. I was given the all clear to carry on. We only do low level riding club stuff but he's ridden 5/6 times per week, never has much more than a few days off and that's been the case the whole time I have owned him, so, touch wood, no issues. While I was at the vet I was talking about vettings hypothetically (because my sisters horse is terminally lame now and a happy hacker at best but was also fully vetted much more recently). His advice was to get a vetting to point out anything "obvious" but that it's only a snap shot of time, and buying horses can be a bit of a lottery, but his best advice was to buy something that is currently doing similar activities and at the rough level you will be expecting, as he felt that's the best way of knowing that it will hold up to your job. I think that's good sensible advice and if I ever buy another horse I will have a 5 stage vetting, x Rays from kness/hocks down, And il try to find something that fits that criteria. Il still have sleepless nights no doubt but that would satisfy me. Hopefully that's given you food for thought. Good luck with whatever step you take next

 

[Pilib]

Sounds a bit like shivers, which I believe may progress over time, though not entirely sure. I would want to be certain of the diagnosis before making a decision.

Exactly my thoughts, sounds like shivers not stringhalt. My horse has both! 😂 it wouldn't put my off buying a horse but it would affect how much I paid. X

 

[Dave's Mam]

Locking stifle? After the patella clicks into place, it can look like mild stringhalt with elevated step. Common in younguns after a growth spurt, or undermuscled neds.

 

[Goldenstar]

Is it worth a punt that's the question ,
How would you cope if it all goes wrong you see I am hard enough and big headed enough to take the decision that it's worth the risk to the horse to come here and have the chance of a permanent home here but I know I would PTS if it all went wrong and it would not do the job I wanted .
I always look at vetting of older more established horses as a fishing exercise that helps learn things about how I need to manage in the future .
I never insure so that makes it easy for me .
I would ask for disclosure of all the horses vets records and if that shows any indication it's been flagged up as an issue in the past I would walk away if not if you love the horse offer them £2000 or 2500 take it or leave it.

 

[*Whinney*]

Loads of great advice FF and I hope everything works out for the best. If you don't buy him at least you have had the pleasure of meeting him and being introduced to a lovely WB.

I don;t know anything about stringhalt except that last year I was walking down off the moor and ended up behind a woman leading her horse between fields. I called out to her as soemthing seemed very wrong behind. She thanked me and said the mare had strighalt, TB, early 20s and had been hunting until a couple of years before. Now still gently hacking on Exmoor. 'she just walks funny' is exactly how she put it. Turned out the lady is my next door but two neighbour and we chat regularly. Mare is fine and getting ready to start summer hacking.

So he has a saddle that doesn't fit, hasn't had much turnout recently and probably not ridden much as the seller thought he was sold pretty much.

And the vets conclusion was stringhalt? Second opinion if you really need one but my guess: stiffness. Any horse would be the same and a badly fitting saddle really messes up their movement.

My first thought was also along these lines. FF how big is he? Was he properly balanced when she did the pick up?

If he is a big heavy boy, little turnout, sore back anyway, well it could hurt a bit to go through a vetting.

Just rambling thoughts FF but can you stand balanced on one foot and put a sock on in a non rushed way? You know that twinge in the hip and pull under the thigh if you wobble a bit and the lifted leg tries to counter balance? This is how I think it feels for a horse when we pick their hinds up. Schooled horses are taught to carry their weight in their hinds and then we ask them to hold it on one leg. A big ask for a poss 700kg horse.

 

[*Whinney*]

How much for hind x-rays? Would that answer questions you have?

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

Whether it's true string halt or string halt like symptoms I wouldn't be paying 5K for something with a gait abnormality

Nor would I, the price reduction did not take in to consideration this problem, its got to reduce the price significantly. Difficult.
£5K seems a lot, and the vet can offer his opinion on the price if he wants to.

 

[FestiveFuzz]

What breed is he and has he been eating straw? I ask because a friends quarter horse cross had similar symptoms when eating straw in her bed regularly. Research showed it was an unusual side effect and once the breeding was changed it went away. Just a thought

Interesting you say that as he's been on limited turnout on a straw bed which I've witnessed him eating. Have you got links to the research? Would be interesting to have a read.

 

[webble]

Interesting you say that as he's been on limited turnout on a straw bed which I've witnessed him eating. Have you got links to the research? Would be interesting to have a read.

PSSM it's called, it may not be that but it's another thing to at least consider http://www.baileyshorsefeeds.co.uk/feedingexplained/browsearticles:384.htm

 

[FestiveFuzz]

I'm going to see if they'll let me get my physio out to take a look at him and go from there. The vet didn't think there was much point in going down the route of xrays or scans as she didn't think it would show however a few articles I've read since suggest otherwise.

Agree about stiffness and the saddle. In honesty I hadn't realised how badly the saddle fitted until I was scrutinising videos on the plane back last night. Surprised I missed it at first glance but suspect that was down to the excitement of finding something that ticked all the boxes.

 

[stormox]

The traditional way ( before electromyopathy) to identify stringhalt was to back the horse, and/or turn it sharply round and round,in its own length. What you describe doesn't sound like stringhalt to me. Did he only do the 'snatching' once, or was it consistant every time the foot was picked up? If he was consistantly doing it each time the foot was lifted it does sound more like shivers, or a slightly sticky patella. If it was a one-off I would ignore it.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

It will likely cause an insurance exclusion. One one leg, or totally.

 

[FfionWinnie]

If it's PSSM which was my first thought I hate to say, I would strongly recommend you do not buy him. It is NOT as simple as being caused by eating a straw bed and it won't simply be fixed by eliminating that.

This is from someone who has a PSSM horse who is perfectly controlled and appears completely normal and symptom free and is utterly and absolutely loved and worshipped!

If you really love the horse get a second opinion from an equine vet. The vet comments sound very unclear so I would also clarify these.

 

[SusieT]

I think you need a second opinion. I think you need to x-ray his hocks at the very least and I think an experieinced equine vet would not be so wishy washy. I'd wonder why only one leg was affected and suspect your insuance will exclude the limb.

 

[SusieT]

please don't use a physio - spend the money on an expert vet and get x-rays for a second opinion.

 

[webble]

If it's PSSM which was my first thought I hate to say, I would strongly recommend you do not buy him. It is NOT as simple as being caused by eating a straw bed and it won't simply be fixed by eliminating that.

This is from someone who has a PSSM horse who is perfectly controlled and appears completely normal and symptom free and is utterly and absolutely loved and worshipped!

If you really love the horse get a second opinion from an equine vet. The vet comments sound very unclear so I would also clarify these.

Sorry no it isn't and I didn't mean to imply it was. It was very mild in my friends horse and altering the diet had so far managed it is what I should have written. I couldn't remember the details when I first posted and then couldn't edit

 

[FestiveFuzz]

Thanks for all the comments guys. Lots to think about there.

Shivers or PSSM would be an instant walk away decision. I've had a couple of links from the sellers YO regarding stringhalt and how essential it is to be properly diagnosed as they took offence at the mere mention of him being a little funny through that back leg yesterday so I'm half tempted to suggest they pay for the second opinion from our vets practice if they're so convinced I should be ignoring my vets advice and buying anyway.

I do see it from both sides though and appreciate if the horse has been performing well without incident for the last 5 years it would be hard to accept a vet bringing up something that may impact the horse long term.

Plan of action as it stands is speak to insurers this morning and check where I stand with the R hind. I suspect as others have said, they'll exclude the whole leg in which case I'll walk away and try to recoup my deposit as I'm only walking away due to the findings of the vetting and the exclusions they bring.

If however the insurers aren't going to exclude it, I will go down the route of getting our head of practice out alongside my physio and see what they think as I don't like the way the current vet has been so vague. My YO is speaking with her this morning to check this is the case and not just me being too tired to take it all in.

I'm half tempted to ask for a month's trial with him to see how he is once he's in a routine and getting daily turnout, however I'm somewhat reluctant to do that as I could just be a month down the line with a horse I'm more attached to that's still exhibiting issues.

 

[stormox]

Can you go and see the horse again and really test him, -spin him, turn him, back him etc -try and take a very experienced person or another vet with you? If it was just a one-off and he doesnt do it again I would strongly suspect there was nothing wrong with him. I had a vet fail a horse I was selling on a 'hay allergy'....because he had green slime round his mouth as Id fed him pony nuts during the eye exam!! And another one failed the vet on a 'suspected dropped hip'... he sailed through another buyers vetting the next day!
And if the horse doesnt show anything you may not be entitled to your deposit back- as you said the vet has said he is capable of doing everything you want him to do.

 

[hollyandivy123]

ok he might be your dream horse but at that price i would walk there are plenty of others, most have just started to advertise as we are in spring

 

[RunToEarth]

I would get a second opinion and ask whether the sellers' would at least be prepared to contribute to the cost. In your initial description it sounds much more fitting of shivers than stringhalt. Having had a horse who deteriorated significantly with shivers, I wouldn't touch it if it were anything like that.

 

[Damnation]

Stringhalt wouldn't bother me.

Myself and another user on here (Shavings) used to share (she owned him) a Thoroughbred called Major and he had quite a bad stringhalt. Never really impacted him under saddle, just if he was sore or asked to move back in his stable.

He had a hard racing life as a flat and jump racer, retired from racing at 12 and I believe he is coming up to 26 odd years old and the girl who has him now still pops small jumps and hacks him in all paces around the local plantation!

So no, it would be a haggling point for me but I wouldn't turn a horse down because of it.

 

[Stockers]

Nothing to add but sorry to hear this.

 

[Annagain]

I'd get a 2nd opinion BEFORE speaking to the insurance company. If a second vet finds nothing, I'd then go to the insurance company armed with all the information and see what they say. The danger with speaking to them now is that they could apply exclusions and then a 2nd vet could fine nothing but you're stuck.

I'd also ask then to make sure he's had plenty of turnout (or at least as much as you'll be able to give him) before a vet sees him again so they get a truer picture of how he'd be in the conditions in which you would to be keeping him.

 

[stormox]

I would do it the other way, annagain- have him worked hard, then stood in- its when theyr first brought out after standing these things tend to show up.

 

[Annagain]

I can see an argument both ways, I just think it would allow them to eliminate stiffness as a possible cause and therefore if it's still a problem it's clear there's a real issue.

 

[sarcasm_queen]

To echo everyone else, get a second opinion.

And honestly, take the vetting with a pinch of salt. Pony we bought many years ago had known hock problems, vet was quite worried about it, we decided to pay to have his hocks injected every 6 months, he never had a lame day. New horsey was vetted, passed with flying colours, had to be retired 6 months later because of kissing spines.
If you really like him (and you can get him for a decent price) then I'd probably take a punt.

 

[Luci07]

There have been 3 different suggestions on here as to what it could be (I am in the locking patella camp) but not knowing what you are really dealing with is what would make me walk away. If you are really keen, then I would speak to your vet to understand the costs of finding out exactly what this is and what the costs are of investigation. As for the vet offering a value, that's normal. If there is any issue, then yes, this must be declared to your insurers and yes, they will exclude it. It's all very well for people to say vetting are irrelevant because 6 months later, their horse developed X...I have walked away from a cracking horse as my vet was not happy about the hocks. Advised X Ray's, turned out said horse had massive issues. Another vetting and vet pointed out problems we hadn't picked up. A vetting doesn't give you a lifetimes worth of get of free jail cards, but it will greatly reduce your risks and I listen to what my vet says.

 

[gunnergundog]

I want to do dressage up to elementary/medium level

Whether it's locking patella, shivers, stringhalt or stiffness if you truly are serious about competing at elementary/medium affiliated dressage WALK AWAY!

Stiffness can sometimes be managed - to an extent - but it only ever gets worse with age and further wear/tear.

Save yourself the heartache and further vet bills would be my advice.

 

[FestiveFuzz]

Quick update. The seller has decided to withdraw from the sale as she doesn't feel comfortable with me getting a second opinion and is questioning whether I'm the right home for him which frankly I find incredibly insulting given I'm doing everything possible to ensure I have all the facts before proceeding as I wanted to make sure I was taking on a problem I couldn't afford or cater for later down the line. They've asked for his vetting certificate as apparently there are other buyers waiting, however I'm not willing to release this unless they cover the costs of the vetting as at this point I was still willing to proceed upon agreement to release his vet notes to date and a second opinion.

I suspect in reality there's more to it and that I've really had a lucky escape but for now I'm absolutely gutted