Emotionally Damaged Cob - what would you do?

tobiano1984

tobiano1984

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I just wanted to see what people think on a fairly anonymous forum, as it's hard to talk about with people who are more closely connected. I've posted about Emotionally Damaged Cob quite a bit on here, mostly success stories. However I've come to a point where I need to give some serious thought to his future. For those who haven't seen previous posts, quick synopsis:
Bought from an unpleasant dealer for pennies 3 years ago (bit of a mercy buy) - was unrideable (about to go to auction) - turned out not to be unrideable, just terrified - lots of love and TLC and careful retraining, with a couple of blips but generally positive - lots of physio to straighten him out - Xrays to check back all OK - 2 years later winning at low level dressage - discovers he loves jumping especially XC - starts eventing - won first ODE - placed in two BE80s - happily jumping up to 95cm in comps, 1.20 at home.

So - all good at this point, however he's still not an easy horse. At competitions he hates the warm up especially SJ and gets very tense upset. At home he's happy as larry and then something will upset him and trigger some sort of PTSD. Most recently this was being kicked (hefty cut, no lameness) by another horse in the field - this sent him into 'crisis mode' and he became temporarily unrideable. Got over this but slightly back a few stages in terms of schooling, really he's just happy hacking. Today one of my liveries was pressure washing their stable and EDC was in his stable shaking with his head on the floor, heart pounding - I had to take him outside.

I've had a communicator/Reiki lady treat him a few times (I know some will scoff, believe me I have my doubts but will try anything if it seems to work!) who has done great things for him and really helped, she concurred with my belief that he's had a very traumatic past. He's from Ireland, he's got some nasty scars on one side of his neck/shoulder that look like blunt force trauma. She said he's been beaten/tied up/knocked over (make of that what you will). I also know of the dealer he came from and I know that he likes to 'ride the buck out of them' in spurs, so that adds to the back story. He freaks out when there's a farrier here - particularly the hot shoeing bit. Luckily he's barefoot and quite happy with his trimmer. I think he's just had a really rough start to life, and he is not a tough cob at all - he's very sensitive. He loves babies (horses and children), he literally wouldn't hurt a fly (I actually saw him pause and step over a dying beetle in the barn), he's the most gentle creature I've ever met.

So that's where we're at, and although he is a million times better than when I got him, I just can't help but feel he can't cope with 'normal' horse life. He does for a bit, then doesn't. Today he also freaked out because I put new pellets in his stable and he couldn't walk on them. I have my own yard, he's best friends with my main horse, gets a bit picked on by the young warmblood I'm selling at the moment. Although I initially bought him to sell on, he really doesn't like anyone else riding him (although happy to be handled by anyone nice) so I decided to keep him. My other 2 are almost exclusively dressage, so I thought it would be fun to have something to do proper hacks on, jump, do some low level eventing on. However now I wonder if he would be happier doing something else. Just because we get to a good place and then something happens and it falls apart again. It's a bit demoralising for all concerned and just makes me think maybe he would rather be retired. He's only 9 but his body is old, he clicks in all his joints, he's not very supple and I think just has a lot of wear and tear. My options, as I see them, are:

1 - push on, carry on what we're doing, hope the blips get less and less and get him out competing again (hasn't done much since last summer due to my MSc studies) and see if he is happier when he's doing stuff.
2 - retire him to a hack at home, this isn't ideal as I don't have endless time and also he would still be exposed to the daily livery yard goings on which he doesn't always love (farriers, DIY etc)
3 - do the above for a bit, when I'm in the right financial position (i.e. not a student) send him to a nice retirement livery to live out his days in peace and quiet
4 - loan him out - as a companion or he'd be an excellent foal nanny, very low maintenance, doesn't kick so ideal for precious babies

I have in the past considered loaning him out as a hack, but I couldn't guarantee that he wouldn't freak out with a different rider (he's had them before and been ok, but tends to build up worry and get miserable) so wouldn't feel comfortable with this really unless it was someone really, really suitable.

Massive props to anyone who has read this far. I'd appreciate thoughts from 'outsiders' and hope the above all makes sense. It's upset me a bit, I don't want to give up on him especially since he can be so talented but I also recognise certain emotional things going on that I'm not sure I can fix.
x
 
I would be spending a few £££ on magnesium oxide and supplementing daily for a few weeks to see if it made any difference. Spooking at things he ought to be used to is what made me realise mine was deficient and he is fine with pretty much everything several years on. Cheap enough and quick enough to be worth doing if only for elimination purposes
 
JillA said:
I would be spending a few £££ on magnesium oxide and supplementing daily for a few weeks to see if it made any difference. Spooking at things he ought to be used to is what made me realise mine was deficient and he is fine with pretty much everything several years on. Cheap enough and quick enough to be worth doing if only for elimination purposes
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He's had all that, in fact he has it in his supplement at the moment. He's not remotely spooky though, most bomb proof horse on the yard!
 
from your description of what you know of his background, I'd actually say that 3 years is not that long to work on improving his outlook and general ability to cope.
I have a horse who could be described as emotionally damaged... she's not been mistreated in a violent way but she was kept on her own with no company and given no leadership by her previous owners and she was really very screwed up when I got her. Very anxious, hyper reactive, extremely rude as a result as she was always on high alert, uneducated and also knew how to overpower people. I didn't know the extent of what I was taking on, thinking I'd reback her and sell her as a RC prospect.... so i know what it's like when you end up with an animal that needs a lot of help.

Mine is probably easier because she has *mostly* worked through the trust thing with me after nearly 3 years, so the amount of brain-management I do with her is pretty minimal these days. But having resigned myself to keeping her for the rest of her days (;) ) I now only play to her strengths, so we don't do any of the things she still struggles with, there's no need.

That's a long winded way of saying... I don't think any of your options would be bad ones. Personally I wouldn't choose to loan him to a ridden home unless a 1 in a million person came along. If you want to keep getting him out and about, I would think that although he may always find it a bit tricky, he will probably continue to improve.

No doubt others will say retirement is the right choice... but if he enjoys aspects of his work then I would see no harm in continuing what you're doing. The ones that have been screwed up take so much longer than training blank canvasses though.

one final thought, and this may be relevant or totally inappropriate - you can be the judge, I'm just putting it out there... could you be babying him a little bit still because you know his history? Sort of enabling him to have these over reactions, albeit not intentionally.
Sometimes, just sometimes, it helps them to be told to just deal with something - whether it's the new pellets or the farrier (from a distance).. in an environment where they are actually safe and can't come to any physical harm.
Dunno, the day mine learned to take a bit of mental pressure was a good day, it's been the making of her actually though we had to approach the concept with sensitivity! :p

Good luck whatever you decide.
 
First of all look at the positives, you have given him a stable home for three years, which is more than many get.
I have a traumatised broodmare, coincidently from Ireland, I have had her for four years and her owner had her four years, so for at least eight years she has never had a harsh treatment. She lives with another brood mare and everything is done to a routine. She will not take food from your hand and hates to be, caught or touched but will stand for the farrier. The slightest deviation will send her into stress mode and she will stand trembling. This will be her last home.
Good loan homes are hard to find, but if he will hack with others perhaps someone would take him on. I used to lone out a pony with separation anxiety and how he was kept was detailed in the loan agreement, because although he was safe to ride he could mow you over on the ground.
I think try loaning him and see who comes along, there may be someone for him. Perhaps if he had a confident regular horsey hacking buddy, we have a Welsh A that is every things security blanket, he would settle.
 
Thanks guys - I definitely don't think I'd loan him out ridden. He's safe as houses to hack but I just don't trust him not to go weird on someone new and couldn't bear for someone to get hurt. He's never tried to get me off, but did launch his previous rider (my groom at the time) a few times. Really, if he doesn't stay with me to be ridden he would be retiring in one way or another.

Milliepops - you're probably right re. the babying bit, e.g. today I took him outside to chill because he was so disturbed by the pressure washer. I know to some extent he should get on with it, but I also can't watch him suffer. With some things, like putting cream on cuts or administering fly spray which he hates, I just tell him to get on with it, but there are weird things like the farrier that send him almost catatonic, I almost feel like he might drop dead at any moment! And unfortunately those kind of things can then translate into ridden work. I'm pretty strict with him when riding, and he can take a lot more than he used to - didn't used to be able to put the leg on, can now.
 
ps - he NEVER spooks, never kicks, never pushes or shoves - if something frightens him he just shuts down, which I think is the result of a violent past. He just tries to make himself small and keeps his head down - it's really quite heartbreaking! You may think he's asleep in the corner of the stable until you look closer and his eyes are wide and he's breathing fast and shaking
 
I'd do a mixture of your options - keep on with him, but if necessary drop him down to hacking at home for periods when he needs it.

Depending on your set up, do you have anything like a small paddock next to the yard, where you could turn him out for things like farrier visits? Somewhere he could see what's going on, but hopefully without feeling trapped as he would in a box, so you relieve that pressure and perhaps make it easier for him to process rather than just going into.panic / shutdown mode?
 
I've a pony who's a little like this. He's a small companion but he does freeze when anything upsets him. Mostly he's fine but struggles with anything to do with his head or mouth.
He's a lot older than your boy and I feel if I couldn't keep him for any reason I'd seriously have to consider his future as really can't see him settling with anyone else.
Not much help to you but I do understand your problem.
 
milliepops said:
from your description of what you know of his background, I'd actually say that 3 years is not that long to work on improving his outlook and general ability to cope.
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I'de agree with this. We have a warmblood on our yard that has taken many years (7-8) to settle and become more confident with normal stuff. He had a traumatic start in life but possibly not as bad as your lad. He is really gentle on the ground and will happily stand to be groomed and fussed all day. However, anything different can be quite traumatic and needs to be handled with tact and empathy. Some years ago he pulled back while his owner was trying to administer some wormer then just stood shaking expecting to be beaten. It was one of the most upsetting behaviours I've seen in a horse. After a lot of reassurance and quiet handling he is now ok to be wormed. He still has to be heavily sedated for the dentist but over the years has got more confident with the farrier. He lives out 24/7 in a settled herd of 5-6. It is only in the last year that he has stopped pacing the fence line if any of the other horses in the herd were taken in - there were big ridges up and down one field where he constantly walked until the absent herd member returned.

I'm guessing that if you can cope with three steps forward and two steps back then he will continue to improve, but it will be a long, long haul! Good luck with whatever you decide.
 
Do what makes him happy. You know him better than anyone on here so are best placed to decide which route to take.

I remember this horse and how chuffed you were with him and recall that he was happiest out hacking about. Could you find him someone who'd be willing to share him? He stays with you but gradually is introduced to another rider?

Maybe his progress goes unnoticed by you now that it is more gradual. Maybe keeping a diary would help so that you can look back and compare.

I have taken to a little rescue horse and it's going to take time. He's on holiday from schooling livery at the moment and he's been at home with me a month. I have an abundance of hawthorn which is going feral and luckily my two donks love a branch or 3 to eat. The first time I got the loppers out Job had a meltdown... last night he had his cheek on mine whilst I chopped a few branches. Perhaps not that much use in the grand scale of things, but I like to think that me knocking about the paddock doing 'scary' stuff is helping to gain Job's trust and exposing him to normal human behaviour. He has been starved and ill treated and it's left him timid and bewildered, but he is making progress, it's only when I look back that I realise how far he's come.

Job has lots of quirks and foibles and fears; it's going to take time but I am enjoying the journey with him.

Hope you find a solution and realise that you should be proud of how far you've come with EDC (which is a heck of a lot further than I have with Jobbers).
 
From what you say, and remembering how far you have come with him - I would keep going, try doing more with him and reassess at the end of the summer. If by then you still feel the same then go with one of your other options.
 
If you don't feel able to keep him then I would try and find a nice loan home - I can understand you not wanting him ridden, but more people are looking into inhand activities like agility (which can be competitive without leaving the field) and some people just like having horses to mollycoddle and spend time with rather than being bothered about riding. It might take a while, but you've not got much to lose by looking, and in the meantime you can keep working with him at home and see what happens. He sounds like a lovely boy!
 
tobiano1984 said:
ps - he NEVER spooks, never kicks, never pushes or shoves - if something frightens him he just shuts down, which I think is the result of a violent past. He just tries to make himself small and keeps his head down - it's really quite heartbreaking! You may think he's asleep in the corner of the stable until you look closer and his eyes are wide and he's breathing fast and shaking
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You could be describing our Dartmoor. She had an awful time in the hands of a very *strange* boy who thought it was funny to beat her, amongst other things. We had known her since she was 3 and when she came up for sale we could bear it no longer and did a 'stealth buy' as her owners wouldn't sell to us. Initially we kept her where we have our mares and where she lived both before boy owner, and, for a time, with him. It soon became apparent that the place had too many associations for her and we moved her to live with our two big boys.

It took several years.. she was known as the uncatchable pony but we never had any problem with that and even our farrier could jump over the fence and catch and trim her. But she used to shut down and hide as you describe and her mouth wuld be all tight and hard. She never kicked, never spooked but was unbearably sad. Slowly, slowly she started to come out of it and then my Grandson was born. She met him as a tiny baby and she adored him on sight. He is now 4 and can do anything with her, he has been catching her since before his 3rd birthday and she is sooo patient with this child who takes umpteen attempts to put on a headcollar and she strolls along with him never pulling or towing him. Last year, to her utter horror, daughter saw G'son hit her in the face and ran over... before she got there he did it again and this time shouted 'Get OFF my pony' Bless him he was smacking the flies off her and she never flinched or even turned away.

So, what I am saying is be patient. It takes a long time to get a horse into this state and an even longer one to then mend the damage. Be calm, be consistent, be patient. Work with the horse you have today, not the awful problems you know about. Be a leader to him and a person he can trust. Don't back off situations, but, at the same time don't force him into them. Go to the edge of his comfort zone and let him watch and learn with you beside him. I totally recommend Ben Hart : http://www.hartshorsemanship.com/ and to use his shaping plans. I don't often recommend a trainer but I can vouch for Ben and his unique knowledge and approach.

You WILL get there if you persevere, but you have to be totally dedicated to it and, as I sad before, consistent in your dealings with him.
 
Although my pony isn't quite the same he can't cope with too much pressure being put on him to conform to being anything more than living out 24/7 with me handling him and the odd visits by vet or farrier.

This is the life he loves and this is what I can give him, he's come on a huge amount but there is still that side to him where he will go on the defensive.

I think your boy is telling you he can't cope mentally, ideally I guess you could try him living out in a herd and seeing if he settles without the pressure he feels from humans.

You've obviously done an amazing job with him xx
 
Tobiano, you sound as though after three years you are tired of having to deal with his problems. If this is true, then I don't blame you one little bit. I have a fragile-minded Irish horse who fears life as well. Some days over the last three years I'd willingly have turned him into burgers.

Your boy doesn't sound like it would be fair to loan him or to sell him to me. It sounds as if you are likely to be his anchor onto sanity.

From the extreme reactions you describe I would be looking to retire him, and if you can't do that then I would consider relieving him of his extreme fear of an inconsistent world and putting him to sleep. If I have misunderstood how bad he is and this is not an appropriate suggestion, please forgive me.
 
What about the competing, training etc is it that makes you feel like he doesn't enjoy it? Or is it just the environment of your yard that makes you want to find somewhere alternative for him to live?

You sound like you've worked wonders with him and done a truly wonderful thing in taking him on and keeping him. There is nothing really to say that he will have less of these upsetting trauma episodes in retirement livery or in another home.
 
I too have a rescue horse who was very severely beaten as a young horse, somebody also hacked off his tail (through the bone), he only has 3 inches of dock, before he was gifted to me (by the lady who rescued him, in Spain); he also shuts down and is/was frightened of everything. I honestly think this horse's heart was broken and never expected to be able to do anything with him at all, BUT after 6 years of slowly, slowly working with him he is a different horse. He'll never be the horse he could have been, and I don't think anyone else will ever ride him, but he is now happy and working as part of our demo team and confident out in public. I can even tap him with a whip, but he still can't take anyone on the ground holding one.

He's a special horse, worth all of the time and attention I've given him, and I'd do it all again, but he will stay here until his dying day. He's over there <<< in my avatar.
 
you could totally be describing my horse. He came to me with no trust or like of people what so ever and was defence aggressive. If anyone tried to go near him he would literally attempt to pick them up with his teeth or if they got into the stable with him he'd corner them and attempt to kick out at them. It took him 6 months to realise that not everyone was going to hurt him and probably a further 6 years or so for him to really settle and become more relaxed about life. I'd say 3 years really is not that long in the eyes of a traumatised horse. Like you I had brought mine to bring on and sell but no way could i ensure his future being safe nor the safety of others who handled him. It's really only in the last year or 2 that he's become happy to be handled by others and even then it's only so long as im around that he's really relaxed to allow them to handle him. He'd always been brilliant around kids and other horses and also has numerous scars as a result of his past. I've owned him nearly 9 years now and he is with me for life as would not be fair to him to attempt to pass him on to someone else. Yes someone else probably could manage his quirks and nerves but I know that he falls apart too easily when he's unsure and because he's so sensitive and unpredictable it's highly unlikely he'd find another permanent home that would love him with his quirks. I seriously would consider the fact of continuing with what he's happy with and give him more time. Up til about 2 or 3 yrs ago mine would occassionally still bolt when being led and kick out at the handler as he went when he felt threatened by things happening around us.
 
Nothing helpful to add but this horse is so lucky it was you he ended up with whatever you do.
 
He's breaking my heart and I've not even met him, poor boy. He was very lucky indeed to find you and you really have done so well with him. I don't know what you should do, it sounds like he needs a quiet life with routine and few or no surprises- not always easy to come by. WIshing you both the very best x
 
Poor horse and how wonderful of you to be the one to give him a chance

To me it sounds like he needs somewhere to relax. Change obviously upsets him greatly, and I can see him being very happy in a place that has maybe just him and another blob of a horse in the middle of nowhere living a "natural" life with someone who is just as calm and relaxed as he is but also a confident enough handler/rider to handle him. He might just not be suited to so much "drama" in life with a busyish yard and shows etc.
 
I think you have done amazingly well with him.
I'd be tempted to give him a trial on a gentle analgesic, boswellia or devil's claw, as you say he's a bit clicky. Could be chronic low level pain. Then I would start clicker training to build his confidence in facing scary situations, starting with very low pressure ones.
He's lucky he landed with you. Good luck.
 
Ladyinred said:
I totally recommend Ben Hart : http://www.hartshorsemanship.com/ and to use his shaping plans. I don't often recommend a trainer but I can vouch for Ben and his unique knowledge and approach.

QUOTE]

^^^^
This, absolutely. I have encountered quite a few trainers, I've yet to meet any but Ben that I would trust with a horse of mine. He was an enormous help to me with a horse that had had a difficult time and was very shut down. Happy to give you more info if you want to PM.
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Wow it sounds like you've done amazingly well with him. I would second Ben Hart/clicker for a horse like this - I've found it amazingly useful with trauma ponies - but I don't think that's totally what you're asking, it sounds more like you're not sure if his current yard set up is ok long term....? I guess it depends what YOU want/have time for/can afford to some degree. It sounds like a quiet yard set up would suit him much better and be more calming for him, so I guess the companion/retirement livery options do sound quite appealing, if you can't have him in a quieter living space as he is. Personally I think I'd be tempted look for a young horse companion home as it sounds like he'd be lovely for that and you're in no rush - but if he does enjoy his work there's no reason to rush into it.

Is there any way you can make his current living situation more 'stable' (pun unintended!!!) - i.e. bringing him in earlier/later when fewer people around, routine, etc?? generally I reckon the most important thing is that you understand and allow for his troubled phases, which it sounds like you're doing. I do agree with others that three years is a relatively short time overall for serious trauma, and you've both come an incredibly long way with this already. He sounds amazing.
 
We once had an arab x that had many emotional issues, we think she too had been beaten and she was terrified of being tied up. She once took down about 30 foot of fencing when her previous owner tried to tie her to it and leave her. It took years and I mean at least 10 years for her trust anyone. She was never able to be tied up even though we bought her when she was 10 and had her until she died at 36. She improved so much when we moved from livery to our own place where by she was only handled by us and there was no coming and going all the time. She never got over her issues completely but was happy and healthy to the end.
 
Thanks everyone for your input, some have suggested having him PTS if he can't cope - it DEFINITELY isn't that bad, it is something I would consider if I couldn't keep him for some reason (for his own good), but definitely not an option at this stage. It's really helpful to hear from people with similar horses, who say he needs longer due to his past traumas. This is helpful as I wondered if it just was never going to work but maybe he just needs more time. I think for now I will perservere, once I sell my young warmblood I'll have more time to spend on him. Since writing the post, a few things have happened for the better -

1. Today the farrier came for one of my liveries, EDC was wary when he walked into the barn, but proceeded to eat his breakfast with only occasional looks over the door at the farrier. Bit worried by the smoke but he got on with his morning anyway so this is progress from before. And was fine to ride.

2. I popped him over some jumps this morning, just little ones, and he was very relaxed which gives me hope.

3. My liveries have commented on how much happier he seems recently since a)moving stable and b) seeing his Reiki lady. Apparently he's been mugging for treats and leaning over the door which is all quite new and brave for him.

I think I gave the impression the yard was busy - it really isn't, only 13 horses, 9 quiet grown ups, most are barefoot so the farrier only comes every few weeks. Non-horsey OH thinks he needs to go out to some arena hires/shows to give him some 'purpose' - annoyingly he is nearly always right so will give this a go (was his idea to move stables).

Anyway, thanks for all the thoughts and input - it has spurred me on to persevere with this strange but lovely chap!
 
non horsey OH could be on to something IMO, go at the horse's pace obv but it sounds like he is ready for some non-threatening comfort zone stretching. Good luck :)
 
milliepops said:
non horsey OH could be on to something IMO, go at the horse's pace obv but it sounds like he is ready for some non-threatening comfort zone stretching. Good luck :)
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It goes against common sense to some degree, but I do remember when my old groom was riding him he would start getting tricky at home and then go to a show and be much happier afterwards. I don't really understand why, I would assume something nervous wouldn't like go out and about! Fickle :-)
 
tobiano1984 said:
It goes against common sense to some degree, but I do remember when my old groom was riding him he would start getting tricky at home and then go to a show and be much happier afterwards. I don't really understand why, I would assume something nervous wouldn't like go out and about! Fickle :-)
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I think that reaction after a show is because they've "survived" and have just a bit more trust in you after it. The more things you can do together that build that sort of reaction, the better. Don't give up - I've thought about it many times with my poor chap, but he has come right and continues to improve even after all these years.
 
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