EMS - how do you cope psychologically with all the restrictions?

[Boulty]

I’d say look into making a track as a long term option. If you can’t afford to surface the whole thing you could maybe start with having a few hard standing islands maybe where you have the feeders or just on the wettest bits? (There’s quite a few different mud mat options available as well as traditional hardstanding)

Potentially you could have rest of herd on it initially to kill the grass (this works best if you start giving access before grass has taken hold / whilst it’s still a bit muddy but obv if you’re on clay whilst it’s not TOO bog like!) and then add in her and the Shettie (who could probs live on there full time). The ideal would be to maintain at least some track time through winter for the movement but as you say you might have to fully surface to achieve this if where you are doesn’t drain well… oooor a mud mat path all the way around?)

I don’t think PTS is a wrong thing to consider either with that combination of conditions if you’re struggling to get on top of them but if you do really want to keep going with her I think a track of some sort is going to give you the best shot of an ok QOL for her, even if you have to rotate the rest of herd between that & your grass paddocks in spring/ summer.

 

[catembi]

H'mm, it's looking as if a track of some sort might be the way forward... The big expense is that it would HAVE to be fenced properly as the Shetland is the worst escape artist & doesn't care about electric fence, even mains. I was thinking about mud mats all the way round...I have about 200 atm but even a width of two wouldn't get me very far!

 

[Highmileagecob]

You are basically dealing with type 2 diabetes - eating too much too quickly and producing too much insulin as a result. Restricting food is not as successful as slowing down the rate at which they can eat, so encouraging trickle feeding and searching for food may be easier to manage than a hungry horse. If you can work out how much forage she should be consuming over 24 hours, and be inventive to stop her stuffing it down, the insulin should start to level out. Interestingly, my borderline EMS cob had an Equibiome test last winter (dental issues, wasn't sure if feeding routine was enough) and was recommended to get more diversity into his diet. He is largely fed forage replacers and soaked chop now with a net of soft haylage just in case, and has never looked better. No coughing (COPD for over 10 years) and no thrush either, even after a winter turned out on mud.

 

[paddy555]

You are basically dealing with type 2 diabetes - eating too much too quickly and producing too much insulin as a result. Restricting food is not as successful as slowing down the rate at which they can eat, so encouraging trickle feeding and searching for food may be easier to manage than a hungry horse. If you can work out how much forage she should be consuming over 24 hours, and be inventive to stop her stuffing it down, the insulin should start to level out. Interestingly, my borderline EMS cob had an Equibiome test last winter (dental issues, wasn't sure if feeding routine was enough) and was recommended to get more diversity into his diet. He is largely fed forage replacers and soaked chop now with a net of soft haylage just in case, and has never looked better. No coughing (COPD for over 10 years) and no thrush either, even after a winter turned out on mud.

I would be interested to know more about how you feed him, which forage replacer, quantities, how often etc.

 

[Goldenstar]

I feed top chop zero a partial haylege replacer, it took me a long while to get them eating it, we now have a system that works .
We have had no ill effects. I was worried about impaction and start give them on bran in icy weather I also monitor the water intake carefully .

 

[ycbm]

My EMS suspect mare would have eaten a whole sack of Top Chop Zero in one sitting. The only thing that she would pick at slowly was plain chopped straw.
.

 

[santas_spotty_pony]

interesting to here about the PSSM as one of mine gets stiff when in. Is she lame when she first comes out?

 

[catembi]

Not sure if you're talking to me...? My Dartmoor has type 2 PSSM, variant p3. I had her stabled at night for a few weeks as she had to have haylage while the others were still on hay. She was very stiff & pottery in the mornings, to the extent that I was worried about lami, although she was pottery behind as well as in front. After the day spent turned out in her bit of yard, she was back to normal, trotting, chasing the Shetland etc. Then stiff again the next morning! She is currently out at night with the others as everyone is on haylage for now, & isn't stiff in the mornings.

 

[Goldenstar]

One of the downsides of straw is that’s its sprayed with glyphosate that’s bothers me about feeding it in large amounts.

 

[ycbm]

One of the downsides of straw is that’s its sprayed with glyphosate that’s bothers me about feeding it in large amounts.

I'd be surprised/annoyed if the bagged choped straw products sold for horses were sprayed with glyphosate.

 

[cauda equina]

One of the downsides of straw is that’s its sprayed with glyphosate that’s bothers me about feeding it in large amounts.

Me too, especially for laminitics as glyphosate is an endocrine disruptor

 

[Highmileagecob]

I would be interested to know more about how you feed him, which forage replacer, quantities, how often etc.

Firstly, I hold my hand up and say that I am not a nutritional expert, but this is working for my cob.
Last summer he needed to have teeth extracted, and dentist advised moving him on to OAP diet. Up to that point he had big bale haylage double netted, split into three nets dotted around the stable. Now he has three quarters of a 40l trug bucket of damp grass chaff mixed with soaked sugar beet an hour before he goes out. In the evening, a bucket feed of double handful of Pink Mash put to soak, and dried off with a double handful of bran and his balancer, two further buckets of the sugar beet mix, two buckets loosely filled with Silvermoor Veteran chopped haylage and two pony nets of Silvermoor Lite haylage - soft haylage from a second cut that he can chew.
A full stubbs scoop of sugar beet is left soaking overnight, and the following day five scoops of Graze On in each of three bucket has a third of the beet mixed through it. I cannot now stop him from stuffing himself, but he seems happy to pick and mix from the selection.

 

[CobsaGooden]

I think this is really tricky. If it were my pony, I wouldn’t want them to have such a restricted life and suffer for no other reason than being loved. I think I’d pts. Some have said similar but at the first sign of lami. That seems unfair. I think I’d want the pony to have a few days of no restrictions and then pts before it suffers.

I’m so sorry OP. It’s such a rubbish situation for such a young and much loved pony. I hope you manage to find what work for you both.

 

[Goldenstar]

I'd be surprised/annoyed if the bagged choped straw products sold for horses were sprayed with glyphosate.

Well of course it is ,almost all oats are sprayed with glyphosate .
The only oats not sprayed will be on organic farms and that straw goes straight back into the organic meat producing animals as bedding and fodder .

 

[cauda equina]

It's such a difficult position - the sort of life we would like our animals to have v the sort of life they are able to have

I had a horse who retired due to navicular syndrome and subsequently developed Cushings
He was an extremely good doer and I struggled with his weight for years. He spent loads of time in solitary confinement which I hated but he coped with pretty well.
Eventually I chucked him out with his mates, on a track, in a muzzle, as a last ditch attempt at some sort of normal life.
Within 2 weeks he'd got laminitis and was pts straight away.

I think he coped with his restricted life much better than I did and I still wonder if I did the right thing
It's easy to say pts when it's someone else's animal, so much harder when it's your own
I hope you can find a satisfactory solution for your pony

 

[paddy555]

Firstly, I hold my hand up and say that I am not a nutritional expert, but this is working for my cob.
Last summer he needed to have teeth extracted, and dentist advised moving him on to OAP diet. Up to that point he had big bale haylage double netted, split into three nets dotted around the stable. Now he has three quarters of a 40l trug bucket of damp grass chaff mixed with soaked sugar beet an hour before he goes out. In the evening, a bucket feed of double handful of Pink Mash put to soak, and dried off with a double handful of bran and his balancer, two further buckets of the sugar beet mix, two buckets loosely filled with Silvermoor Veteran chopped haylage and two pony nets of Silvermoor Lite haylage - soft haylage from a second cut that he can chew.
A full stubbs scoop of sugar beet is left soaking overnight, and the following day five scoops of Graze On in each of three bucket has a third of the beet mixed through it. I cannot now stop him from stuffing himself, but he seems happy to pick and mix from the selection.

thanks for that. I have just started taking one fat older one off hay onto haylage with a bin of s/b and chaff (to supplement it overnight) and I'm surprised how well it is working for that particular horse.

Off to explore silvermoor chopped haylage for my 40yo toothless wonder as well. Didn't know chopped haylage existed.

 

[Goldenstar]

The silvermoor chopped haylage is great product .

I have all mine on Timothy and fescue haylage ( less palatable than straight Timothy so they eat it slower ) and chopped straw i do worry about the chemicals that will be present on the straw but needs must with Fatties .
They don’t get anything near add Lib haylage .

 

[Goldenstar]

It's such a difficult position - the sort of life we would like our animals to have v the sort of life they are able to have

I had a horse who retired due to navicular syndrome and subsequently developed Cushings
He was an extremely good doer and I struggled with his weight for years. He spent loads of time in solitary confinement which I hated but he coped with pretty well.
Eventually I chucked him out with his mates, on a track, in a muzzle, as a last ditch attempt at some sort of normal life.
Within 2 weeks he'd got laminitis and was pts straight away.

I think he coped with his restricted life much better than I did and I still wonder if I did the right thing
It's easy to say pts when it's someone else's animal, so much harder when it's your own
I hope you can find a satisfactory solution for your pony

It’s very hard , Fatty had his retirement with the others he was turned out with them and in when they where in he was so so so happy I was tough on his diet in winter he got over five years like this .
He foundered in summer I saw the symptoms when I got him out the stable at nine in the evening put him in his favorite stable gave him bute kept his mates in with him called the kennels and vet and he gone by mid morning .
For him he had endured a lot of being in a small bare area when he was working he loved being with others he had a good retirement , he was happy and funny right up to when the vet sedated him .

 

[Highmileagecob]

My lad had to live in a grazing muzzle 24/7 (Tough1 Easy Breathe) and be exercised daily whatever the weather. Now he is dentally challenged, the muzzle isn't an option - but the herd has doubled in size so grazing is poor. If you cannot exercise to keep the insulin low, then it is double difficult to manage. Is there any relationship between insulin imbalance and PSSM?

 

[maya2008]

Me too, especially for laminitics as glyphosate is an endocrine disruptor

My Shetland can either eat mostly straw, or be laminitic and ultimately dead. So glyphosate or no glyphosate she’ll be eating that straw because it keeps her happy, sound and able to enjoy life!

We tried soaked hay first, then low sugar bagged haylage, then gave up and went for 70% straw 30% haylage. Sometimes, whatever works is what you have to do!

 

[PurBee]

I'd be surprised/annoyed if the bagged choped straw products sold for horses were sprayed with glyphosate.

I emailed TopChop a while ago about this, asking if it’s tested for glyphosate ppm values (as there’s laws about this and most dont comply!), and they were evasive to answer that question directly basically saying ‘if you want straw guaranteed to be glyphosate-free, you should not use our products’

The issues with glyphosate for feed/soil/plant health are numerous, but the main issue as food laced with it, for ALL mammals, is that it affects the gut biome, and kills off bacteria which are key for multiple functions, having down-stream effects on endocrine function primarily, as Cauda equina stated.

It makes sense, why the equine community are finding use from pre and probiotics when our horses seem to get ‘gutsy’ so easily. We’re replacing the bacteria numbers that are accumulatively being killed-off from ingestion of glyphosate and other agri sprays that disrupt the gut.
I’ve stopped all bagged feeds due to soy hulls being common in ‘non-heating’ horse feeds. The soy hulls are the outside fibre tough shells of the soy beans which directly receive and absorb the widely well-known use of glyphosate in the soy industry.
The beans would be safer to feed, but not the hulls!

Packaged grains for humans have recently been tested at higher ppm levels of glyphosate than laws dictate. The big brand name oats/flour.
Farmers are only paid for their crops when they meet a certain very specific % of moisture of their grain crop. 1% over and they get paid less for it to be used as animal feed, instead of human flour/food. So they are inclined to douse with ‘sunshine in a can’ at dosages on the field more concentrated than directed if harvest weather situations that year are damp/rainy. Their livelihood depends on getting their £ per tonne. They have no idea glyphosate destroys health in the way it does. Like most, they believe if it was really bad, it wouldnt be sold. Despite the skull and crossbones on the product and the health warnings stating otherwise, and farm workers compensation lawsuits globally due to it.
The very sad aspect is many large farmers are governmentally tied-in to have to use certain seeds/agri sprays, and get no choice about how they farm commercially, as their government appointed agronomist directs and manages the farm for them.

Humans and animals endocrine issues are very similarly on a sharp curve increase since the globalisation of glyphosate as standard farming practice. It’s primary uses are to kill-off native plants/weeds on lands wanted for grazing or crops, aswell as a crop-drying spray just before grains are harvested. Many farmers (on forums) dub it ‘sunshine in a can’ for its drying crop capacity.
Organic horticulture/forage/grain farms cannot, by law, use glyphosate.

I’ve searched high and low, east and west europe for good organic hay, and failed. Its fed mainly to organic meat industry animals as goldenstar said, so that commercial sector swallows up the @10% supply most EU countries produce.
The only source is from a local known farmer nearby, if you can find one via local adverts Etc - they tend not to advertise widely, and need scouting-out via word of mouth for you to have their small amount of spare bales.
Or rent land to be harvested for the horses hay, pay hay making contractors, so you know its organic.

Organic forage is a huge gap in the market that needs serious attention.
I’ve tried so hard to source it EU-wide and have failed. Even paying 500-1000 a tonne. Shipping from the USA was too expensive. I make my own what i can but i cant make all i need, because wild deer graze my land. I have the land but not the growth due to deer. Adequate deer fencing would cost me the cost of buying decent acreage in a decent climate, where no deer graze - soooo im gonna do that! I never thought i’d be forced to go to such extremes to source/grow decent forage for horses. (There’s other aspects factored in why buying elsewhere would be more beneficial too)

Many farmers think organic means the crop just hasnt received fertiliser! They’ll use glyphosate/herbicides and call their hay organic! It amazes me the ignorance within the farming community what organic actually means. One local farmer replied to my local wanted organic hay advert - when with him viewing his terrible heating mouldy hay, i asked if it received ANY agri sprays, and he said “oh no, just the weed lick for the rushes” (pointing to his weed-licker sitting in his yard) - i.e glyphosate filled roller that coats the rushes to kill them off and dry them, before the grass heads and the whole lot gets harvested as hay.


So we have to ‘interrogate’ farmers diligently when sourcing their ‘organic’ hay!

If i had a serious endocrine compromised equine i’d try hard to source organic straw, and would also try to find organic hay but if not, i’d use just hay, and not straw, as glyphosate has more side-effects than the herbicides used by the average large hay producer. Its about lessening the dose they get, if we cant eradicate their exposure to consuming it completely.

 

[cauda equina]

Pesticide legislation in the UK is a joke, as evinced by the approval of neonics for 'emergency' use on sugar beet for the fourth year in a row

 

[suestowford]

I've got a Cushings pony here whose diet has to be restricted. For years we have managed this by having him spend his days in the yard, and going out at night onto a section of fairly bare field. But now he is also arthritic, so I don't like to shut him in all day as he doesn't move around and gets really stiff. He's got a new friend now, also arthritic, so I have been keeping them out together 24/7 on a small patch of field Spring to Autumn, and he hasn't really gained a lot of weight. They spend a fair amount of time asleep but the rest of the time they are moving each other about, so having more exercise.
It's a compromise that may shorten his life but at least he will enjoy the time he has left. I talked it over with out vet & the farrier, first.

If you can get timothy haylage that's usually really low on sugar.