End of tether - Advice needed

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Benjamin

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I am need of a bit of advice about Rudy.

Firstly can I just say that his saddle has been made for him, and has been checked every 6 six week since I have had it, last adjustment being last Thursday, he has regular back treatments and his teeth are fine and up to date.

Rudy is an 8 yo KWPN Selle Francais.....
I bought him from a dealer last March. He was vetted, passed with flying colours, I had someone very experienced and trustworthy with me when I bought him.

He settled in well. I had some lessons, took him to a few shows etc...I fell in love.
On one occasion at a unaff SJ, he started bucking. Violently so. He didn't get me off, but it was so out of the blue and violent, I thought he must be in pain somewhere. From then on, he got a new saddle and has had regular treatments from the back lady.
On a few occasions after that, he has bucked, but they have been very minor, nothing to worry about type affairs. Until the day he got me off at a dressage comp. He had been a bit lazy in the test. I took him back to the box, I had a tea, got back on and warmed up for 2nd test. He took a dislike to me asking him to do something and he got me off in the warm up. Violent, 3 in a row bucks which start at the front, and finish with a real flick....
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Got back on, and he did this again in the test.
Took him home, worrying there was something wrong, he was fine. A freind of mine got on him, he bucked with her, but didn't manage to get her off. She was quite insensed by this, she gave him a wallop when he stopped, and he started again, this time getting her off. So off she went, round the feilds, making him go forward. This was a turning point for me
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I was no longer worried about asking him to go forward. So we spent many hours hacking, jumping logs and ditches, going out to local shows, having lessons, I was REALLY really enjoying him. He had a buck or two in my lessons and at the shows, but all were very minor, and I just put it down to temper....generally happened when he was a little tired and I was asking him to do something (he is a red head after all
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).

So, I come to Sunday 15th. I went to a very local show. It was pretty hideous. Chavvy kids flying around on overdressed ponies, having no regard for anyone else, but I thought we would go and have a bit of fun
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I did the intermediate class....about 85cm, and he was like a pro. What he gave me was everything I had wanted from a horse. I was soaring!
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Had I got the correct JO course, we would have been placed....but that is neither here nor there.

I went and got a coffee after putting him back on the trailer (was raining at the time) and waited for the next class to finish before going to jump the small open. (90cm). I get him out, walk, trot, canter, all okay. Pop a little X, all okay, go to jump the bigger warm up, and he ducks out because I got him wrong, no worries, just canter round and try again.
This is the point where he went mental with me. This 3 in a row bucking, move, 3 in a row again, move.....Paula hits the deck with a large THUD - winded and incredibly sore.
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I get back on, he gets me off in about 10 minutes, I get back on, take him down the lane, starts bucking again, take him back into the warm up, I am off again. I get back on, and this time I am led back to the trailer, and I get off.
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Trip to A&E, week off work, and physio.
I get back on him on Saturday. Go for a nice hack, a lovely gallop round the feilds. Cue Paula feeling positive again.
Sunday - went to go for a hack again, get about 20 mins away from home, have a trot, he goe forward into canter and he starts this bucking (3 in a row
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) I am so shocked, I can't move!
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Eventually I get him home, after trying for canter again, just started bucking...
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Popped him on the lunge to see if he is lame, or looks sore or stiff....nothing.
Back lady is booked in for Monday to check him over.

The pattern (until Sunday) had been that he would get like this on the 2nd try of something.
Is he in pain?
Is this just temper?
Is he sour/p*ssed off at something?
Do I sell him?
Have him shot?
Get the vet to him?

I am really in such a muddle about this. I am now at a point where I SHOULD get on, but I have no inclination to....I don't even really want to look at him
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Apologies for the essay.
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I am no use at this stuff but get vet out???
Just posted to say I felt so sorry for you and I think you are so brave (or mad
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) hope it gets sorted for you.
 
my old pony did this if I asked him to do something when was tired. In the end I had a very briliant friend of mine ride him for me and he was grand. Bucked himself inside out and she didnt come off...was seriously like a rodeo. Then she walloped him and i mean walloped him! he seemed to get the message..and after that only bucked every so often. However a month later he started again!! so did the usual get eveything check..and nothing was wrong in the end he just stopped - no idea why or how he just did.. it seemed to be a phrase for abuot 6 months! good luck

sorry im not much help..
 
Oh dear. Firstly, well done you for all your perservience! There's no way I would have been THAT determined to stay on!!
I know you say you have had a Back Person out, but would that be the same as having a Chiropactor out? Excuss my ignorance, but are they the same? Might be something in his neck or quaters that are causing discomfort when ridden, rather than the back where the saddle goes?
I would get a vet out straight away my self, and explain everything that has been happening, even down to the last detail and see what he suggests.
What feed is he on? Even though you may not have changed it, it may not agree with him now. I know lots of people who hated something as a child but then loved as an adult, if you see what I mean?
 
I think it is always best to rule out pain before assuming it is naughtiness. You say you have a back lady but is she qualified? I would definately get him looked at by a specialist equine vet, preferably at a centre where they have the facilities to do a thorogh examination. They need to see the horse saddled and ridden too, not just in hand.
If the vet doesnt find anything then you can progress with the behavioral problem theory. You need to keep a diary and make notes on when he does what to try and find a pattern. You should seek professional help and advice from a behaviourist and/or very experienced instructor.
This is dangerous. I personally dont think you should ride him until he is looked at by a vet. You can buy another horse but you cant buy another you.
 
I would say if his teeth are fine, and his back is fine, and if you have a second opinion from the vet that he isn't in pain, he needs to go as a companion or something.
I know that sounds extreme, but keeping riding him is going to seriously injure you/others and/or knock your confidence a lot.
 
It's so hard to know if he is a naughty horse taking the piss, or a really genuine horse doing his best and sometimes being overwhelmed by pain. If it was me, I would certainly get the vet to him. Have you had his teeth checked recently? I think you have been very brave and persevered with him, but there doesn't seem to be a pattern to his behaviour and it must be very distressing. Get anything medical ruled out, then look at behavioural issues. Hugs to you.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I am no use at this stuff but get vet out???
Just posted to say I felt so sorry for you and I think you are so brave (or mad
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) hope it gets sorted for you.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thank you
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Thing is, he is (was) such a sweet horse in every way....I feel quite attached to him now
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Oh Lord you poor thing, as you have checked everything over, it does sound more like a temper tantrum to me (Sirena has these - pure temper), what did the old owner tell you?

PS: I don't blame you for not even wanting to look at him, I would be exactly the same
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The first thing that springs to mind from your description is kissing spines. I would be inclined to discuss this behaviour with your vet. It might mean that you will need x-rays or scans etc. to determine kissing spines (or whatever else the cause might be) but if there is nothing obviously visible or palpable, then it's really the only way to go - because you're unlikely to get to the bottom of it otherwise.

I would also be interested to hear what the back lady has to say. She may well pick up on something important.

Good luck.
 
[ QUOTE ]
my old pony did this if I asked him to do something when was tired. In the end I had a very briliant friend of mine ride him for me and he was grand. Bucked himself inside out and she didnt come off...was seriously like a rodeo. Then she walloped him and i mean walloped him! he seemed to get the message..and after that only bucked every so often. However a month later he started again!! so did the usual get eveything check..and nothing was wrong in the end he just stopped - no idea why or how he just did.. it seemed to be a phrase for abuot 6 months! good luck

sorry im not much help..

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Thanks sweetie, glad I am not alone...
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When he had his back checked did she find anything in particular?

Pain can't be ruled out but the only thing you can do to know for sure is to get a vet to check him over completely and possibly do a "bute test" (bute him for a few weeks and see if his behaviour improves).

But possible physical problems aside, I'd say the bucking is his way of expressing himself when he feels pressured or unsure, and you are going to have to teach him not to do it. Do you do much ground work with him? I'd take this horse back to basics- long lining and double lunging to begin with, concentrating on forward and obedience. If you have someone who is willing to ride him, then get him out and going forward, forget about schooling and jumping for the time being, just forge some ground rules.

Finally, chin up! You'll get through this and hopefully have a lovely horse at the end of the process
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.
 
Is there somewhere/somebody you could send him to for a set amount of time to get a second opinion? At least he would have a little time to settle in and start his behavior (hopefully) with someone new to get their advice. Maybe an all-over from a second physio type person or a vet that you have trust in would be a good idea. But that can also depend on how much money you want or can pump into him.

Failing that, you sell him to a dealer and turn your back on him and his problems and let somebody else deal with it. Or, like you say, have him PTS.
Sorry if that sounds harsh, it's not meant to be but I can't think of a different way to put it.
 
I would rule out the physical stuff. Get a vet to do a lameness work up on him and see him moving on the lunge etc and check teetch. Who is your saddler? maybe a second opinion is needed there, especially if they are tweaking the saddle every 6 weeks - unless he was a remedial fit that is far too often.

Do you have an instructor? What do they think? They will be able to see what he is like when different types of pressure are put on him so can give you an idea if it is something you are asking which is causing this or if he is just having a tantrum.
 
Oh P - poor you xxxx

My old horse had a change of temprament at about 9yrs old - and bucked every time I hit him - started napping (Rearing - refusing to move forward) once he even napped on a XC course well between fences... With him it was all about testing the boundaries - and actually we worked through it. Although he did go over backwards on the road once
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Not saying is the same - but I know how terrible I felt about it all... and how I never wanted to ride him - sapped all of my confidence.

You are doing the right stuff in terms of getting him checked out physically - would also agree about getting vet to him - so you can rule out physical probs.

If is behavioural I think you have to be realistic and consider that he may not be the horse for you.

One other option - would be to turn him away - give him a break - and bring him back in a couple of months - see if the probs are still there? Not ideal tho
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Have some hugs tho - you need them xx
 
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Oh Lord you poor thing, as you have checked everything over, it does sound more like a temper tantrum to me (Sirena has these - pure temper), what did the old owner tell you?

PS: I don't blame you for not even wanting to look at him, I would be exactly the same
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Thank you sweets
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I love him but hate him too...
 
[ QUOTE ]
The first thing that springs to mind from your description is kissing spines. I would be inclined to discuss this behaviour with your vet. It might mean that you will need x-rays or scans etc. to determine kissing spines (or whatever else the cause might be) but if there is nothing obviously visible or palpable, then it's really the only way to go - because you're unlikely to get to the bottom of it otherwise.

I would also be interested to hear what the back lady has to say. She may well pick up on something important.

Good luck.

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First thing back lady 'bandied' around when she first saw him (after first bucking sesh) was KS
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Bugger
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I would get a full vet work up too, to rule out pain, and yes, I would be looking at his spine. (((hugs))) No way I would have got back on after being thrown twice BTW, so kudos to you!
 
This is probably not related but our KWPN bucked repeatedly until my daughter came off, this was totally uncharacteristic of her so we knew something was wrong - she had heel pain caused by low heel and inbalance and once sorted hasn't bucked since.
 
First thing that popped into my head was kissing spines but then from what you've said the bucking occured when you were asking him to work again (going in to do a 2nd test and 2nd jumping class) it's sounding like a temper tantrum.

Out of interest what did the previous owner say?

If he were my horse I'd get him to my vet for a full work-up in order to rule out pain. Once thats been ruled out I'dget somebody with an arse like glue to sort him out.

Good luck with it all and let us know how you get on
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Ditto what others have said, rule out pain first and foremost with vet, back person, teeth & tack checks.

From the sound of it he mainly does it when show jumping? so maybe he's either got something thats ok until it gets tweaked when jumping, or he is just P'd off with that type of work.

God lukc with getting to the bottom of it
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I have three thoughts. Assuming teeth and saddle are OK.

1. My first horse now 30 bucked everyone off at his yard. I bought him because they would not let me ride him BUT he hated being stabled in the winter - in summer he was a different horse. After I bought him he stopped bucking.....secret lots of turn-out and a good warm rug and keeping weight on him. I have owned him for 15 years and loooove him to bits.

2. I saw a TV problem with Robert Maxwell - the bucking horse had a trapped nerve in the shoulder all it needed was manipulation. I have a mare who was intermitendly lame last year - vet could find nothing wrong - I thought she had a shoulder injury and with difficulty found an osteopath. After a bit of physio she is as right as can be.

3. If you are convinced horse is OK buy or borrow Monty Roberts 'From My hands to Yours' he has a great technique for a bucking horse.
 
i am not sure if you have been following the Kenneth and me!!
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story on FB but we are going through very simular thing
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and i have just had to make a very upsetting decision (NOT PTS - dont worry!) - have messaged you on FB if you want to compare notes !!!!
 
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