End of tether - Advice needed

Thanks SK
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Previous owner didn't say anything at first. I probed further after the time at the dressage and she told me that yes, she had had this problem too, but not the reason why he was sold etc.....and that she had had him checked out and nothing was found. Put it down to quirkyness...
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if it is not KS and you want to persist could it be he's just very sour and his way of saying he's had enough for the time being?? maybe if all physical ruled out, you could turn him away for the summer to chill out and take the pressure of, both of you??
 
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From the sound of it he mainly does it when show jumping? so maybe he's either got something thats ok until it gets tweaked when jumping, or he is just P'd off with that type of work.

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Maybe....It is something to bear in mind, although he did do this at the dressage...
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1. My first horse now 30 bucked everyone off at his yard. I bought him because they would not let me ride him BUT he hated being stabled in the winter - in summer he was a different horse. After I bought him he stopped bucking.....secret lots of turn-out and a good warm rug and keeping weight on him. I have owned him for 15 years and loooove him to bits.

2. I saw a TV problem with Robert Maxwell - the bucking horse had a trapped nerve in the shoulder all it needed was manipulation. I have a mare who was intermitendly lame last year - vet could find nothing wrong - I thought she had a shoulder injury and with difficulty found an osteopath. After a bit of physio she is as right as can be.

3. If you are convinced horse is OK buy or borrow Monty Roberts 'From My hands to Yours' he has a great technique for a bucking horse.

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Thank you for your input.
I am really starting to think that I shall make an app with the vet...
 
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i am not sure if you have been following the Kenneth and me!!
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story on FB but we are going through very simular thing
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and i have just had to make a very upsetting decision (NOT PTS - dont worry!) - have messaged you on FB if you want to compare notes !!!!

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I haven't
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I shall go have a looky in a mo.
 
Sounds psychological to me, sorry. I've had a number of Trakehners and KWPNs which I had imported from Germany. Pretty much all of them arrived with mental issues. I rehabbed a number of them but they would never be classed as easy rides. Some never made it and so ended up as broodmares. All had lovely conformation, all were checked out for any physical issues; rarely did anything come to light.

The biggest issue I have seen with these horses which dealers import to the UK, is that they live such a completely different life in Holland, Belgium and Germany, that the transition to how we keep them in the UK is too alien for some of them to ever come to terms with. Yes very often these horses have physical problems; backs or trapped nerves etc. but this was not my experience of them - they were simply blown out!

If I was looking for a horse for myself and I wanted a WB of any description, I'd buy it unbroken, directly from the stud.

I hope you manage to get to the bottom of it - sounds like you have done a lot and all credit to you. Not sure I could be bothered with a horse like this these days - I gave all that nonsense up when I moved here and found QHs
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Benjamin what has J said? Has she seen him do it?

Like others I would definitely look into kissing spines.

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She hasn't seen him do the violent ones, but the general bucking she just thinks is temper!
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I can see why temper could be used as an excuse. However it seems like you do a variety of work with him, so if it affecting everything then surely there could be an underlying reason for the temper.
But then I am an over-analyzer!!
 
What is he like if you feed him a fibre only diet? Cut out sugar beet and swap alfa-a for hi-fi and add hi fibre cubes if he's a poor doer.

Maybe try and increase his turnout?

I've had 2 horses with similar issues and they were both much worse in winter - Nov-Apr normally involved lots of falls and bucking fits and then summers were (mostly) great.

Big hugs, you're brave to keep getting on - my nerves are shot to pieces now even though my current horse is very sensible and sane. I didn't fix either of my other horses, i avoided the situations i knew were likely flashpoints and so was very limited with what I did. I persevered for 7 yrs with one, but only a year with the other
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I really think you need to get a good vet out first - I have used practically every clinic in Essex and had 3 vets out to my boy before David Platt (recommended by Theresa_F) actually discovered what was wrong with him. The others all just said he was a git CB.

I think the first stage is ruling out a physical problem. If it is a training issue, then find a good trainer and go back to basics.

Agree with Tia though - I am looking for another horse but I am only going to get an unbroken youngster. I am done with trying to sort out ridden and physcial problems caused by bad riding/breaking.
 
You beat me to it, I was just about to post again, saying why not try David Platt - as you said he got to the bottom of your chap, and was also the one to get to the bottom of Fleur's problem - on his first visit said wasting time and money on hocks, it was the back, and he was right.

It was also him after he injected her back so she felt nothing that said to give her a few years out as a broodmare to forget being ridden as it was now her head that was the issue. She was such a happy mum and producing amazing foals, that I made the decision to leave her as a broodmare and call it quits with the riding.

Good luck with finding your youngster - having now done it, I do have to say it has been wonderful bringing on Stinky Boy.
 
What about ulcers? Since this seems to be related to being out at shows which increases stress levels and can cause them to flare up and cause pain?
Just a thought, could be worth looking into.
 
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What about ulcers? Since this seems to be related to being out at shows which increases stress levels and can cause them to flare up and cause pain?
Just a thought, could be worth looking into.

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Have just been talking about this. He is an incessant (sp?) crib biter....(sorry, forgot earlier on in my post). Is there any way of testing without scoping?
 
Without scoping, the only way really would be using trial and error. You could use antacids and see if that makes any difference. How about cutting out the chaff and feeding just concentrates and increasing the bulk with giving more hay? I know the normal thing to do would be to turnout more, however if you are in a mind to start doing experiments, knowing how these horses are kept, I would suggest the opposite. Keep horse in stable and only work in school for at least an hour every day, no hacking just work.

Whatever route you take, if you decide to go down the trial route, give the horse a good month at least to see if any changes are apparent.
 
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The best qualified back person in your area is Annabelle Jenks. She has had a lot of experience.

However I would be inclined to get your horse reffered to one of the three specialist equine practices in Newmarket for them to carry out further investigations to determine a diagnosis of what is causing this bucking problem.

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Thank you for this. Do I have to get a vet referal to get an appointment?
 
Tia that is a very good point. A friend of ours bought two imported warmbloods, one just backed, and they simply could not be hacked! It took her months to be able to hack them without them going into meltdown. They did not know how to be ridden any other way than in an outline, in a school. What you imprint onto a youngster goes a long way to influencing their future.

Benjamin - print out your OP for when the vet comes, or bullet points. If you are anything like me, you will think of ten things you meant to mention as soon as s/he has gone!
 
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The best qualified back person in your area is Annabelle Jenks. She has had a lot of experience.

However I would be inclined to get your horse reffered to one of the three specialist equine practices in Newmarket for them to carry out further investigations to determine a diagnosis of what is causing this bucking problem.

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Thank you for this. Do I have to get a vet referal to get an appointment?

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To be honest, I wasnt impressed with AJ - again I used T_F's chiro and he made a big difference to both of my horses. He also said my horse has a SI strain, which none of the vets (even DP) could see.

My boy then went up to Newmarket (very well known vet practice) who did full body xrays and scintigraphy and they told me the same thing - he is a git CB.

2 months later I bring him back into work - 2 days later he is hopping lame with a SI strain. The time off work meant his topline disappeared and the symptoms were apparent for the vets although my chiro saw it 6 months earlier.

Now I call the chiro and the vet out within a week of each other - I dont trust anyone anymore and always have a second opinion, whether it is a vet and dentist, vet and chiro etc etc.

I didnt need a referral for the chiro but you will need to be referred to a vet practice for scans unless you take him to newmarket and have them do a lameness work up.
 
I havent read all the replies but I'cve followed your posts in the past and you've always come across as an experienced, consiencious owner.

Without seeing or knowing the horse I would be inclined to say this is just 'him'. Throwing his toys out of the pram because he doesnt like what you're asking him to do. if it was pain he'd be doing it all the time, not on-off following a pattern.

Someone, in the past, has allowed this horse to stop when HE think's he's done enough, and as a result he doesnt see why he should do any more than he wants to.

As to what you do, that's up to you. these things CAN be undone (he;s still young), but you'd need someone with guts of steel and who REALLY knows what they're doing. Afterall, he;s not bucking out of high spirits, he MEANS these bucks and wants his rider off, that, IMO is dangerous.

Personally, I wouldnt be selling him or risking a novice buying him further down the line. He could hurt someone quite badly
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See if you can have him sent away, give him a chance...
 
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She hasn't seen him do the violent ones, but the general bucking she just thinks is temper!
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Horses (unlike people
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) are rarely bad tempered without a reason. If I've understood the OP correctly, this horse can be very, very good - or he can be very, very bad - and there is no clear pattern as to when and why.

A horse in pain is usually unco-operative most of the time - with extreme behaviour surfacing when he is asked to do something that increases the pain.

My own suspicion would be something like a brain tumour, which can cause unpredictable behaviour which escalates over a period of months/years with good times in-between initially.

Important question: does he have vet's fees insurance? If so, get him to a top clinic and get a full diagnostic work-up done - with emphasis on back and brain. This sort of work - involving MRI scans etc. IS expensive - probably prohibitively so if you don't have insurance. If you were closer I'd volunteer to have him for a couple of weeks as my rider is virtually impossible to throw - and that's the other alternative. A GOOD and VERY sticky rider who'll stay there no matter what and let him know that bucking is counter-productive - but it will ONLY work if there is no underlying physical cause for his behaviour.

A hefty course of bute (at least 4 sachets a day) is another possible diagnostic helper - if it's pain, then a BIG course of bute should stop the behaviour (but of course won't tell you where the pain is.) But at least it would give you some idea as to whether there IS a physical cause - or whether he has learned to be a ratbag to get himself out of work. I have to say that the latter is rarer than you might think.
 
Get him seen by a good vet that you trust!
My mare was like this, the first vet I had couldn't see anything wrong with her but did a bute test, which showed it was pain that was the problem. She then went into horspital on his day off and was spotted by a very good vet who decided he wanted to treat her and is now treating her problems and working with me to help my girl.
She was sweet natured and turned like this all of a sudden so I know how disheartening it is.
Although I do have to bring her back into work in a couple of weeks... Wish me luck!

Keep us updated
 
i agree Tia, these KWPN creatures often have attitudes that quite honestly stink. Its not often their fault either, they just don't see stuff like our horses do here and have very sheltered lives till then. If he was mine and i was sure it was tantrum related i would use a bit of reverse horsey phycolodgy on him, (sorry about spelling). make him think he's doing what he wants. Lots of hacking, i wouldn't even school for a month or so, fun rides, lots of friends and make him enjoy life. when you do finally get back to being in the ring make it fun, no pressure and keep your days out short and sweet. I have one little horse who simply tells me when he's had enough of the day, he won't get me off but can normally be seen breaking loose and running for the gate out the show. i know now that i'm better to take him home quicker! I would possibly do one fun class at a show then take him home, rather than making him wait around and plot in the lorry, that way every things positive. Sometimes people have thought me mad to have withdrawn from classes for no reason but i know when my horse is fed up, and he will then make the day really unenjoyable. I have pulled out of BD regionals before second test as he's been in a foul mood and i know forcing him in the ring will only result in a tantrum and we won't get placed anyway!
 
I don't know if this helps but Fly my DWB does this when I 'push' him. He is very athletic and can buck like no horse ive ever seen before! He was sold in the past because of these issues and is a very complex character. Unfortunately he is now 13 and that is just him I am afraid, I have just learnt what not to ask but I still have the odd spat with him and we average around half each in who wins the row! Not much help I know but good luck with him.xx
 
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Benjamin - print out your OP for when the vet comes, or bullet points. If you are anything like me, you will think of ten things you meant to mention as soon as s/he has gone!

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Great idea, thank you Sooty. I think I may just print this whole thread
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I feel incredibly down about the whole thing today, worst of all, I feel bad for Rudy, he doesn't understand, and I really don't know what to do for the best...#
First port of call is my vet I think...
 
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What is he like if you feed him a fibre only diet? Cut out sugar beet and swap alfa-a for hi-fi and add hi fibre cubes if he's a poor doer.

Maybe try and increase his turnout?

I've had 2 horses with similar issues and they were both much worse in winter - Nov-Apr normally involved lots of falls and bucking fits and then summers were (mostly) great.

Big hugs, you're brave to keep getting on - my nerves are shot to pieces now even though my current horse is very sensible and sane. I didn't fix either of my other horses, i avoided the situations i knew were likely flashpoints and so was very limited with what I did. I persevered for 7 yrs with one, but only a year with the other
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Hi Fairhill,
He was such a good dooer through the summer, I didn't really need to start feeding him until the weather turned cold! But then all he gets is adlib hay, the alfa a (which sends Benj round the twist so will think about changing) and the lo cal. The speedy beet is supposed to be a high fibre thing....no sugars etc.
He is out for at least 12 hours a day in the winter and will be out 24/7 when the weather gets better.
I don't want to be scared or nervous around him....thats just not me. I want to be brave and get back on and keep trying.....
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I havent read all the replies but I'cve followed your posts in the past and you've always come across as an experienced, consiencious owner.

Without seeing or knowing the horse I would be inclined to say this is just 'him'. Throwing his toys out of the pram because he doesnt like what you're asking him to do. if it was pain he'd be doing it all the time, not on-off following a pattern.

Someone, in the past, has allowed this horse to stop when HE think's he's done enough, and as a result he doesnt see why he should do any more than he wants to.

As to what you do, that's up to you. these things CAN be undone (he;s still young), but you'd need someone with guts of steel and who REALLY knows what they're doing. Afterall, he;s not bucking out of high spirits, he MEANS these bucks and wants his rider off, that, IMO is dangerous.

Personally, I wouldnt be selling him or risking a novice buying him further down the line. He could hurt someone quite badly
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See if you can have him sent away, give him a chance...

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I totally hear what you are saying.
I don't want to sell him, I want to help him......
Do you not think, that by getting someone else to stick on him, will mean that he won't buck for them?
I have spoken to a local person who takes on 'problem' horses, and he seems to think that someone may have 'fixed' him in the past and him getting on him may not be the answer....
*bangs head*
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