End of tether - Advice needed

I am sure this will provoke some responses, but you should try a proper back person, rather than a McTimoney. There is a world of difference. Proper back people will be able to pick up kissing spines.

If all this fails and you think its in his brain rather than physical, then maybe you should think about making a hard decision. No horse is worth injuring yourself seriously for.
 
My sisters horse can buck out of the blue sometimes. He has been through full vet checkup and isn't in pain. In the end we have turned him out 24/7 which has made his behavior a million times better.
 
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If all this fails and you think its in his brain rather than physical, then maybe you should think about making a hard decision. No horse is worth injuring yourself seriously for.

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Also - if horse is not enjoying being ridden - then maybe they shouldn't be made to... maybe they best as a companion.. not saying this is your situation P - but just something I sometimes think about.
 
Two thoughts occur to me (aside from the KS route and possibly something to do with hocks / hooves)...

It could be a trapped nerve somewhere, neck, back, pelvis... which would only flare up on the odd occasion.

It could be a neurological issue... My last horse would unpredictably bolt with me, for absolutely no reason. One minute, fine, next, total freak - didn't matter if we were walking, trotting, standing still, turning... After two serious accidents with him, I sold him as unsafe to a lovely couple who had a lot of work done with him. They discovered (in a clinic in France!) that he had a trapped nerve and a problem with a vertebrae in his neck which didn't allow for the correct amount of air fill to cushion the impact of a rider on his back - the trapped nerve was sorted but there is nothing to be done with the vertebrae. However, given which one it is, he is able to be driven, just not ridden - ie no pressure to his back as this is where the vertebrae leads but he can pull a carriage with no issues...

I'm not sure how this was discovered as they were just kind enough to let me know what was found and wanted me to know it wasn't a behavioural issue with him. I'm very grateful to them by the way! He is a stunner and deserved a good home.

I'm rambling... Anyway, I suggest if your insurance can handle it, get him fully and thoroughly checked over for neuro issues as well as cranial, osteo, muscular etc...

Good luck...
 
My first horse was a lot like this - boy could he buck - if you could sit 3 of them out he would normally stop! It started a few weeks after I had bought him - luckily for him by that time I was utterly besotted with him but I must admit I came off him so many times it was untrue. The first time I took him XC schooling he had me off 3 times!!

When we found out a bit about his past history things made more sense. We had him checked over physically, saddle check, teeth - the lot - nothing wrong! BUT when I bought him he was 10 and as a youngster he had BSJA and got a bit of a handful and so his owner had put him on working livery thinking the extra work would "square" him up - no way he discovered if he had to do something he didn't want to do or if he assessed that the jockey on board was a bit of a "passenger" he would just buck them off!!

He was a very self opinionated chap - half Arab - & I loved him to bits - he was with me until he was pts at the age of 25. He was still hunting in his late teens and could still buck for GB - if you could sit 3 he would stop! Nothing would stop him - you could hit him, yank his head up and gallop him on - he could still do it! All this for a "first horse" - I must have been mad!

On the other hand have you thought about ulcers? It could be pain related and he can only cope with so much "work" and then he is too sore? I would think that more likely myself than KS if he has regularly had back checks and saddle checked etc

Best of luck and if you keep him get a nice deep seated saddle with big knee and thigh rolls!!!!!!
 
The best qualified back person in your area is Annabelle Jenks. She has had a lot of experience.

However I would be inclined to get your horse reffered to one of the three specialist equine practices in Newmarket for them to carry out further investigations to determine a diagnosis of what is causing this bucking problem.
 
Hey P.

Sorry to hear that the Dude has been giving you grief.
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As your back person has made mention of KS I think you have only one option and that is to make certain that there is no underlying physical cause for these outburst. I'm sorry to say it but they do sound typical - I know that's not what you want to hear but I think you have to rule it out before you treat it as purely behavioural because if you ride on through it and find out later that he has some kind of damage / injury you will never forgive yourself.

I hope you get to the bottom of it soon.

S xxx
 
Having seen him play up, well done for getting on and trying to get through it.

I am certainly no expert, but the day I came over to watch, it looked like a temper tantrum from where I was standing.
 
I have nothing further to add in terms of suggestions, my first thought was KS and I would want that ruled out before anything else I think, if it was me.

But fair play to you, you are one brave lady!! Getting back on repeatedly take massive guts. I've been there so I know how the stubborness takes over and the "he won't do it again" mentality sets in, but please be careful. You could be very seriously injured or worse from his behaviour, and he really isn't worth it, no horse is worth that.

Good luck x
 
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First thing that popped into my head was kissing spines but then from what you've said the bucking occured when you were asking him to work again (going in to do a 2nd test and 2nd jumping class) it's sounding like a temper tantrum.

Out of interest what did the previous owner say?

If he were my horse I'd get him to my vet for a full work-up in order to rule out pain. Once thats been ruled out I'dget somebody with an arse like glue to sort him out.

Good luck with it all and let us know how you get on
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I agree with this, check out the pain thing asap BUT to me it sounds like he is actually napping (in an extreme form). My mare did this, when she thought she'd had enough, she's just throw a total strop and refuse to work.
Unfortunately when he gets you off (and injures you) he realises that he CAN get you off and that it means he isn't having to work, so he gets what he wants and eventually he loses respect for you (sorry but I do think it is a problem that will get worse
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Someone has metioned it I think but you could stick him on Bute (consulting your vet of course
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) and see if that makes a difference?
Or get a pro rider to sit on and have a feel of what he is doing. Good luck. x
 
He has adlib hay, alfa a, lo cal and speedi beet.


I would add that I don't feed alfa a to anything as it has turned all mine into fruit loops, but the way hes doing it doesn't sound food related? Could he be tying up, hence not liking coming out second time but OK first?

Best of luck, anyway.
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Oh P, he's not getting any better then?
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I agree that getting the vet out for a full lameness exam could be the best bet - maybe try the bute test first as I'm sure that would be one of the things they might suggest?

Also like Halfstep's suggestion of going right back to basics for a period of time.

If the vet rules out pain related issues then perhaps as Mayflower suggested get a pro to try him and see what they think.

Also, a few people on this forum have said that Alfa A can make their horses sharper so perhaps switch to hi-fi?
 
My heart goes out to you, it can be so disheartening going through something like this with a horse you love to bits and you keep questioning yourself over and over again and getting paranoid that something is wrong/horse is in pain and you can't get to the bottom of it.

One thought that comes to mind is that if this isn't a pain reaction, then maybe it is a learned pattern of behaviour he uses as an evasion technique when he is asked to do something that he doesn't feel confident about or something that pushes him out of his comfort zone.

I think if he were my horse, I'd be going back to basics with him and doing alot of ground work with him (Kelly Marks' books have some great exercises) and establishing my position as herd leader and gaining his confidence in me.

Good luck, you sound like a lovely owner!
 
I really really know how you feel, bear there, done it with Fleur. With her it was a mixture of back pain - which took a very long time to get to the root of, as it was initially said to be her hocks. Her temperament - when ridden she constantly asked and asked and could throw her toys out if pushed too much, very talented high strung mare did not help. She could have some spectacular explosions.

As others have said, rule out pain and then get someone in to assess him and maybe get him through the (if they are) temper tantrums. Richard Maxwell type?

I do hope you get it sorted. With Fleur, I retired her as a broodmare. To be honest after four years of trying to get to the root of the problem, finally found the back issue, then for it to be now be a mental issue (she now had got it fixed in her head that riding could cause pain), I had enough.

She had very good breeding, was well put together and her general temperament was excellent, hence she has produced four wonderful foals.

As others have said, the old owner may be able to fill you in and maybe this is why he was at a dealers.

I do hope all works out for you both.
 
Not in the same league at all.....took the 4 yo old for a hack on saturday....not been out on him own for ages due to several reasons...got halfway down the track into the woods and decides he aint going any further.....now I know he knows what aids are for forwards...so when he started turning around to head for home I gave him a crack....and he bucked...I was laughing cos he's only 13.2hh and forced him on....cue proper rodeo-stylee bucking bronco.....still laughing cos no way is that dam hairy beast getting me off when I can manage to stay on my own demented animal.....and after that little tantrum, when I made him do as he was told......not a peep, good as gold...(until next time, most-likely)

Perhaps he is testing you also, but frankly I would not be laughing if I was on your lad, sounds a bit scary to me......you have been lucky so far.

However, you have also had some really brilliant times with him, so I think you may regret selling him on unless you do all the usual checks....again....to make sure theres nothing being missed.....
 
Poor you.....this rings lots of bells with me, it brought a tear to my eye. I had a mare who used to run backwards at speed (on the road) and rear. I won't go over what others have said re physical problems, but once you do rule those out perhaps think about a different approach. What about referring him to Richard Maxwell/ Monty Roberts or similar trained person. If he is ok physically he is probably just saying "no I have had enough now" in other words he is the one in charge, and he knows it. If this is the case he needs to find his place in your herd and that needs to be with you in charge. If this is the case work on the ground would def help (try perfect manners by Kelly Marks). It's hard to believe this can make a difference to your ridden work but it does ! If he was mine and in view of all your falls I would contact an expert for their opinion first, try these contacts:
http://www.intelligenthorsemanship.co.uk/
http://www.richard-maxwell.com/
I am not a NH fanatic and some of it is a bit namby panby but these approaches can and do work. Best of luck in whatever you decide. X
 
Oh P, didn't know it had got this bad
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You are one brave thing, for getting back on so many times
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My first instinct would be kissing spines, then a trapped nerve....what tests has the vet done so far?

FWIW, I can't let Alfa A near Twiglet, sent him barmy.....but if it was feed related, would expect his reactions to be more constant and consistent, not just the odd bucking fit (I got crib biting, napping, excessive stress etc).

Hope you get to the bottom of it.
 
This is really intriguing and like you i would want to find a solution i am too stubborn to not find an answer.

How does he work at home? From your description it seems to happen mainly away from the yard is that right?

How often does this happen say if you ride 6 days in a week how many of those days will he buck violently?

If you schooled him at home then rested him for 20 mins then schooled him again (simulating a competition) would he buck violently the second time?

My thoughts are that it is spasmodic which would normally rule out pain because if he can be fine for days then horrible i would be inclined to think it was behavioral and it may be worth sending him to be re-schooled by people who wont fall off so he wont get away with it.

I feel for you because the good times make the bad times harder to take if you get what i mean. A horse that is bad all the time is easier to distance yourself from but a horse that can be amazing then horrible is a really hard to take.

Please keep us posted i am really intrigued.
 
My lad used to rodeo at the end of a canter on occassion.I dont know if it was because he was green and young and had come of the track but year down the road we found he had hock spavin.Ill never know if it was pain related or high jinks.
 
He doesn't sound right to me. For him to do a round of jumping well, finish, start again and then repeatedly explode. You've learnt his behavior and what you can do with him improves when you're firm and ride forwards, but then he still violently puts you on the floor?

He's done it a lot and its a matter of time before someone gets really hurt.

I'm in a similar situation but fortunately (depending on how you look at it!), my big mare went lame so she was referred to Sue Dyson at the Animal Health Trust. At least then it has come to either getting her fixed (unlikely!) or we'll get loss of use and PTS.

Don't keep putting yourself in danger, its so not worth it.
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WOAH
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I pop out for a coffee and look what happens!
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Thank you ALL from the bottom of my heart for your replies and input. I will try and answer all your q's and try and reply personally. If I miss you, pls don't take it as I am ignoring you....

P x
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I would definitely not have him PTS, unless the problem is found to be caused by something physical that cannot be fixed - in which case it may be the only option.

If it is behavioural then I think I would advise either sending him to a professional who deals with horses like this, who should be able to stick on and push him through the problem, or sell him to somebody who is confident and competent enough to deal with his behaviour.

Sorry to hear you're going through this - definitely would get a really good vet and back person to have a look at him - KS sounds like it could be possible. Fingers crossed it is something solvable.
 
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I would definitely not have him PTS, unless the problem is found to be caused by something physical that cannot be fixed - in which case it may be the only option.

If it is behavioural then I think I would advise either sending him to a professional who deals with horses like this, who should be able to stick on and push him through the problem, or sell him to somebody who is confident and competent enough to deal with his behaviour.



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To be fair, the OP sounds more than confident and competent enough as she obviously doesn't take BS as she gets back on!

I'm not going to lie, you've done lots for him already - I think he is just messed up in the head. If there IS a physical issue there, it's obviously well hidden and as he is he is bloody dangerous.

I'd PTS or advertise him, very honestly, for suicidal males only
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- that seemed to guarantee a response!
 
I am not saying OP is not confident or competent, but as she says, she has reached the end of her tether and wants to be able to have fun instead of being chucked off, which is perfectly reasonable.

However just because she has reached her limits doesn't mean the horse should be written off - it doesn't sound to me like the horse is a lunatic, but either in pain, or very very stroppy - and if thats the case then there are people out there who are experienced at dealing with this kind of problem and are velcro bummed enough to stick on and ride through the issue, thats all I'm saying.
 
I haven't had time to read all the replies, sorry, but we had this problem. I bought a gorgeous warmblood for my daughter , she was a good rider and had passed her PC A test and BHSAI. He was ok for about a week then it started , he put us both on the floor and I got the seller out to ride him . She beat him up and said we were too kind to him and drop his feed. We perservered[ big mistake] as soon as she got on him she would trot and keep going. About 2 months later we took him to a show and I legged her up on to him , he went ballistic she broke her leg and told me to take him to the vets for advice.
They said it was his back and he had loads of treatment costing a fortune. Her leg repaired and he was put back into work , she was working for an eventer and we took him there , he said after a week that he would get a dealer to take him away and part exchange him!
The new horse was great, the dealer turned our horse away but he quickly started to loose weight, he was pts a few weeks later and on post mortem it was found he had liver disease. No one thought of this before and we felt so sorry for the horse.
I would never keep a bad horse again ,I would rather have it pts.
 
Sorry to hear about this. I have been having very similar problems and thoughts with my horse as well - he started bolting, seemingly out of nowhere. However, there is always a reason, and after a lot of advice from all sorts of people and a lot of soul searching which didn't result in much, I swallowed my prejudice and contacted a horse communicator, who told me that my horse is in pain.

Took him to an osteopath, who could confirm that the horse is in pain (in exactly the same place as the horse communicator said) Horse is now being treated by the osteo and we are lungeing/long reining and are due to start ridden work in a few weeks.

However, if something has been causing the horse pain for a long time (this was an old injury - sounds like it might have been going on for a while with your boy too) - the behaviour may remain even after the pain is gone. I have plans to get a local rider who is meant to be very very good with tricky horses ride my horse when he has definitely healed.

I completely understand how upset you must feel, but remember that horses usually do things for a reason, rather than just for the sake of being nasty, so if you can pinpoint the issue there is a great chance you can sort it out as well.

PM me if you like - as you know I am nearby and may be able to recommend some people who can help.
 
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