Engaging the hindquarters..

Tern

Well-Known Member
Joined
23 December 2012
Messages
2,608
Location
Gloucestershire
Visit site
I feel very stupid for asking this question.. :eek:

How do I engage the hindquarters? I mean they are definitely moving but that isn't engaging. :) I have been told numerous times that if I can get my mare's hindquarters engaged then her coming onto the correct outline will be what she does 'naturally' somehow.. However, I don't feel that this certain welsh wants to be very natural. :D :p

Anyway, how would I 'engage the hindquarters' and is it true that it will help her form a correct outline rather than typical welshie lock of the neck and just tuck my head in when signal is given rather than doing it properly..
 

Farma

Well-Known Member
Joined
17 March 2010
Messages
2,107
Visit site
Where to start? Do u have an instructor? Have you ever looked at the scales of training? Any videos of u riding?
 

Palindrome

Well-Known Member
Joined
19 July 2012
Messages
1,718
Visit site
Lateral work is very helpful. You can start on the ground, for example ask her to move her haunches away from you by pointing/pushing behind the girth with your hand. You will see her pick up her inside leg, move it underneath her body and lower the inside hip, that's engagement. If the head shots upward, continue gently until she can do it with a long relaxed neck (could be several sessions if needed). Don't forget to work both sides.
For the ridden work, I think leg yield on a circle and spiraling in and out of a 20 meter circle (make sure the horse is holding himself not just falling through the shoulder) are good to start with. You will be working from the inside leg to the outside rein (outside rein prevents the shoulder from falling, you will have a feeling of horse wrapping around your inside leg, make sure you are sitting tall with shoulders back and relaxed bended arms). Try not to have too much neck bend but rather same bend from nose to tail. A good riding instructor on the ground is worth their weight in gold and horse needs to be forward off the leg as a prerequisite.
 
Last edited:

soulfull

Well-Known Member
Joined
25 July 2007
Messages
6,507
Location
Staffs
Visit site
I have a Welsh who sounds similar. I had to teach her to stretch down first. Has taken me a year to get any kind of over track in the walk.

No it isn't that simple as getting the hind end engaged BUT. It is the only place to start.
You may find warm up on a gentle contact including canter with you off her back will help do this before asking for engagement. Lots of serpentine in walk then trot, shortening the contact a little at a time as she offers it too you. You may still need to ask for flexion and then push hind legs forward

Throw in some 15 circles here and there too

You will need a good instructor too
 

_GG_

Well-Known Member
Joined
3 August 2012
Messages
9,037
Location
Gloucester
Visit site
Engagement is the sum of many parts.

The hind legs, quarters and activity in the hocks are the last thing to work on. When talking of engagement, that is the goal to work towards. When talking of connection, roundness and self carriage, that is the goal of which engagement is one of the last pieces of the puzzle.

The scales of training will be really useful reading and understanding the separate elements as they work individually and together.

For example, the hind legs will be restricted in how far under the trunk they can reach when there is tension through the back. There will be tension through the back where there is tension in the neck, so what soulfull has said about teaching her horse to stretch down first is perfect. Without doing that and unlocking the tension in the neck, you'd never release it through the back and so all hind action would be restricted.

This is where the scale of training comes in to help people. It highlights what we need to have in place before asking for the next thing.

Generally speaking though, when you have relaxation and suppleness, forwardness and balance, the kind of exercises I would use to encourage more engagement behind would be things like spiralling down to a small circle and leg yielding out of it. Most lateral work but only when done properly and when the horse knows the difference between bend in the neck and flexion at the poll as if that isn't right, it won't transfer through the body properly. Transitions are key and one of the most important elements of training that is one of the most neglected is the use of an effective half halt. If you do 10 transitions, you should give 10 half halts...or more. If you can give an effective half halt, you can tailor it to the need. So you can have a call to attention half halt...the one you use just before any kind of transition to let the horse know that an instruction is about to be given, making them much more able to respond immediately. Then, you have a "check" half halt. This is one that I use to give the horse a check...to sit it up a bit if it's getting flat, to bring it back a bit if it's getting on the forehand or falling out of rhythm or tempo.

So...work to create relaxation and rhythm.
Work to create suppleness.
Work to create good transitions both between the gaits and within them.
Work to create independence of the body parts and unlocking the poll...teaching the horse the difference between flexion and bend)
Work on the leg yield out of a smaller circle to a big one. This has proven to me over the years to help with so many connection issues. It requires flexion at the poll. It requires a bend through the body (suppleness) and it requires the inside hind to step much further under the trunk, all in a situation that is fairly easy on the horse so long as it is fit and able to cope with the smaller circle.

The other thing I would say is, although the scales of training are there for a reason, it is not a requirement that you have one established before you start on the next. Quite the opposite in fact. For me, it is a tool that reminds us what the bases and foundations for good work are...those elements that are important in that they need to be present through all work. Then it brings in more advanced elements, but with a good instructor, starting to ask for a little collection can actually help with solidifying some of the basics for example. The horse may not be ready to actually learn collection in its true form, but the introduction of it can assist with improving the easier work, so don't get stuck into thinking you can only do the basics.

The key to all of it is...if you need to, get a really good instructor as no matter what you think you can feel from the saddle, a good instructor will see a million more things from the ground and also have the tools in the box to give you to help you through.

Over and above that...even if you don't need an instructor, still get one in from time to time as we ALWAYS need eyes on the ground to keep us on track and not one of us knows it all ;) xxx
 

Tern

Well-Known Member
Joined
23 December 2012
Messages
2,608
Location
Gloucestershire
Visit site
Thanks all.. my instructor moved up north so haven't found a new one as of yet (also recently lost pony so haven't been riding horse too much).. I am too scared to ask instructors at the yard and I now feel like a div. :eek: :eek:

Rara007 - I have no hills.. flattest place known to earth. :D

Palindrome - Going to sound like an utter idiot and incompetent owner now.. no much how much I try and try the horse hasn't ever been taught that leg doesn't mean move forward (and you're only using one) so no matter how much you stab her or squeeze her with your one leg she will not even shift over one step.. likes to ignore the whip at this point too. :) That is yet another thing on the list of this year's "what to do"

Soulfull - The canter won't be coming until mid-summer where she has has work and less hyper + fitter so canter should be relatively like a normal horse's canter.. I am still having trouble with getting the medium between giraffe and being on the forehand.. nothing is ever simple in her brain. ;)

GG - Many thanks, lots and lots to think about there. :)
 

_GG_

Well-Known Member
Joined
3 August 2012
Messages
9,037
Location
Gloucester
Visit site
Thanks all.. my instructor moved up north so haven't found a new one as of yet (also recently lost pony so haven't been riding horse too much).. I am too scared to ask instructors at the yard and I now feel like a div. :eek: :eek:

Rara007 - I have no hills.. flattest place known to earth. :D

Palindrome - Going to sound like an utter idiot and incompetent owner now.. no much how much I try and try the horse hasn't ever been taught that leg doesn't mean move forward (and you're only using one) so no matter how much you stab her or squeeze her with your one leg she will not even shift over one step.. likes to ignore the whip at this point too. :) That is yet another thing on the list of this year's "what to do"

Soulfull - The canter won't be coming until mid-summer where she has has work and less hyper + fitter so canter should be relatively like a normal horse's canter.. I am still having trouble with getting the medium between giraffe and being on the forehand.. nothing is ever simple in her brain. ;)

GG - Many thanks, lots and lots to think about there. :)

Can you get video of you trying to get leg yield? Most often when horses won't do it or don't do it properly, it is a contact issue, not a response to the leg issue x
 

Tern

Well-Known Member
Joined
23 December 2012
Messages
2,608
Location
Gloucestershire
Visit site
Can you get video of you trying to get leg yield? Most often when horses won't do it or don't do it properly, it is a contact issue, not a response to the leg issue x

I can try but have no arena so have to ride in field when it's dry enough. :) I will see if I can get one next session.
 

Palindrome

Well-Known Member
Joined
19 July 2012
Messages
1,718
Visit site
Palindrome - Going to sound like an utter idiot and incompetent owner now.. no much how much I try and try the horse hasn't ever been taught that leg doesn't mean move forward (and you're only using one) so no matter how much you stab her or squeeze her with your one leg she will not even shift over one step.. likes to ignore the whip at this point too. :) That is yet another thing on the list of this year's "what to do"

No worries, we are all learning. I found with mine that although she already knew lateral work, she was a bit confused to what the leg meant (she felt more like she was trying to guess what movement I wanted rather than just move away from the leg). That's where I found the ground work helped.

Something I was taught by western riders is that you want to teach the horse to move away from pressure and always release the pressure as soon as the horse is responding. That way it is easy for the horse to understand that he did what you wanted. So with that in mind, to have the horse move his haunches away on the ground, you put a bit of pressure with your hand on the flank. If horse doesn't move away (very likely if he hasn't been taught that before), I just continue to poke with my hand until the horse finds it annoying enough that he takes a step sideways (poke increases in intensity if horse is ignoring). Once you have had a sideways step, you can pat/relax/say good girl/give a 5 seconds break/treat (whatever you want to do to show the horse that's the right response) and ask again until the horse clearly understands what you want and give you several steps. After a few successful sessions you can slightly move the area where you are pushing to the area where your leg will be asking when you are in the saddle and voila, this should transfer to the ridden work where you can repeat the process pressure/response/release. You can also teach the horse to move his shoulders away and back up on the ground, then transfer to riding. With lots of practice, the horse should respond to a light touch of legs and perhaps later on to the seat (a fun exercise is then to drop the reins and see if you can direct the horse through a circle, serpentine, diagonal, etc.. only using your legs/seat :) ).
 
Last edited:

blackhor2e

Well-Known Member
Joined
24 August 2012
Messages
586
Location
Cheshire
Visit site
I think the best exercise I have used to engage the hind quarters was to do lots and lots of transitions, mainly trot,walk,trot and trot,halt,trot. But all the exercises won't do you any good if your horse isn't in front of the leg.
 

Tern

Well-Known Member
Joined
23 December 2012
Messages
2,608
Location
Gloucestershire
Visit site
No worries, we are all learning. I found with mine that although she already knew lateral work, she was a bit confused to what the leg meant (she felt more like she was trying to guess what movement I wanted rather than just move away from the leg). That's where I found the ground work helped.

Something I was taught by western riders is that you want to teach the horse to move away from pressure and always release the pressure as soon as the horse is responding. That way it is easy for the horse to understand that he did what you wanted. So with that in mind, to have the horse move his haunches away on the ground, you put a bit of pressure with your hand on the flank. If horse doesn't move away (very likely if he hasn't been taught that before), I just continue to poke with my hand until the horse finds it annoying enough that he takes a step sideways (poke increases in intensity if horse is ignoring). Once you have had a sideways step, you can pat/relax/say good girl/give a 5 seconds break/treat (whatever you want to do to show the horse that's the right response) and ask again until the horse clearly understands what you want and give you several steps. After a few successful sessions you can slightly move the area where you are pushing to the area where your leg will be asking when you are in the saddle and voila, this should transfer to the ridden work where you can repeat the process pressure/response/release. You can also teach the horse to move his shoulders away and back up on the ground, then transfer to riding. With lots of practice, the horse should respond to a light touch of legs and perhaps later on to the seat (a fun exercise is then to drop the reins and see if you can direct the horse through a circle, serpentine, diagonal, etc.. only using your legs/seat :) ).

Thank you so much, lots to try! :)

Awesome xxx

This was her contact last year at end of summer.. hands could be raised a bit more but I had just got back on after 2 months due to rider injury. :)

10s9gkj.jpg


I think the best exercise I have used to engage the hind quarters was to do lots and lots of transitions, mainly trot,walk,trot and trot,halt,trot. But all the exercises won't do you any good if your horse isn't in front of the leg.

She is very off the leg.. can't carry a whip or we go whizzing around doing flatwork.. jumping she doesn't mind it being there and if I need it in flatwork she tends to bloody ignore it.. typical mares. :) :p
 
Top