Enough to put you off breaking horses in for life! *Video*

kirstykate said:
With the carrot sticks:p:p:D
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Ha now that is faf!

I suppose if on a time/money deadline on a big yard this is why horses are produced this way.
:confused:

Me? Rather take the time(not too long tho kirstykate!) to long rein etc so they get used to voice commands and stirups on their side and long reins so I have steering.

But then I do like an easy relaxed life :)

Each to their own I guess hence all the different replies.
 
Bigbenji said:
Ha now that is faf!

I suppose if on a time/money deadline on a big yard this is why horses are produced this way.
:confused:

Me? Rather take the time(not too long tho kirstykate!) to long rein etc so they get used to voice commands and stirups on their side and long reins so I have steering.

But then I do like an easy relaxed life :)

Each to their own I guess hence all the different replies.
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Exactly. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing , I personally think it needs refining a little, which is what I learnt with experience I used to be the same jump on and see what happens, but later it was jump on and see what happens with a horse that had a mouth a brain and enough sharpness to go forward from a rider and into balanced work with little effort more or less form the start so to me a little of everything was best:)
 
I'm sorry KristyKate, don't follow. Conventional methods equall fafing around with carrot sticks? Oh wait smiley faces in post.

Just proves my point on another post I commented on the other day. People really don't think starting horses is actually a skill. We are so impressed with sticky rider we really don't stop to think about it any other way. And of course if you take time with one to SET THEM UP FOR LIFE properly you use carrot sticks.

Ok got it now.

Terri
 
Equilibrium Ireland said:
No cruelty but seriously, proper groundwork means horses just do not act in this manner. It is that simple. And for every 1 that can handle this, probably 2 others will have issues they don't need to have. Plus, all the groundwork is part of learning and letting your horse enjoy the process. They love to learn. Why make it difficult? Don't see the point.

To the poster that's sending her horse away because you think this might happen to you and you couldn't stick it? Highly unlikely your horse will be started this way and if this is the way, give Janet a call instead. Trust me, babies that are taking off in fright, yes fright, and bucking people off, they have not been done right and those people shouldn't be starting horses. Especially for money from other people.

Terri
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Not necessarily so that groundwork prevents this!

I have had a few horses that freak when it comes time for the rider to actually get on them - usually someone has 'had a go' prior to sending it away and the horse is in the habit of bucking to drop the rider. In majority of cases the person the horse is sent to is told 'We have lunged and long reined him but that is all!'

These people are obviously experienced professionals. Knew what to expect and the horse was ridden through its 'problem'
I reckon that the rider was velcroed to the saddle!

Once the horse realised that it could not shift the rider it started to go nicely. Second time it was still worried about the rider but accepted that he was going to be ridden.

Young horses that have dropped the rider the first time they are backed usually frighten themselves sill making matters worse for the next time.
 
FestiveBoomBoom said:
But then how many of these horses on the continent are affected by these methods of backing and end up with issues further down the line. I wonder if this horse will be one of those? It will be interesting to follow!
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And how many horses in this country nap because they aren't ridden properly forwards at the crucial breaking stage?

I've broken quite a few horses and I long rein and spend a while desensitising etc and thankfully I've never had any react like this but that doesn't mean I've done a better job than these people.

We don't know what groundwork the horse has done or what it's background is, for all we know this could be it's last resort before the knackers.

As I said before, I would be really interested to see how the horse is doing now and how many horses this yard turns around with these methods.

I'll say again, it's not the way I would do it myself, but I don't really understand the horror and people assuming the horse is now ruined- it looked to me like he had actually improved over the length of the video.
 
Foxhunter49 said:
Not necessarily so that groundwork prevents this!

I have had a few horses that freak when it comes time for the rider to actually get on them - usually someone has 'had a go' prior to sending it away and the horse is in the habit of bucking to drop the rider. In majority of cases the person the horse is sent to is told 'We have lunged and long reined him but that is all!'

These people are obviously experienced professionals. Knew what to expect and the horse was ridden through its 'problem'
I reckon that the rider was velcroed to the saddle!

Once the horse realised that it could not shift the rider it started to go nicely. Second time it was still worried about the rider but accepted that he was going to be ridden.

Young horses that have dropped the rider the first time they are backed usually frighten themselves sill making matters worse for the next time.
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Echo this entirely.

Said what I wanted to say but much more clearly!
 
Foxhunter49 said:
Not necessarily so that groundwork prevents this!

I have had a few horses that freak when it comes time for the rider to actually get on them - usually someone has 'had a go' prior to sending it away and the horse is in the habit of bucking to drop the rider. In majority of cases the person the horse is sent to is told 'We have lunged and long reined him but that is all!'
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I've had several supposedly 'unbreakables' that had been screwed up by the previous 'professional' who was entrusted with the job (a couple of them through HHO :D ) They actually all responded well to a more patient and consistent approach. I've had two freak out unexpectedly, one a very 'sensitive' WB mare who was fine for 4-6 strides with the rider, then freaked and bucked like stink! She did that 3 times! We then sent her straight out on the lunge with the rider and she took off - but no bucking! Once she'd done 20 circuits flat out she realised the jockey was a benign predator.

The second was a home-bred youngster who was one of THE most laidback chaps I've bred. All the prelim work went well, then I held him while the jockey went up! He was 'chatting' to his Mum (me) and didn't quite twig what was happening - he lost focus on the jockey and sufddenly thought a monster was on his back! He exploded. So once jockey had brushed himself down he got back on with no-one holding the horse - horse KNEW it was someone he knew and trusted - and accepted it fine!

I've had many more who WOULD have freaked out like this horse did - if we'd just got on and expected them to go forward. Patience and time meant they didn't throw anyone, or become terrified by the process. Building trust takes time! MAKING a horse tolerate a rider and go forward is NO way to build trust!
 
I've broken a few in my time (:-), and am a proponent of take your time, then get on and ride 'em forward - so somewhere in between the video and "faffing" - and have only ever had a couple of horses react this way (and only fell off one); all came right quickly, the majority don't have any problem at all. I don't longrein at all any more (unless the horse is to be driven in harness), I prefer to teach steering under saddle with legs, seat AND rein. Long reining IS NOT the same as riding and should only be done by very experienced trainers; more harm than good.
 
I totally agree with Janet George, I inherited a horse who they had tried to break like this and had been labelled a problem horse, I have never had such a flighty reactive horse.

We ended up keeping him he is a real sweetie now but is very wary of mounting and while I have let my sister ride him because he knows her now and trusts her you could never put a rider on him he had not been around first as he would just explode, he hates whips and if you chased him for anything you would be lucky to see him again.

I am not a drip and break a few horses and we have pointers some horses may come to and improve after the initial outbursts however I would imagine some like the one we have would just not improve with this treatment and become bolshy flighty and considered dangerous, you could not even get near him with a saddle at first, he was in fact very scared and none of the things he said he was.

I may be wrong but when a horse is very flighty and reactive you can force them in to accepting things but I do not think it is a good way as I think you are always sitting on a potential timebomb, I think it is much better when they understand what is going on rather than just having to accept it.
As for the rider pretty impressive , but you could see before he got on what was coming. I also do not believe when using methods like this that some horses are not ruined or even injured during the process although I doubt very much if they will post about this.

And I also feel if this video had had a different setting maybe a gypsy cob on a campsite or at a horse fair people would have been recoiling in horror, I noticed not only was there tape halfway across the arena that did not stop the horse and potentially could have got wrapped round one of it's legs and caused it to flee even more but the top corner seems to be taped off so I am assuming they have had horses smash in to the corners or know it is a possibility.
The potential for serious injury is so great.
 
Nail on head there Trinity. Gypsy camp and this thread would be totally different. Oh it's Holland and they have great horses so its ok.

FWIW, I've broken over 200 horses here in Ireland. From racehorses to ponies to everything in between. I've yet to fall off and have never had to have a sticky bum. Fields, arenas, wherever. I've asked the questions wrong if I'm being bucked off. And yes, happy forward going horses. I'm a TB person, I don't do flaffing about.

Terri
 
I agree that with the right approach no horse should buck. I've only ever had one bad breaker and he got consistently worse, even once we had backed him and turned out downright dangerous, in the end he was PTS before he did serious damage. Starting horses is a real skill, its about reading the horses reactions and language and knowing how far you can push it. I'm in a half way camp, depends on the horse, some do need long reining, lots of lunging, others need to be sat on and sent forward. Either way the rider is less important than the handler on the floor if the horse is done right, and all of mine are done with a rider and a lunge whip to help them go forwards as in video. We have done 4 in the last month, and every single one has required a completely different approach depending on their nature, there's no right or wrong way about it!
 
Equilibrium Ireland said:
Echo JG. It's wonderful that lad can sit so well but really, one shouldn't have to if you've been sympathetic towards the horse. It really doesn't take that much time to do it the right way so I don't know why this method still exists.

Terri
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Agree, think the "method" still exists as it's FAST. However they invariably teach the horse to say "NO" very loudly, sure they can ride it out. Its eventual rider owner may not necessarily be able to do so (why would we?!) and the big NO can resurface quite easily from what I've seen. Unfortunately frequently with imported warmbloods and Andalusians.
 
Well...
I dream of being able to sit that- talk about stick bum!

But yeah agreeing with everyone.. what were they doing with that whip object... and why was there not more groundwork done either that or what had happened before!
 
Agree, think the "method" still exists as it's FAST. However they invariably teach the horse to say "NO" very loudly, sure they can ride it out. Its eventual rider owner may not necessarily be able to do so (why would we?!) and the big NO can resurface quite easily from what I've seen. Unfortunately frequently with imported warmbloods and Andalusians.

noobs 31 I would have to agree with this , how many times do you read about this kind of thing, I actually think it happens alot with sec ds as well, these people would not feel the need to post this if not trying to look impressive, I would feel slightly ashamed if I had to post this to a client whose horse I was breaking but that is just me.

My dad has not come from a horsey background, has point to pointed is a pretty forthright northerner no frills, he has a very sticky bum and has ridden some pretty horrible horses, he did not find this impressive and still said showboating and not acceptable to gain kudos and ruin the horse, just what I thought
We have had a few horrors racehorses would we ever have treated them like this when they looked so scared, never. Having the need to post on you tube a situation where a horse looks distressed and is charging around a school is dubious, I break mine in an open field, so this would be a bit of a disaster, to be honest in most cases I think there is no need for it, I also think Equilibrium Ireland is right on what is going on.
 
noobs31 said:
Agree, think the "method" still exists as it's FAST. However they invariably teach the horse to say "NO" very loudly, sure they can ride it out. Its eventual rider owner may not necessarily be able to do so (why would we?!) and the big NO can resurface quite easily from what I've seen. Unfortunately frequently with imported warmbloods and Andalusians.
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Exactly!! I don't suppose it matters so much if you're backing a horse who is going to be taken on by a professional - although I would still abhor it as a way of frying the brain of a 'sensitive' horse - and also the damage that can be done to a horse's back if it's not gently conditioned to taking a rider's weight.

For comparison, here's slow and steady!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wI6MkOXNrl4

This is a little RID mare - quite 'sensitive' for the breed and would NOT have taken kindly to the approach taken by Mr. Sticky Bum! On the day this video was taken she'd been carrying the rider in this very controlled manner for about a week, she'd done 6 weeks of lunging/ground-work before that. It was her first time off the lunge.

5 months on, any reasonable amateur could do ANYTHING with her - she hacks alone or in company, works nicely in the school with other horses, and is an absolute poppet! She's trotting over poles and cross-poles.

Backing is THE most important thing we do with a horse - it sets the stage for its future. With luck, a horse should still be working for at least 15 years AFTER it is backed - so what the hell is the rush!
 
Someone asked about the use of the whip from the ground - aim I believe was to get the horse going forwards.

Forwards impulsion = less up and down impulsion ;-)

Next time your horse gets narky/excited and you hang onto it's mouth and it starts going up and down - think of this video and kick your steed forwards. Hey presto, up and down energy turns into forward energy.
 
JanetGeorge said:
Exactly!! On the day this video was taken she'd been carrying the rider in this very controlled manner for about a week, she'd done 6 weeks of lunging/ground-work before that. It was her first time off the lunge.

Backing is THE most important thing we do with a horse - it sets the stage for its future. With luck, a horse should still be working for at least 15 years AFTER it is backed - so what the hell is the rush!
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My boy is away for backing at the moment. Hes had 5 weeks of ground work,
Every time he had something new on his back - roller or saddle he would bronc about 10 paces. Then stop. The next time the same piece of kit was used, did nothing and accepted it really well. The trainer has sat on him in his stable, he scuttled at first, but no problem.

However, the trainer knew that when the time came to ride him out of the stable, he would bronc for 10 steps, and then accept everything.

And yes , he did exactly what the trainer expected. bronc 10 steps, then went straight in to a lovely trot, a couple of 20 meter circles and absolutely fine.

Hes been ridden the rest of the week, and has accepted everything perfectly well.

Hes been well brought up ( if i do say so myself:)) and in every way is a very good boy. Well mannered and very gentle.

So, in my limited experience, they can react when a rider gets on board for the first time, even with the right groundwork !
 
Asha said:
However, the trainer knew that when the time came to ride him out of the stable, he would bronc for 10 steps, and then accept everything.

And yes , he did exactly what the trainer expected. bronc 10 steps, then went straight in to a lovely trot, a couple of 20 meter circles and absolutely fine.

Hes been ridden the rest of the week, and has accepted everything perfectly well.

Hes been well brought up ( if i do say so myself:)) and in every way is a very good boy. Well mannered and very gentle.

So, in my limited experience, they can react when a rider gets on board for the first time, even with the right groundwork !
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It could probably still have been avoided. We had one (by Jazz!!) who was incredibly reactive, although with him it was bolt rather than buck! We rode him in the stable for a week, and he was then led out the door for 5 steps, then 10 steps, then 15 steps etc. He then went out on led hacks, with the leader progressively taking LESS control and the rider taking more. When he finally was taken to the manege at the end of a led hack out and was let out on the lunge he STILL took off - but only for a few strides because he'd learned to 'whoa' to the rider's aids.

It jus takes LOTS more time! Thankfully his owner was prepared for it to take time, because she knew her horse and what a little wimp he could be!:D
 
JanetGeorge said:
It could probably still have been avoided. We had one (by Jazz!!) who was incredibly reactive, although with him it was bolt rather than buck! We rode him in the stable for a week, and he was then led out the door for 5 steps, then 10 steps, then 15 steps etc. He then went out on led hacks, with the leader progressively taking LESS control and the rider taking more. When he finally was taken to the manege at the end of a led hack out and was let out on the lunge he STILL took off - but only for a few strides because he'd learned to 'whoa' to the rider's aids.

It jus takes LOTS more time! Thankfully his owner was prepared for it to take time, because she knew her horse and what a little wimp he could be!:D
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I can assure you I never put a time limit on my boys education either.
 
I'm amazed and saddened by how many people on here condone or are impressed by this. I have a wb mare that came from holland. I wasn't aware of this sort of "breaking" but if I had been it would have explained so much. As soon as you got on her she had to be sent into trot, if you asked her to walk she would bronc or rear. She had no idea what so ever about any aids. If she got something wrong she would freak out. She was jumping but was terrified of the jumps so would launch herself at them and over jump hugely. It's taken me 2 years and she is now the sweetest mare. She's hot and will always be more of a pro ride really but I can happily ride and compete her and I'm only 5'3 and weigh 8 stone, she's a chunky 16.3. she tries for you every time and is totally happy to have a rider on her back. She's gone from being a chronic box walker to enjoying a daily afternoon snooze. It used to take 2 people about 20 mins to bridle her, now she lowers her head.
After watching that video I can't believe that anyone would think that was an acceptable way to break a horse. Anyone could see it was terrified. He might not be ruining it's mouth but he's quite possibly ruining it's back and it's brain.
 
Countrychic said:
I'm amazed and saddened by how many people on here condone or are impressed by this. I have a wb mare that came from holland. I wasn't aware of this sort of "breaking" but if I had been it would have explained so much. As soon as you got on her she had to be sent into trot, if you asked her to walk she would bronc or rear. She had no idea what so ever about any aids. If she got something wrong she would freak out. She was jumping but was terrified of the jumps so would launch herself at them and over jump hugely. It's taken me 2 years and she is now the sweetest mare. She's hot and will always be more of a pro ride really but I can happily ride and compete her and I'm only 5'3 and weigh 8 stone, she's a chunky 16.3. she tries for you every time and is totally happy to have a rider on her back. She's gone from being a chronic box walker to enjoying a daily afternoon snooze. It used to take 2 people about 20 mins to bridle her, now she lowers her head.
After watching that video I can't believe that anyone would think that was an acceptable way to break a horse. Anyone could see it was terrified. He might not be ruining it's mouth but he's quite possibly ruining it's back and it's brain.
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I have an 8 year old Dutch horse who still has some residual issues from his "light Backing" at 3 years old shortly before I bought him! And STILL he gets really worried if he does not get something right.

Had I been aware of what a "light backing" in Holland consisted (being ridden in draw reins predominatly!!!) of I would have bought unbacked and saved myself a lot of heartache, time and money!

edited to add very impressive jockey but not at all impressive training practices!
 
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