Epsm/pssm?

[Tiarella]

If you post his diet and routine we can probably give you more pointers. I must say I read your other post about him and thought hmmm but you do start wondering if you're getting obsessed so I didn't mention it!

My horse is sensitive to wormers and will not be right for a couple of days after worming, so now I don't worm her. That's not to say you shouldn't worm yours but more that things like wormers can make them symptomatic for sure.

Thanks for your reply FW.

I bought him in November and did 4 months of walk to build him up. Increased exercise March time and increased it again end of April (interval training 3/4 times a week and walk road hacking 2 times a week and 1 school/jump lesson) and is now pretty fit. Haven't really done anything other than walk past 3 weeks as felt so dodgy. Tucked up in the mornings, okay after turn out.

Turned out during day (as over night turn out makes him footy due to length of time being out) on a grazed down tiny paddock of unfortunately dairy/beef grazing. Adlib soaked hay 24/7 in paddock and stable and fed handful of hifi molasses free, feedmark benevit advance supp (in process of changing to forage plus) and suppleaze gold.

Is it worth doing the blood test before and after ridden as already it's becoming pricey or is there another way I can find out? Vet said he is more than double what he should be, but not in the thousands.

 

[FfionWinnie]

You could do the hair test with animal genetics (pull it yourself from tail) for £30 for type 1. Type 2 is a bit more difficult as it needs a muscle biopsy at the moment. There is a company in America who reckon they have now got a test for type 2 but it's not available from the UK as yet as far as I know.

Personally I would stop the benevit as it contains maize and linseed, linseed is often said to be safe but plenty of horses can't tolerate it.

Hi fi molasses free I am fairly certain contains wheat feed and oat feed so I would check and if so, cut that as well.

He sounds like he may be very sensitive to grass which makes it difficult as being stabled is really not ideal either.

 

[Tiarella]

You could do the hair test with animal genetics (pull it yourself from tail) for £30 for type 1. Type 2 is a bit more difficult as it needs a muscle biopsy at the moment. There is a company in America who reckon they have now got a test for type 2 but it's not available from the UK as yet as far as I know.

Personally I would stop the benevit as it contains maize and linseed, linseed is often said to be safe but plenty of horses can't tolerate it.

Hi fi molasses free I am fairly certain contains wheat feed and oat feed so I would check and if so, cut that as well.

He sounds like he may be very sensitive to grass which makes it difficult as being stabled is really not ideal either.

Is it not at all diagnosed from bloods then? Seems a bit of a waste doing bloods for them to turn round and say muscle biopsy.

From what I've read (mostly on here) it is manageable and currently wondering whether to just start the management now and see if he improves.

Would it benefit him more if i just stop giving him a bucket feed and see if anything changes?

Yes he has cracking event lines so possibility of having lami before so extra careful, but do give him a little new grass each day. As good as my yard owners are I'm not sure they'd agree to set up a track system or hard standing area for me on their land lol

 

[be positive]

I have a livery that I guessed was suffering from PSSM so rather than get her tested I took advice, by pm on here, and we put her onto alcar and vit e, she was already on a low sugar/ starch diet with plenty of turnout and daily exercise , to see how she responded, within 1 week there was improvement to her movement, now 2 months on she is a different horse, her muscles are soft but building up more correctly, her attitude has changed and she can now move like she should without the slight tension she previously showed, her symptoms were very subtle but the change has been remarkable.
The outlay for the treatment is around £150 but it lasts several months and has been successful enough to mean she will stay on it.

 

[FfionWinnie]

There is different management for each muscle myopathy. The cheapest one to rule in or out is type 1. This is what my horse has. Type 2 and RER and lesser known ones, are a biopsy. I believe your vet is doing an exercise test which isn't going tell you anything you don't already know really. Personally I would test for type 1. If that is negative I would attempt to manage it as type 2 and if that didn't help I would then do the biopsy.

I would stop giving him the new grass and try and keep him outside on hay all the time if possible.

I would start him on natural vitamin e, I use Equimins natural vit e oil. It's not cheap but it works. Feed 5-10mls which is 5000-10000iu per day depending on his size and symptoms. I feed 5000iu at the moment but I am contemplating trying to reduce this as she is going very well.

Try to exercise him the same every day with lots of walking first. Keep him warm.

Make sure no one is treating him to anything high sugar or starch / he doesn't have access to any molassed licks etc.

You could also try him on alcar. I feed one tbsp per day. Also feed 2 tbsp salt. I don't feed mag ox but you probably should consider it. It's not easy to over dose on that anyway. It makes my horse have dry skin and she doesn't appear to be any different without it hence I stopped it. As your horse is not well, you want to try all the (suitable!) supplements available to try and improve his muscle health.

Be suspicious of everything that goes in his mouth. Ultimately none of these things will harm him if he doesn't have it, it's a healthy way to keep any horse. If he does have it, it is not the end of the world.
Daisy has ber own FB page now where you can see she leads as normal a life as any horse and is just amazing frankly www.facebook.com/TeamSuperCob if you fancy a look. She's the little coloured one not the blond bimbo

 

[ycbm]

Is it not at all diagnosed from bloods then? Seems a bit of a waste doing bloods for them to turn round and say muscle biopsy.

From what I've read (mostly on here) it is manageable and currently wondering whether to just start the management now and see if he improves.

Would it benefit him more if i just stop giving him a bucket feed and see if anything changes?

Yes he has cracking event lines so possibility of having lami before so extra careful, but do give him a little new grass each day. As good as my yard owners are I'm not sure they'd agree to set up a track system or hard standing area for me on their land lol

The diagnosis for most EPSM/PSSM horses, certainly most with type 2, is positive response to the EPSM diet. My vet recently suggested blood testing mine after heavy exercise. I asked him what the point was when, after treatment for EPSM h they are both completely normal horses. He agreed that it would not help at all

I'd save your money and do what FW says.

 

[Tiarella]

Wow thank you everyone for such great advice

I will give vet a call tomorrow and discuss what my plan of action is. Hopefully she will be supportive and not rinse my bank account even more! Will deffo send off hair sample though.

Where shall I go from here though? Feed/exercise wise? He was in 'medium' work before this happened and has only walked since.

 

[FfionWinnie]

You'll need to play it by ear really. I would implement the changes and see what happens in the next few days. It takes 24 hours for things to affect my horse, good or bad. She needs to work hard every day to keep her right, but I built up to that from walking after she had a catastrophic tie up just after I bought her. She hasn't had one since but has been mildly symptomatic until I got the diet spot on.

Things I consider very safe are coolstance copra and alfalfa pellets. The latter being much lower in NSC than grass pellets. Other than hay, that is all she eats.

Is he hesitant/unbalanced when walking down hills?

 

[Tiarella]

You'll need to play it by ear really. I would implement the changes and see what happens in the next few days. It takes 24 hours for things to affect my horse, good or bad. She needs to work hard every day to keep her right, but I built up to that from walking after she had a catastrophic tie up just after I bought her. She hasn't had one since but has been mildly symptomatic until I got the diet spot on.

Things I consider very safe are coolstance copra and alfalfa pellets. The latter being much lower in NSC than grass pellets. Other than hay, that is all she eats.

Is he hesitant/unbalanced when walking down hills?

Are pssm horses ever able to be 'normal horses' - I wanted mine to be an all rounder, but at affiliated level -elem+ dressage and workers too. He seemed very talented and easy to train until this episode

My EP said cool stance copra is good so will give it a whirl and order supps tomorrow too. In the back of my mind I have been thinking pssm for a few weeks but with such a large worm burden it was difficult to distinguish what the problem actually was. Still awaiting results for WEC as this may be a separate problem.

Nope, always a confident boy down hills - I do my interval training up/down an incline and always fine.

 

[ycbm]

I have two and they are both totally 'normal'. They eat grass, don't get exercised every day and are happy boys. Unless I remove either their vitamin E or their alcar, in which case they go solid in three days. Mine aren't as bad as other cases, the disease is what I've heard called a spectrum disorder, with some horses suffering worse than others.

Good luck with yours.

 

[Booboos]

I was looking for answers for another horse when I came across EPSM a few years ago and on a whim I took Freddy off all sugars (had previously tested for everything under the sun, e.g. back, neck, lameness, ulcers, etc.). There was an immediate improvement which has only gotten better with time. Since learning more I have experimented with supplements and he's now on vit E, magnesium, ALCAR, salt and Cool stance copra. Freddy does really well on grass but I know other horses cannot tolerate it all so it's a bit hit and miss.

I've never had him tested as he is doing so well on the diet I wouldn't change anything. When they roll out the hair test for P2 I'll get it done but in the meanwhile I assume that's what it is.

The difference in him is staggering. He has gone from being thin, weak, poorly muscled, lazy, lacking in impulsion and hind leg power, nappy, unwilling and grumpy to being forward going, supple and happy. Today he strode out on a hack on the buckle leaving the other horse behind, our usual hack before was spent more stopping and reversing than moving forwards.

 

[Tiarella]

I'm awaiting a call from the vets this afternoon about his worm results and originally pencilled in to do blood tests before/after ridden tomorrow morning - I'm still debating whether to go ahead with this knowing he is quite clearly a pssm horse. I lunged him yesterday morning, tucked up in stable pm and still tucked up this morning after being out at night which was stupid of me to do so as he is now a little footy with pulses but I couldn't leave him in any longer being tucked up.

It's just strange his only symptom is being tucked up and grotty to ride. Do you think this will be the start of things to come if I don't manage it asap?

Is it worth doing bloods to see what sort of levels his enzymes are? He has never actually tied up yet.

 

[FfionWinnie]

All the bloods will tell you is there is a problem with his muscle enzymes.

That call out and bloods cost will be the same as a bottle of vit e oil! What are you going to do with the info once you know the enzyme levels? Ask the vet that question, how will knowing what they are on that one day, help you manage the horse. Unless the vet comes up with something amazing that this knowledge will provide, then management and diet are the only ways to sort the horse out so no, I personally wouldn't bother at this stage. The hair test is a definitive answer and the cheapest way to find out if it's PSSM 1 or not.

Does he improve with exercise?

I would be more concerned there is something else wrong with him than I would be interested in doing the exercise test tbh.

Is he shod?

 

[Tiarella]

All the bloods will tell you is there is a problem with his muscle enzymes.

That call out and bloods cost will be the same as a bottle of vit e oil! What are you going to do with the info once you know the enzyme levels? Ask the vet that question, how will knowing what they are on that one day, help you manage the horse. Unless the vet comes up with something amazing that this knowledge will provide, then management and diet are the only ways to sort the horse out so no, I personally wouldn't bother at this stage. The hair test is a definitive answer and the cheapest way to find out if it's PSSM 1 or not.

Does he improve with exercise?

I would be more concerned there is something else wrong with him than I would be interested in doing the exercise test tbh.

Is he shod?

I did think that when I saw the price of the vit e!! I bought a connie in the hope he'd be cheap/easy to keep haha!

Bit difficult to say with regards to exercise as before this occurred he was doing decent amount of work and then when he started tucking up I stopped work and just walked a few times a week as thought it was worms causing pain. At the moment he is really too uncomfortable to be ridden in more than walk but have lunged him a few times as he is becoming fresh and sharp.

He is barefoot

 

[FfionWinnie]

My laypersons guess is that if he has PSSM what has happened is the grass has come through causing him to have pain which has caused you to back off the exercise (because naturally you would!) however with PSSM exercise is what keeps them well.

His feet are telling you he is very sensitive to grass sugars so it could follow that his muscles are too.

When Daisy had time off for an abscess (so she hardly moved despite being outside) she felt hideous when I got back on. It took two days of decent work before she felt right again, and she is managed to the enth degree.

Disclaimer before Moomin comes along to scold me for diagnosing your horse, I am not diagnosing your horse I am suggesting other diagnostics may be money better spent.

 

[Tiarella]

My laypersons guess is that if he has PSSM what has happened is the grass has come through causing him to have pain which has caused you to back off the exercise (because naturally you would!) however with PSSM exercise is what keeps them well.

His feet are telling you he is very sensitive to grass sugars so it could follow that his muscles are too.

When Daisy had time off for an abscess (so she hardly moved despite being outside) she felt hideous when I got back on. It took two days of decent work before she felt right again, and she is managed to the enth degree.

Disclaimer before Moomin comes along to scold me for diagnosing your horse, I am not diagnosing your horse I am suggesting other diagnostics may be money better spent.

LOL!!!! Well it all adds up and people on this forum/internet seem to have a better understanding than vets do. It's been playing in the back of my mind for a while but obviously the worms were a major issue too.

Next question...how do I manage a pony that potentially needs to be out 24/7, on no grass yet we have masses of lush dairy grass(Warwickshire based - every field is like it).... I'm not sure my yard owners would appreciate me making a hard standing area, or a track lol. At the moment he is out in own paddock with grass eaten right down but fence moved daily. Did use a muzzle for a bit but he ate it...not even joking!

 

[FfionWinnie]

Is there no where there already that is grassless, bit of concrete or stoned area. Daisy's area is not particularly large but it's large enough and I exercise her every single day too. Another thing I meant to mention is for her at least, lunging isn't hard enough work. Even leading off my other horse is not really sufficient if I do it more than 2 days in a row. She really needs me riding her and cantering her under saddle to burn off the glycogen properly.

 

[Tiarella]

Just spoke to vet and first was insistent on bloods but once discussed they are happy for me to trial him as a pssm and see what happens

So my management will change from this evening. 24/7 turn out in bare paddock with soaked hay. Will buy copra from local feed merchant and order vit e oil from equimins. Where do I get mag ox and alcar from? Links would be grateful.

Vet advised exercise to be consistent and moderate.

Will see what happens

 

[FfionWinnie]

Yes it needs to be moderate to start with as he's been off, and increase gradually but once fit the same amount every day. Any time off you need to start them back just walking. I haven't been able to work Daisy properly recently as I broke my ribs so if she had a day off I did even more walking before any faster work. I always do ten mins walking at either end, minimum.

I get alcar from myprotein.com and you can get 99.8% I think it is mag ox (human grade) from progressive earth. Table salt from tesco.

Copra is not particularly palatable to some horses so it might take him a while to believe it's food.

 

[ycbm]

If you have an agricultural merchant near you the cheapest magnesium oxide is calcined magnesite, sold as calmag for cows, £15 for 25kg. I feed de- icing salt. You need to make sure it's pure salt, but again very cheap for a 25 kg bag.


Will you let us know the result?

 

[Tiarella]

Thanks for all your help guys, I will of course keep you updated as I'm sure there will be many questions to ask.

With the correct diet and exercise when will I start to notice a change?

 

[ycbm]

With mine it was only days before I felt the hamstrings begin to relax, and that spread into all the major muscle groups over three months until the maximum muscle relaxation was reached. One was lame behind, very slightly, and that disappeared in two weeks. The other was stamping his feet because of the muscle pain and he stopped that immediately.

I've seen an increase in foot quality in both this year but especially in one, and I've changed nothing else than the EPSM treatment so I'm thinking that this is due to their freer movements as well.

 

[Tiarella]

Also, could I please just confirm how much of each supp I should feed for a 14.2 weighing 460kg. I really want to be very strict (possibly over strict!) with management at the moment.

 

[FfionWinnie]

Keep a diary and log everything you do and when. All horses are different. Daisy responds very quickly. Within 24 hours good or bad.

I feed Daisy 5000iu vit e oil. 2 tbsp table salt, 1 tbsp alcar. She's 14.2 but weighs over 500kg (weigh bridge). The amount of mag you feed will depend on the quality you buy. That's why I buy the expensive stuff as it means you use less and it's a fine powder so more palatable.

 

[ycbm]

10g alcar

20g magnesium oxide

30g salt

5,000 iu natural vitamin E



That would be my start point for your horse. Ffion has a more severe case, she may have other recommendations.


Do you know what the selenium status of your forage is? If it is low, you will need to supplement that too. I blood test for selenium because it's a dangerous mineral to overdose and the rda is tiny.

 

[Tiarella]

Perfect, thank you both!

I have no idea about selenium - i have read bits and pieces but not sure if our forage has any (it's a livery yard so not sure I can just hi round testing their land) but it's thick lush dairy grass. I obviously have him on a completely grazed down tiny section and soaked hay - will that make a difference?

 

[ycbm]

I honestly don't know, sorry. I know my land is low and I have to supplement a half dose of the RDA. I'd recommend a blood test if you can afford it, they are usually quite sensitive to low selenium levels. The other way to do it would be to feed the base dose of a vitamin E and selenium supplement and then add the rest of the 5000in that you need with pure vitamin E.

Progressive Earth sell a natural vitamin E and selenium powder that would work, then top up with Equimins oil, maybe?

 

[FfionWinnie]

http://mapapps2.bgs.ac.uk/ukso/home.html?

If this doesn't work you'll need to work the map yourself, it will show the selenium levels over England and Wales. Useless to me but should help you to a degree.

Doesn't work but does take you to the map. If you press the bottom left button then the back button actually on the map you get the option of selenium eventually if you press the right buttons.

 

[Tiarella]

Thanks FW will have a look at map tomorrow as not working on iPhone.

Really stupid question but what's 5000iu in ml...my plan was to use medicine pots to measure the supps

 

[FfionWinnie]

5mls. I already said that at least once

I use a dentinox syringe. I made the hole bigger. It's easy in the summer with any old syringe but in the winter if it's cold you need a bigger bore.