Epsm/pssm?

[Tiarella]

5mls. I already said that at least once

I use a dentinox syringe. I made the hole bigger. It's easy in the summer with any old syringe but in the winter if it's cold you need a bigger bore.

It's hard to take it all in! I've learnt a whole new part of the horsey world today haha!

5ml?! That's a tiny amount! Don't feel so bad now spending £89 on vit e

 

[FfionWinnie]

It's hard to take it all in! I've learnt a whole new part of the horsey world today haha!

5ml?! That's a tiny amount! Don't feel so bad now spending £89 on vit e

Yes it will last you nearly 6 months at that dose. I might feed more to start with tho. If you do any blood tests get the e level checked too.

 

[Tiarella]

See what you mean about the coolstance copra....he sniffed it, pulled a face and walked off. Left it in paddock in the hope having no grass he will be tempted by it eventually!

Ordered vit e oil and alcar, but not magnesium yet. Is it worth a try without mag or is it a vital supp (I know you don't feed it FW)

 

[FfionWinnie]

Daisy only eats copra if there are alfalfa pellets in it too. Hard to say re the mag. You might want to get him used to eating things one at a time if he's going to be fussy. The vit e is the most important for muscle health but mag ox does also play a part. Alcar is utterly disgusting as well but strangely a lot of horses don't seem to mind it.

Personally I would want to try it all, over the last 16 months I've tried stuff, cut stuff out, tried other stuff and now I feel I am at a point where the horse is completely normal. She has absolutely no symptoms and leads a completely normal life (minus grass). The problem with PSSM is you don't know how many symptoms they have til you get them the best they can be. Some horses are always affected to a degree, I am lucky that Daisy can be managed well and be completely normal. I'm also lucky I can keep her at home in optimum conditions and have enough flexibility in life to provide her with the right exercise etc etc. Not everyone can provide that nor would want to.

Even things like walking more slowly on the way out than the way home. You would put that down to the horse being keen to return home. Well since I've got her perfectly managed, she is no different on the way out. I always knew it was down to PSSM but I thought that was an acceptable symptom and I didn't know I could get rid of it until I did!

 

[Tiarella]

Good idea, I will try vit e and alcar first and see if he will eat it with copra.

I rode him today just in walk round the fields and he didn't feel too bad, will keep gently walking until supps arrive. Although exercising everyday seems rather daunting with a very demanding full time job and only use of the school in the winter, but hopefully it'll be managed by then, if it is pssm!

 

[FfionWinnie]

If he won't eat the copra give him a tiny feed separately of something he will with the supps in it. Alfa oil might do.

It is daunting but I've yet to have a ride I didn't enjoy and that was a whole Scottish winter where it never stopped raining and I don't have a school

 

[burtie]

Mine has EPSM but on the strict diet and daily exercise you would hardly know, he does still have mild shivers and has never been shod behind but luckily has excellent feet. It took a couple of years to get his diet just right and what works for some may not for others.

He does have no bagged hard feed except a small amount of fast fibre in summer to give the oil and vet e supplement in! In the winter I may add some pure grass nuts and more oil to help maintain weight. I am lucky in that he is fine on lots of longish well grown grass, but no good when the grass gets down and is very short. In the winter he must have 24hr soaked hay so we struggle with weight, but he is stabled overnight.

In the summer he lives out 24/7 and is much better!

I try and ride at least 5 times a week in summer and try and get him doing something every day when he's is stabled overnight in winter. I find daily excerise by far the best thing, but if he's havig a stiff day I do ask for much less.

Also warm up and warm down is VERY important, I always allow a min 25 mins warm up before doing anything more engaged.

Managing him this way has meant I can still ride out, and compete, he even jumps in the summer quite happily!

 

[skint1]

I'm really beginning to wonder about my boy, this thread has been very instructive

 

[Leo Walker]

I'm really beginning to wonder about my boy, this thread has been very instructive

me too!

 

[Tiarella]

It's been a really informative and interesting thread for me too

I do wonder if many horses are misdiagnosed with the wrong condition when it is in fact pssm.

Will keep my updates on this thread for people interested

 

[Tiarella]

I'm not sure if this is linked in any way....

But my boy is the worlds most chilled 5yo, I've had him 6 months and he has never spooked or got wound up, but still off the leg.

Rode him yday round the fields in morning as normal and he wouldn't walk, just kept trotting wanting to get faster and faster and kept spooking/spinning at nothing and got in a terrible state.

I have taken all grass away, just has soaked hay in paddock, had copra for 2 meals and added the vit e and alcar(God that stinks!) to last nights dinner for first time.

Muscle wise he actually felt okay but still tucked up. Just seems strange he has completely changed personalities.

 

[ycbm]

Before I realised that my second one had it, he started running away in the middle of schooling exercises. He'd been fine since I broke him at four. See what the diet does, you should know soon. My alcar doesn't smell, but it tastes very bitter. The horse seem to like it though.

 

[Tiarella]

Hmmm interesting, do I carry on riding him? I was wondering if this is where the magnesium comes into play?

I bought the liquid form of alcar, nearly blew me away when I opened it - no wonder the poor horse thinks I'm poisoning him.

 

[ycbm]

I feed magnesium anyway, for barefoot, so it wasn't that with mine. Yes, he needs the exercise to get rid of the glycogen stored in his muscles. Maybe lunge for safety, and take everything slowly if he's hurting.

 

[Tiarella]

I feed magnesium anyway, for barefoot, so it wasn't that with mine. Yes, he needs the exercise to get rid of the glycogen stored in his muscles. Maybe lunge for safety, and take everything slowly if he's hurting.

Yes will lunge first to take the edge off - I want my chilled bombproof pony back!

The vet said consistent but moderate exercise. I'm sure everyone's moderate is different but do I go back to what we were doing before all this happened? What do I do with regards to like lessons and things like that :s Do I just wait and see what happens now he is on the correct diet?

Did either of your horses actually tie up properly?

 

[paddy555]

Did either of your horses actually tie up properly?

mine did. He actually went down with a rider on, He was massively spooky for no reason before treatment, after going on the diet and the rest of the management regime (which is just as important as the diet to him) he is OK, totally different. Doesn't spook, now he is comfortable he has become very keen.

 

[Tiarella]

mine did. He actually went down with a rider on, He was massively spooky for no reason before treatment, after going on the diet and the rest of the management regime (which is just as important as the diet to him) he is OK, totally different. Doesn't spook, now he is comfortable he has become very keen.

Oh dear, that's what I worry about, mine hasn't tied up but will he? Hopefully I've started to manage it before he actually does. He is quite hard to read as such a level headed horse, but maybe this sharp/spookiness is trying to tell me something. Guess I will just have to see what happens in the coming weeks.

 

[Booboos]

Some people on the FB group report that their horses went loopy on ALCAR so that's something to keep in mind. The specific diet seems to vary a little bit from horse to horse. I'd add one thing at a time and wait a few weeks to see what effect they have.

As for exercise I ride mine 5 days a week. The day after his two day rest he is always worse but with the diet/supplements still quite good even then. I always do 20 minutes in walk, after which I do a quick trot and go quite soon for a fast (as fast as possible!) canter on both reins. Then he is able to work.

 

[Tiarella]

Just went to give him his morning soaked hay and he looks bloody dreadful this morning in paddock 24/7 but probs the most tucked up I've ever seen him.

I feel awful riding him

 

[Tiarella]

Think I may just be impatient, but has been on diet for 5 days, out 24/7, with no grass, plenty of soaked hay. No change, still tucked up in mornings having a slight 'feel sorry for myself' moment as this isn't exactly the summer I had envisioned.

 

[FfionWinnie]

Is he perhaps cold in the mornings? I am worried there is something else going on with your horse to be honest. The problem with PSSM is that the symptoms make you want to back off the exercise which does make them worse. HOWEVER no one can sit at a computer telling you the horse definitely has PSSM and that is my worry, if he does, I would work him harder for sure but we don't know he does and I think I would be worried! Have you sent tail hair to animal genetics yet?

What has the vet ruled out at this stage?

 

[ycbm]

I am worried there is something else going on with your horse to be honest.

This, sorry

 

[Tiarella]

Is he perhaps cold in the mornings? I am worried there is something else going on with your horse to be honest. The problem with PSSM is that the symptoms make you want to back off the exercise which does make them worse. HOWEVER no one can sit at a computer telling you the horse definitely has PSSM and that is my worry, if he does, I would work him harder for sure but we don't know he does and I think I would be worried! Have you sent tail hair to animal genetics yet?

What has the vet ruled out at this stage?

I have been keeping a light weight on him 24/7 at the moment and does always feel warm underneath. I've worked him everyday since I've started his supps, but he is just so spooky and leapy to ride. (this horse has been bombproof for the 6 months I've had him).

I've sent tail hair off and waiting for reply.

All we know is he deffo now doesn't have worms which is what the original 'diagnosis' was. Vets wanted to do blood tests before and after ridden due to high muscle enzymes count but I said I would address diet/management first to see if that makes a difference.

I would upload a pic if I could - or if anyone is on FB I can send it through there

 

[FfionWinnie]

Message me pics on my FB page TeamSuperCob.

 

[paddy555]

agree he could have anything however one last thing you can try is to leave out the alcar. It can make some horses very high. Just give him a diet of copra, alfalfa nuts, micro linseed (if you are using it) vit e (8000iu) salt, magox and your supplement. After 3 days I would expect the alcar to have worn off. Is he any better then? Try putting a MW rug on at night, LW in the daytime and exercise sheet when ridden. (yes, know it is June!)

When I started trying to sort mine we thought he had RER before the blood tests showed no improvement. I started working him in hand leading around the roads and worked up to an hour a day (every day) before riding again

If you cut out the alcar and do that is he still spooky? With mine I "managed" him with just vit E, the rest of the diet and slow exercise. That got rid of the spookiness, put the muscle on, got rid of the looking tucked up etc and made him happy. What it didn't do was get rid of the almost "laziness" "slowness" the alcar resolved that.

sorry I haven't re read everything but how much vit E are you feeding. I remember you are feeding liquid alcar? I know nothing about that and wonder if it could be a problem compared to the powder?

I think everything with this is adapting management. Mine doesn't work as hard as FW's but he does longer slower rides. (daily) that is what suits him.

I think that if you work around these management ideas and are having no further success in the next week I would be asking the vet for some help.

 

[FfionWinnie]

Never heard of liquid alcar. Link?

As I said a few pages back, alcar doesn't work for every horse. One reason being it can send some scatty. The oil diet is an option because horses process fat differently to sugars so don't despair yet, what works for one won't always work for another but the basics are to keep things simple, not panic and analyse everything.

Every success I've had with mine is through trial and error. It took a while to get to optimum.

Is he tucked up later in the day after exercise or is he better after exercise?

I would put a heavier rug on over night and see what happens.

 

[ITPersonnage]

Might be jumping to the wrong conclusion here but when I read "liquid alcar" I assumed you meant the L-Car that I bought initially. Had no effect on mine at all so I switched to the powder which I think did help. I think I bought L-Car from Equimins... http://www.equimins-online.com/all-products/81-equimins-l-carnitine-liquid.html
I'm afraid I have no link for the powder. Best of luck.

 

[FfionWinnie]

If it is that you've bought, that isn't alcar. Alcar is acetyl l carnitine available from myprotein.com

I wasn't aware Equimins sold that, it can be fed with a high fat diet but it's not the same as alcar.

Also I can't read the label to see if it has anything else in but it could have sugars in it to make it more palatable.

 

[paddy555]

http://www.bulkpowders.co.uk/acetyl-l-carnitine.html

this is the alcar I use. I am sure it is not the cheapest however it works for mine so I cannot change.

 

[BBP]

Hi Tiarella, I'm not sure if I've missed something as phone is messing about when I try to read back the old posts. What is it that makes you think your horse has PSSM? When he was blood tested exactly which enzymes were elevated? Did you have full blood work done? AST links to liver function as well as muscle damage, were his liver enzymes normal and just the muscle enzymes raised? CK is more specific to muscle I believe but more reactive, so quick to reduce compared to AST. Injury or illness can also cause a raise in enzymes depending on the stress it puts on the muscles. My horse has RER (another type of muscle myopathy but completely different cause so the management is similar but with some significant differences) unlikely to be the case with yours as you say he's level headed but worth bearing other conditions in mind instead of or as well as PSSM. Ulcers made mine miserable going forwards, hayfever made him insane. But I sidetrack, what I came on to say was that my horse had raised AST and raised liver enzymes which complicated the understanding of what the problem was.