Equiblock....oh dear.....

Note the wording MAY and OFTEN in my post.

I did NOT say it was written in stone that it leaves a marker!

I'll swear people read every 2nd or 3rd word of other people's post then respond with total inane chunnering.
 
There is always the outside possibility of the riders being chilli addicts and sweating over their horses in the heat and it being absorbed that way??

Now thinking of tootling off the supermarket to stick chillis in my horses tendon boots... well will make a change from carpet gripper
grin.gif
grin.gif
grin.gif
 
Maybe he shouldnt be jumping his horse if its got a sore back and needs that type of product anyway, regardless of what's in it. You'd think being an Irish rider and what happened with Cian O'Connor at Athens, he (and his back up team) would be more diligent than ever!
 
Exactly Lillo!

And if I were grooming or competing at the Olympics I would be phoning the manufacturers of every product I intended to take with me to double check there were no banned substances.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Exactly Lillo!

And if I were grooming or competing at the Olympics I would be phoning the manufacturers of every product I intended to take with me to double check there were no banned substances.

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly, its not rocket science!!!!!!!!!
 
interestingly i went to dinner tonight with a friend who is well into equine research, its their job and she said the horses tested for both blood and urine, which one might not expect in a topical application, particularly in horses that have tested clean so soon before. unless their were factors like the horses getting a little dehydrated in the heat and humidity which would concentrate the sample somewhat and giive a false reading. Or that the substance wasnt applied locally (i.e. to the shins or coronet bands) but was an ingredient in something much more innocent like a wash or shampoo.
she also thought that the same test results for four horses from four separate teams was worth looking into. she thought as the results were known before the end of the contest all the others should have been tested subsequently. ity they didnt IMO.
 
except that it isnt because its not the product thats banned but one of the ingredients, which is not the same thing. i am assuming cruiseline that you have seen the list of banned substances, it is extremely long and full of scientific names and so there fore quite easy to miss one of them. Thats what you have team vet and FEI officials for i would hope, checking the list you have to provide of everything you are taking. as i keep saying what about the three other horses involved? have any of them mentioned equiblock specifically.
i am an experienced competition groom, known for being slightly anal about being aware of products that test but i dont usually read all the ingredients if it says it is guaranteed to not to test. particualrly the ones that say FEI or Jockey Club approved.
 
Sorry I should have worded that a little better, equiblock is a product that is known to contain substances which are banned by the FEI. We all know about it in the far flung corners of the Middle East.

This argument could, to be quite honest, go on for ever!!!

The teams, riders etc. that are involved with this doping incident are not at your local riding club level, they are top professional, international competitors that have been in the business for many years. Yes it is the responsibility of the whole team to make sure that horses competing in FEI competitions are clear of banned substances. I know for a fact that there were vets along with all the teams concerned, it is the riders responsibility to get advise from the team vet for any product that might be used on a horse. Vets do know what the list of banned substances are, after all that is one of the reasons they are sent over with teams. If the vets for the teams concerned were not aware, then a more professional vet should have been allocated to go. However, that is assuming that the riders told the vets what products they were using in the first place.

As a groom at international competitions, I assume you follow the instructions of your rider, team manager or team vet. I do not think for one minute that a groom has applied a product to a horse without being told to. To be honest, I don't know very many groom that read bottles, lotion or cream ingredients as part of their daily routine.

Also the statement on the product says, will not test!!!!!! It does not say in which country it will not test. In America horses are allowed to race on Bute and Lasix

This is a copy of an add for the product:-

Equiblock Pain Relief
Part Number: MIRA0300066
Weight: 0.62 lbs

Highly effective specifically formulated gel to manage pain from serious injury. safe effective and easy to apply. temporary relief of minor aches and pains in joints tendons muscles and ligaments or due to overexertion injury or arthritis pain.

Product Details
Apply an even amount to the area of lameness 1 to 3 times daily; circle entire joint stifle fetlock hock or other area as needed. wear disposable gloves or wash hands thoroughly after each application.
Black
Capsaicin .025%

http://www.cheappetstore.com/Horses/Heal...n-Relief-35459/

It clearly states that the product contains Capsaicin
 
[ QUOTE ]


As a groom at international competitions, I assume you follow the instructions of your rider, team manager or team vet. I do not think for one minute that a groom has applied a product to a horse without being told to. To be honest, I don't know very many groom that read bottles, lotion or cream ingredients as part of their daily routine.



[/ QUOTE ]

to be fair most of the grooms i know are more cued up than the riders and most will query anyhting they are not sure about, because we know its us who will ultimately be blamed. The best grooms read every bottle, label and leaflet, to the annoyance of some riders i can tell you who seem to think we are not professionals who will just start using anything and maybe ruining our careers/reputations.
Having read your post though i would be intersted to hear what Cefyl and Weevil think of the amount of the substance in equiblock, a quarter of a percent seems very low, obvoiously enough to test but surely not enough to influence performance?
 
[ QUOTE ]
As a groom at international competitions, I assume you follow the instructions of your rider, team manager or team vet. I do not think for one minute that a groom has applied a product to a horse without being told to. To be honest, I don't know very many groom that read bottles, lotion or cream ingredients as part of their daily routine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Blimey, don't you?
I used to read everything, twice.
One of my bosses didn't have the hottest of English, (though the Anglo Saxon was coming along nicely), and the other one was a bit of an airhead (wonderful rider, madam, honest, but come on, you're not a label person, are you
wink.gif
) - a third person for whom I worked at that kind of level was always meeting herself coming back and could quite easily have missed something. I wouldn't touch a thing without reading and re reading the label, referring to vet if necc. and on no account, ever, would I borrow anyone elses anything or use an unlabelled pack of anything.
Locked box and only things I had opened and not let out of my sight.
So you must know some very trusting people, cos that was over ten years ago and things can only have got tricksier.
smile.gif
 
Well I'm not saying I went and bought extra stuff, from the five and dime, but are you honestly saying that if you handed your groom something in a hurry to put on your horse, and it gave a forbidden substance in the small print on the back, or they had maybe heard a whisper to that effect, you would not expect them to pipe up and say 'excuse me, madam' or 'ms cruisline, m'dear' or however your grooms address you 'there appears to be something a bit amiss with this product - do you actually want me to use it?'
I know, I know, you never would! But do you honestly not think maybe they feel a sense of responsibility to double check everything?
 
and the best riders dont have grooms that they summarily instruct but managers with whom they have a working relationship and discuss the horsecare with them because they realise their expertise is RIDING and there are other people whose expertise is presenting the horses to the rider fit to be ridden and all. there are very very few riders who are also first class stablemanagers/head grooms as well.
most of the people i have worked for would be damn surprised if i didnt ask about any treatment i was supposed to be applying. i am sure there are plenty better grooms than me who are in exactly the same posotion.
 
[ QUOTE ]
and the best riders dont have grooms that they summarily instruct but managers with whom they have a working relationship and discuss the horsecare with them because they realise their expertise is RIDING and there are other people whose expertise is presenting the horses to the rider fit to be ridden and all. there are very very few riders who are also first class stablemanagers/head grooms as well.
most of the people i have worked for would be damn surprised if i didnt ask about any treatment i was supposed to be applying. i am sure there are plenty better grooms than me who are in exactly the same posotion.

[/ QUOTE ]
See this is the scenario I recall, I worked in partnership with riders to get the horse right for the occasion, and didn't just 'do as I was told' since I was supposed to be the expert in my field. Thought maybe it had all changed?
Anyway, catch me putting something on a horse without doing my homework? I dont' think so. And I never got fired. Well not for that, anway
wink.gif
 
exactly. i was saying earlier that it was possible i might use something *recently* banned if the label said competition approved but i havent been caught out yet and mostly i try hard to keep myself informed about what is legal medically and for tack, boots and other horse clothing by which i mean lunging kit for example. had a couple of run in with riders over that one i can tell you!
 
My daughter, my husband and I must obviously be the exceptions then (we have 14 grooms and a head groom between us), as we compete international in three different disciplines and yes we would not expect our grooms to apply anything that was not given to them by either my vet or us, if they did, they quite simply would not be around any more. My husband doesn't even allow his groom to put on stable bandages. They do not carry out any treatments on our horses without being asked to. Everything that is packed for an international trip is laid out by us first, then nothing is forgotten and if it is we can't blame the grooms.

That way mistakes at international competitions are avoided.
 
[ QUOTE ]

Having read your post though i would be intersted to hear what Cefyl and Weevil think of the amount of the substance in equiblock, a quarter of a percent seems very low, obvoiously enough to test but surely not enough to influence performance?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes a quarter of a percent seems low but obviously it is enough to have an effect or they wouldn't include it and the therapeutic dose can be very low.
Also the amount in the system depends obviously on the quantity applied and the frequency of application as well as the rate of clearance of capsaicin from the system.
 
and i see you are based in dubai where the quality of the staff though willing to learn is often no better than the average working pupil here. which is why you have to be that way i suppose. in places like the usa, canada and australia quite often the vets are hours away even in an emergency so you have to hire staff who are pretty proficient. a friend in an eastern european place flies his vet in from england especially because the locals are a bit limited, he has to rely on his groom to do more than just muck out and chuck out.
 
We have international horses based in England, Spain, and the UAE.

Although I would agree with you that some of our staff are still learning, I am sure that the rest of them would take offence at your comments.

I am not questioning your integrity as a groom, more the integrity of the riders.

At the end of the day, under FEI rules it is the rider of a horse that is held responsible for all and any breaches, not the groom. So it is the riders responsibility to make sure that all the i's are dotted and the t's are crossed, no matter where in the world you are living.
 
[ QUOTE ]
My husband doesn't even allow his groom to put on stable bandages.

[/ QUOTE ]

then I am sorry, s/he is not a groom. S/he is a mucker out. maybe a yard worker? Domestic staff?

I would not have worked on a yard where I was not trusted to put on bandages, and I have never worked on one where it was not acknowledged that I was the best bandager on the yard, owners and riders included. Vets are notoriously rubbish at bandaging.

I think the misunderstanding that has arisen here is about the definition of groom.

I'm really shocked at what you wrote! I don't question it, but I am quite horrified!
shocked.gif
 
Most grooms I know just do as they are told, they are generally too frightened of the riders to not follow instructions. They also leave stuff around for other grooms and riders to see. Most show jumping people have been so confident about the heat inducing applications that are almost universally used at international shows - its great that the FEI have finally got around to identifying this very common problem. Believe me, the riders know very well what they are doing and its just so easy to cover it up with nice smelling fly spray !
 
i ust suppose J1234 that your own little lord fauntleroy is not among those minions......
wink.gif

and i thought the FEI were going to introduce thermal imaging to the boot check area. pity they didnt as that would end teh debate once and for all.
 
[ QUOTE ]

I'm really shocked at what you wrote! I don't question it, but I am quite horrified!
shocked.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

It amuses me that you are so offended by what I have said, in fact you are horrified.

Most of our grooms ride, lunge, school, plait, travel with horses both nationally and abroad, load, unload, deal with stallion, prepare youngsters for gradings, some compete, etc. etc. (oh and yes they muck out!!)

There are many on this board who have seen my grooms working first hand and I think that they would agree when I say, they are a very valuable member of the team. The only thing they don't do is apply any medication, cream, lotion that we have not given them, and in the case of my husbands grooms, put bandages on.

I some how do not see how that makes them just mucker outers!!!!!!!!!!
 
Well dear, if I have amused you, my day has not been wasted.
You do seem to give two rather different impressions, if you don't mind my saying so.
So glad I gave you a chuckle.
 
It's a perfectly viable product and has its uses like everything else. There are lots of supplements and preparations now that make such an assurance, give the huge number of things that can spark a positive test these days.

Technically any "pain relieving" product that is legal for competition horses (including many of the things people feed to "support" horses with arthritis come under this heading, although the spirit of the law is if it works then it *should* test and be banned.

There are also some areas of the sport that are more lenient than others and this is part of this argument - "doesn't test" under whose rules?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top