Equine Dentistry

I am old enough to remember when the vet rasped the teeth with a hand held rasp after he had felt the edges of the horse's teeth with his fingers to determine whether the job needed doing. It was quite a quick procedure. Then along came the new "profession" of equine dentistry, and the frequency and amount of work done has escalated; I feel it is a case of job creation and over servicing. The younger generation of horse owners have never known anything different so accept that what modern EDTs do is good practice. i think it is questionable whether most horses on diets containing plenty of hay or grass need this interference at all.
 
horsesense said:
I am old enough to remember when the vet rasped the teeth with a hand held rasp after he had felt the edges of the horse's teeth with his fingers to determine whether the job needed doing. It was quite a quick procedure. Then along came the new "profession" of equine dentistry, and the frequency and amount of work done has escalated; I feel it is a case of job creation and over servicing. The younger generation of horse owners have never known anything different so accept that what modern EDTs do is good practice. i think it is questionable whether most horses on diets containing plenty of hay or grass need this interference at all.
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Again, I agree.
 
horsesense said:
I am old enough to remember when the vet rasped the teeth with a hand held rasp after he had felt the edges of the horse's teeth with his fingers to determine whether the job needed doing. It was quite a quick procedure. Then along came the new "profession" of equine dentistry, and the frequency and amount of work done has escalated; I feel it is a case of job creation and over servicing. The younger generation of horse owners have never known anything different so accept that what modern EDTs do is good practice. i think it is questionable whether most horses on diets containing plenty of hay or grass need this interference at all.
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Pretty much what my vet is saying really. Some horses will of course need intervention at some point in their lives but a lot are having unneeded and harmful in the long term, procedures. I thought this debate would prove interesting.
 
I had mine done the back end of last year by an EDT. She wanted to use power tools and I wasnt keen. So she turned it on and put it on my hand, on the thin bit of skin between my thumb and forefinger. I could feel something, but it never marked my skin at all. So I agreed to her using it. She used it for about 2 mins and then stopped. He has been fine ever since :)

I dont know if you mean a different sort of power tool?! I do my dogs nails with a dremel, obviously very slowly and carefully, but the Dremel I use on his nails would have ripped my skin off if I'd been stupid enough to try it, and thats a dogs nail not a tooth
 
My EDT is a really nice bloke, good with the horses, talks the talk, fills in the paperwork, etc. He uses power tools and advised nine-monthly visits for my old horse and always explained that his teeth were very ridged (how he wore them) and grew hooks that blocked his jaw sliding forwards and back which could give him discomfort in his work (or words to that effect). The horse could sometimes be resistant but was pretty straight-forward, so like most horses. I don't know, it all sounds plausible and he's supposed to be the expert but, my gut says it was all more interference than was good for him (this was a very sensitive horse, now deceased, who had adverse reactions to jabs, wormers, everything you normally do to try to help them!). Sometimes less is definitely more, but they tell you how much they need to do and how often they need to come...
 
AdorableAlice said:
You can get their tongue out and have a feel, bit risky mind ! It is all down to trusting the professionals I suppose, which is why I use a vet. I doubt many EDTs will come onto the yard and tell you nothing is needed.
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You do seem to have a very low opinion of EDTs. There are vets that I wouldn't allow near my horses just as there are EDTs who I trust to do a good honest job.

An annual check up, (6 monthly for the youngsters) with no rasping done if none is necessary is the schedule I will keep to, and I trust my EDT to advise me correctly. I don't think its possible to thoroughly examine a horse's mouth without a dental gag, and my EDT both shows me and gets me to feel the 'before' and 'after'.
 
horsesense said:
I am old enough to remember when the vet rasped the teeth with a hand held rasp after he had felt the edges of the horse's teeth with his fingers to determine whether the job needed doing. It was quite a quick procedure. Then along came the new "profession" of equine dentistry, and the frequency and amount of work done has escalated; I feel it is a case of job creation and over servicing. The younger generation of horse owners have never known anything different so accept that what modern EDTs do is good practice. i think it is questionable whether most horses on diets containing plenty of hay or grass need this interference at all.
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Also old enough to remember, over the years I have had many horses in the yard and apart from the odd one who had never previously been seen by a dentist or vet so required a bit of extra work on the first visit, I have never yet had one with any issues, they all get checked annually, have a fairly routine amount of work and have been fine until the following year, maybe mine are unusually straightforward with good teeth and conformation but I have never been told they require check ups more frequently by any EDT or vet and I have used a few over the years.

The only livery that had issues was rasped so much by an EDT that he couldn't chew, the vet assisted by a different EDT had to reduce his incisors so he could eat normally, later he had another problem resulting in a molar being removed but the EDT left a fragment behind, over the following couple of years this caused him further problems, several visits by EDT and vets failed to sort it until finally the offending fragment was seen on xray and removed, his problems were not over and he was finally pts as the fragment had caused him to have a distressing headshaking condition which probably was by then due to nerve damage, his owner feels the original EDT probably caused more damage than first thought.
It is so hard to know who to trust, at least with farriers an owner can educate themselves and see what is going on, with teeth it is far more difficult as they are hidden away and horses can be so stoic.
 
Tiddlypom said:
You do seem to have a very low opinion of EDTs. There are vets that I wouldn't allow near my horses just as there are EDTs who I trust to do a good honest job.

An annual check up, (6 monthly for the youngsters) with no rasping done if none is necessary is the schedule I will keep to, and I trust my EDT to advise me correctly. I don't think its possible to thoroughly examine a horse's mouth without a dental gag, and my EDT both shows me and gets me to feel the 'before' and 'after'.
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Not so much of a low opinion more sceptical after having seen so many horses with mouths that are not ideal for them now and in the future. As I said we can only trust in the professional services that we pay for and the rounded smooth teeth that seem to be so prevalent after an EDT has been at work concerns me.
 
Gosh be positive, that's pretty shocking. I wouldn't have expected an EDT to have been removing molars, isn't that usually a hospital job? Although I've known those to go wrong too, so...

I don't think there are any easy answers re who to trust, and just consider myself lucky we happen to have a very good yard dentist. Like most things, a personal recommendation from someone sensible has got to be best?

I think with dentistry we really are in the professionals' hands: without a gag, as owners we can't see or feel far enough back in the horse's mouth to detect hooks or ulceration. And horses are eating machines, so by the time they're quidding and displaying obvious signs of dental problems, they have been in discomfort (or worse) for months. For those reasons I wouldn't be confident not to have an appropriate professional have a proper look in my horse's mouth every 9-12 months.
 
The molar was loose and broken so removed by EDT with vet attending, missed that bit earlier, it was a catalogue of errors, the EDT is highly thought of, the vet is an equine vet yet it took me to point out that a fragment in the jaw may be causing him some pain!! his owner had apparently been told many times that it was not a problem and would be expelled, instead it went in deeper and damaged the nerves.
 
AdorableAlice said:
I doubt many EDTs will come onto the yard and tell you nothing is needed.
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That's when we feel lucky to have a great EDT. He's an older chap who uses hand rasps. He's not done a couple of our oldies as he said he'd end up making things worse and as the pony looked well it was obviously managing to eat ok!

On occasions he's taken one sharp edge off a tooth and not charged us for it. Goodness knows what we'll do when he retires.
 
I use an EDT, he does mine with a hand rasp but when I was talking to him about power tools he said in some cases they are ideal as they can take hooks etc off quickly and it can make the experience better for the horse but as with everything they need to be used correctly.
My horses are older 18yrs and possibly 24yrs he advises a visit every 2yrs unless they are showing any signs of problems, they hadn't had their teeth done for several years before I bought them and being older their mouth isn't changing like a youngsters would and also as they browse as well as graze it helps keep their teeth in good order but should I notice any problems to give him a ring, this has worked well for 6 yrs and very little work is needed when he does visit.


I'll duck now as you all raise your hands in horror.
 
Peregrine Falcon said:
That's when we feel lucky to have a great EDT. He's an older chap who uses hand rasps. He's not done a couple of our oldies as he said he'd end up making things worse and as the pony looked well it was obviously managing to eat ok!

On occasions he's taken one sharp edge off a tooth and not charged us for it. Goodness knows what we'll do when he retires.
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I have switched to an "old school" dentist who uses hand tools. His position is "do nothing if not needed" and in fact walked away from two of my 5 saying they didn't need any work done. They are checked once a year, with the baby every 6 months. He also advocates referral to a vet if he feels there is something in there beyond his capability. As a vet myself (sheep and cows though!) I see this as ideal.
Meanwhile in the city horses are being diagnosed with "caries" by equine vets due to the high sugar levels in our cereal hays... Pretty sure horses have been eating oaten hay in Western Australia for a LONG time. I am sceptical. I am also old enough to remember horses never having teeth done unless there was an identifiable issue like reluctance to accept the bit, travelling crooked or quidding (and even then, only when everything else had been ruled out).
 
Interesting.

I have used both.

Vet, no-nonsense, no sedation. Hand rasp. No complaints to be made.

EDT, sedated whether you wanted or not. Power tools. Knew her craft but reversely I wouldn't say I felt the job was done any better; it only took far longer and was more expensive than the vet would be. For instance I wasn't all too happy with my boy being drugged for what would have been a five minute job without.

On balance I prefer the vet. But it might all depend on the person you use.
 
Micropony said:
Gosh be positive, that's pretty shocking. I wouldn't have expected an EDT to have been removing molars, isn't that usually a hospital job? Although I've known those to go wrong too, so...

I don't think there are any easy answers re who to trust, and just consider myself lucky we happen to have a very good yard dentist. Like most things, a personal recommendation from someone sensible has got to be best?

I think with dentistry we really are in the professionals' hands: without a gag, as owners we can't see or feel far enough back in the horse's mouth to detect hooks or ulceration. And horses are eating machines, so by the time they're quidding and displaying obvious signs of dental problems, they have been in discomfort (or worse) for months. For those reasons I wouldn't be confident not to have an appropriate professional have a proper look in my horse's mouth every 9-12 months.
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I have a gag. I bought it from eBay for £160.

Although is two years since my horses were done, I have checked them and can't find anything seriously sharp. As an old vet once said to me 'horse's teeth are supposed to be sharp!'
 
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horsesense said:
I am old enough to remember when the vet rasped the teeth with a hand held rasp after he had felt the edges of the horse's teeth with his fingers to determine whether the job needed doing. It was quite a quick procedure. Then along came the new "profession" of equine dentistry, and the frequency and amount of work done has escalated; I feel it is a case of job creation and over servicing. The younger generation of horse owners have never known anything different so accept that what modern EDTs do is good practice. i think it is questionable whether most horses on diets containing plenty of hay or grass need this interference at all.
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This.

'At all' , never mind every six months!
 
I have used 3 EDT's in the last ten years. The first used hand tools, was highly qualified, and I thought he was doing a great job. I accepted that one mare's difficult behaviour was 'just her'. Occassionally the old cob and the other mare wouldn't eat for 24 hours after a treatment, which he said was quite normal. He was good with the two yearlings, who were not fazed by the whole process.None of the six ever had a bitting or noticeable eating issue.
Cut to two years ago, after relocating, and I used an EDT who used hand tools. Difficult mare miuch easier and coped with the whole process rather than 5 minutes. No need to sedate, and much safer for all of us. The grown up yearling was found to have a missing back molar, which had never grown, so had a distorted jaw. Had he not been a tough section A able to live on fresh air, he would have been very poor as he couldn't graze properly - he had never had a problem with bitting and has the softest mouth. Mare that wouldn't eat for 24 hours after treatment has not had the issue again. Now using another EDT recommended by my physio who is great.
So I guess the lesson is that there are good and bad out there and sometimes it's hard to know who is good!
 
I have used the vet for the last few years he specialises in teeth so has a greater understanding of them, one of mine has a wave mouth so I am picky who does his teeth anyway and I don't mind if they want to sedate to to them I think it can be safer all round to be honest, I have used a very good EDT and would use him again.
 
AdorableAlice said:
You can get their tongue out and have a feel, bit risky mind ! It is all down to trusting the professionals I suppose, which is why I use a vet. I doubt many EDTs will come onto the yard and tell you nothing is needed.
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You see mine does. There are 3 horses on our yard that she checks every 6 months and spends 5-10 mins having a good look and often declares them fine and not needing any treatment. She doesn't charge them either. Ok you could say that she is there anyway as one of mine gets very sharp at the back and does need that addressing every 6 months. I would never be confident enough to say if a horse needed treatment or not and I'm afraid I've seen vets do the worst job ever! I think it's very much down to the vet and the EDT as individuals. You obviously have a great vet for dental work which is great. I think I have a great EDT who is very happy to work with vets on many occasions.
The greater problem I feel is the owners who have little/no understanding of what is going on and are happy to let professionals have free rein. I don't advocate questioning every little thing professionals are doing, but I do think a good knowledge of what they are doing and why is really important. We owe this to our animals I think :)
 
AdorableAlice said:
You can get their tongue out and have a feel, bit risky mind ! It is all down to trusting the professionals I suppose, which is why I use a vet. I doubt many EDTs will come onto the yard and tell you nothing is needed.
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Just a note on this, if not careful it's possible to cause some damage to your horse holding the tongue. Thought it was worth mentioning - as you said earlier there are a lot of experienced people on this thread who probably already know but it might be news to someone :)
Thread on here a few years ago http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...ngue-the-hyoid-bones-and-doing-major-damage-(


FWIW I have one horse that I absolutely can't sedate and it makes the job much easier if we use power tools as she doesn't object so much. Other horse is fine to sedate. Both are done by a vet as my practice (same as yours I believe AA) do a package including teeth and jabs etc. They are both *seen* annually but the amount of work done depends on their needs :) Millie always feels better to ride after the sharp bits are removed so I will stick with this routine for now. My vets have noted that treatment will become more conservative as she ages.
 
AdorableAlice said:
I doubt many EDTs will come onto the yard and tell you nothing is needed.
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Mine does! He usually comes to do about 5 or 6 at the same time so I don't know if it would be the same for just one, but as most of them are getting on a bit, last time he came he said 3 of them didn't need any work at all and the other 3 just needed a very small tidy up. He's adamant that with older horses in particular, the less you do the better. He didn't even charge a check-up fee for the 3 who didn't need doing. I've used him for over 10 years (he was recommended by my vet) and trust him completely. Everything is done by hand unless there's a problem. When I first got my boy, the vetting picked up long canine teeth so my vet said they would need filing right down. My EDT sedated him and used a power tool on him then, but that was the only time.

I think power tools have a place and probably by using them in special cases, EDTs have noticed how much easier it is on the arms and shoulders so some have started using them more routinely. I wouldn't want to use one who uses them routinely.
 
As a matter of interest, are any of the EDTs who have apparently damaged a horse's mouth fully qualified? There's a recent list here.

http://www.baedt.com/?c=5432

Plus the student members

http://www.baedt.com/?c=20060

I wonder if some dentists are calling themselves EDTs when they do not have the proper accreditation. If anyone has had a bad experience with a BAEDT registered dentist, I hope that the professional body responded accordingly to any legitimate complaint?
 
My daughters pony had her teeth done two years ago by an EDT, that winter she couldn't eat hay at all only picked at it, this year i refused to have her teeth done, this winter eating hay like a young un!
 
Mine are done when needed - if I see them being fussy in their mouth, hanging on one side of the bit, quidding etc. I do have a good EDT who does not use power tools and is very patient. When I have him out to one I ask him to check all the others.

I also trust my vet - there are 2 at the practice (equine only vets practice) who are very good and one of mine will be seeing the vet next week - he's not good having his teeth done at the best of times but this time he needs wolf teeth out as they are causing problems so some heavy sedation will be needed - for that reason the vet will be coming out.
 
I recently went back to my edt after my vet who is dental trained automatically sedated and used power tools the last 2 times. It was a new pony and I didn't know if he needed sedating or not so I went to a trusted EDT explained the situation and he came out to just see how he was - he took his time and was really gentle and he didn't need sedating at all and no power work. I don't mind if sedation and power is needed but if it's not it seems OTT.
 
Thankfully my vet is great at teeth, so they all have an annual check up when getting their vaccinations and hand rasped. Only one (the 11hh pony) needs sedated, as he is just so little and wriggly the vet would have to get on his hands and knees to do it which isn't v safe with pony bouncing about.

He has noted that our ID mare who is 17 has beginning of a wave mouth, but is happy to monitor this, and definitely is v old school and does not believe in power tools unless absolutely no other option.

Don't know what we will do when he retires though :(

Fiona
 
vet for mine. Have an annual check up when jabs are done and he spends more time having a look and feel round the mouth than he does actually doing anything with any tools. And when he does need to do something it usually takes less than a minute to knock off any sharp edges. Less is more he says.
We have a chap come to our yard who does the rest of the horses and as far as I can ascertain he has no formal qualifications or training but he's been 'doing it a long time so knows what he's doing' Really ? says who ? because he says so ? No thanks, not for my horse.
 
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