Equine flu outbreak - anyone else thinking about curtailing plans?

DabDab

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Popsdosh, sorry about your two lost youngsters but you still vaccinate against tetanus, though, surely?

Re the Middlesex/Herts thing, here's the latest AHT update on tonight, no new cases reported (phew) but :eek: :-

UPDATE: 10 February 2019

New in this update:
• CORRECTION – Case incorrectly reported yesterday (9 Feburary 2019) as being in

Hertfordshire but should have been reported as being in MIDDLESEX. AHT would like to apologise for this error.


Do we need to eat humble pie?
If they also describe any cases in Shropshire as being from Salop. Or any cases in Wolverhampton as being in Staffordshire or any other random examples from around the messy geography of the UK, then sure, I'll eat humble pie
 

hollyandivy123

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Wind your horns in!!!since when has it been compulsory to vaccinate my horses. As much as I respect your freedom to do yours dont criticise those that dont. Clearly the vaccinations have done a wonderful job on this one .

I have never had a horse with equine flu ,nothing remarkable you say, however I have lost two young thoroughbreds with botched vaccinations in the last 15yrs. So to me its a no brainer!
Vaccination work to two levels,
1. Providing the animal/human with an improved immune arsenal if they meet the disease. They will still have symptoms but often subclinical in most cases, but without would have a far worse clinical response.
2. Herd immunity, preventing transmission through the population. This also protects parts of the population who can’t be vaccinated or has an immune system which is not able to respond in a normal way. This is why in the human population there is an increase in diseases such as measles, due to kids not being vaccinated.
 

popsdosh

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Popsdosh, sorry about your two lost youngsters but you still vaccinate against tetanus, though, surely?

Re the Middlesex/Herts thing, here's the latest AHT update on tonight, no new cases reported (phew) but :eek: :-

UPDATE: 10 February 2019

New in this update:
• CORRECTION – Case incorrectly reported yesterday (9 Feburary 2019) as being in

Hertfordshire but should have been reported as being in MIDDLESEX. AHT would like to apologise for this error.


Do we need to eat humble pie?
Thank you ,yes they are all done for Tet from babies . Wouldnt compromise on that. we do them ourselves !
I am lucky in that the youngsters are a closed herd as such with no other horses close enough to introduce anything. I do like them to have a chance to build up their own immunity to everyday bugs that they may encounter before they ultimately compete and have compulsory vacs.

On the Middlesex thing . it was removed as an official county either administrative or ceremonial in 1965. I think the AHT have been got at by the flat earth society.
 

popsdosh

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Vaccination work to two levels,
1. Providing the animal/human with an improved immune arsenal if they meet the disease. They will still have symptoms but often subclinical in most cases, but without would have a far worse clinical response.
2. Herd immunity, preventing transmission through the population. This also protects parts of the population who can’t be vaccinated or has an immune system which is not able to respond in a normal way. This is why in the human population there is an increase in diseases such as measles, due to kids not being vaccinated.
lovely to trolled on here as well!

Herd immunity doesnt work very well when there is a breakdown in the immunity provided by the vaccine as in this case.
Subclinical cases can still be a danger to other horses and will speed up the mutation of the virus.A case could be made that a vaccinated herd may be more likely to suffer more when challenged by a mutation. They can also be at extra danger themselves if the rider has not spotted the subtle changes that result from the infection being masked and the horse is asked to do strenuous exertion the very reason the racing industry is nervous on this.
 

popsdosh

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4 more positives at Simon Crisfords Newmarket yard . A flat trainer with no links to any of Mccains horses .
However for whatever reason Newcastles all weather flat meeting was deemed as suspect even though there was no linking factor so all 174 horses had been tested. Luckily for Newmarket its to a great degree off season for them.
 

hollyandivy123

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lovely to trolled on here as well!

Herd immunity doesnt work very well when there is a breakdown in the immunity provided by the vaccine as in this case.
Subclinical cases can still be a danger to other horses and will speed up the mutation of the virus.A case could be made that a vaccinated herd may be more likely to suffer more when challenged by a mutation. They can also be at extra danger themselves if the rider has not spotted the subtle changes that result from the infection being masked and the horse is asked to do strenuous exertion the very reason the racing industry is nervous on this.
Hardly trolling just basic science and biology popsdosh.

How does a subclinical case speed virus mutation rate?
 

DabDab

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Surely if someone has a closed herd out of reach of other horses, then their choice to vaccinate or not shouldn't be something for others to get over excited about?
 

EKW

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4 more positives at Simon Crisfords Newmarket yard . A flat trainer with no links to any of Mccains horses .
However for whatever reason Newcastles all weather flat meeting was deemed as suspect even though there was no linking factor so all 174 horses had been tested. Luckily for Newmarket its to a great degree off season for them.
Rebecca Menzies had horses at Newcastle that day and she suspected sh had a couple of ill horses which have since tested negative to flu.
 

Tiddlypom

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Surely if someone has a closed herd out of reach of other horses, then their choice to vaccinate or not shouldn't be something for others to get over excited about?
Indeed, it's not something I would do but Popsdosh has explained his valid reasons for not wanting his herd done.

True antivaxxers won't vaccinate against tetanus or anything else either, now that is truly bonkers.

ETA The flat earth society do seem to have got a result...
 

popsdosh

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Hardly trolling just basic science and biology popsdosh.

How does a subclinical case speed virus mutation rate?
What a coincidence then?LOL
Simply because any pathogen will mutate quicker if challenged by a defence mechanism that nearly controls it . How does AB resistance become prevalent ,Viruses mutate in the same way if not challenged they dont need to mutate so quickly its their survival mechanism.
That of course is the simplistic answer im sure theres others who may elaborate.
 
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EKW

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As far as im aware horses from Newcastle were already being tested before Rebecca's horses were suspect
Yup which is why they are being tested as Menzies hadnt got her results back at that point. Hopefullt no one else will test postive now but a return to racing isnt looking likely any time soon annoyingly.
 

popsdosh

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A lot depends on any links closer to home for Crisfords horses which maybe more likely as the 2yos in suffolk may already have a few links into town.
In which case they may be able to shut down just Newmarket as in 2003 and keep a lid on it
 

SEL

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What a coincidence then?LOL
Simply because any pathogen will mutate quicker if challenged by a defence mechanism that nearly controls it . How does AB resistance become prevalent ,Viruses mutate in the same way if not challenged they dont need to mutate so quickly its their survival mechanism.
That of course is the simplistic answer im sure theres others who may elaborate.
Just went and googled this out of interest. Apparently there's been quite a bit of debate on whether the flu vaccine in humans is likely to cause the virus to mutate faster / more aggressively. Human sciencey site obviously but....

Vaccinations and antibiotic regimes work differently. Vaccinations prime the immune system for the possible encounter with a virus in the weeks, months or years to come. Antibiotics kill or inhibit the growth of bacteria already infecting you.

Whereas bacteria can evade an antibiotic and then pass along the genes of antibiotic resistance to offspring, viruses don't have direct contact with vaccines and thus aren't affected by them in this way.

"Influenza is a mutating virus, and this feature is related to [its] genome structure; it has nothing to do with vaccines," explained Mohammed Alsharifi of the Australian National University, lead author on the paper "Intranasal flu vaccine protective against seasonal and H5N1 avian influenza infections," recently posted on PLoS ONE, an online journal. "[The concept of] antibiotic resistant bacteria cannot be applied to viruses."

Viral mutations — the sort that allow the flu to evolve — come about in two ways, through antigenic drift or antigenic shift. Drift former refers to random mutations in a virus' genes, often responsible for heavier-than-normal flu seasons. Antigenic shift refers to the troublesome mixture of two or more strains, as seen in H1N1. Here, pigs likely were infected simultaneously by at least two strains of flu, and the viruses combined inside infected host cells.
 

hollyandivy123

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What a coincidence then?LOL
Simply because any pathogen will mutate quicker if challenged by a defence mechanism that nearly controls it . How does AB resistance become prevalent ,Viruses mutate in the same way if not challenged they dont need to mutate so quickly its their survival mechanism.
That of course is the simplistic answer im sure theres others who may elaborate.
Simple answer ... antibiotics work differently to vaccination for immunity. Ab tend to work on one cellular process take ampicillin binds a protein involved in cell wall production, the resistance genes which then permit survival as a antibiotic target has changed or pumps are utilised to remove the ab from the cell. Pathogens can "select for a mutation", ie a change in a gene permits that one bacteria to grow and then it clonal expansion,


antibiotic resistance tends to be on genetic elements which can move into new strains and species, increasing the population of bacteria with the resistance for that antibiotic.

which is why using antibiotics when not needed is bad and especially using them in meat production, and travelling this product around the well is not going to help the fight against bacterial infection/resistance.

Vaccination tends to use multiple epitope sites for full immunity, if the viral coat changes in one aspect then it is partial immunity etc

you beat me to it SEL
 

TheMule

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Simply because any pathogen will mutate quicker if challenged by a defence mechanism that nearly controls it . How does AB resistance become prevalent ,Viruses mutate in the same way if not challenged they dont need to mutate so quickly its their survival mechanism.
That of course is the simplistic answer im sure theres others who may elaborate.
That's not correct on several levels.

1) Antibiotics do not cause bacteria to mutate, bacteria which have a mutation that makes them more antibiotic resistance are more sucessful when challenged with antibiotics so more likely to pass that mutation on either horizontally or vertically

2) Neither bacteria nor viruses mutate in a response to anything your body does (mutation is random but linked to environmental factors), therefore having an effective specific immune response to either the pathogen or a very similar strain will not affect the pathogen in any way (well, other than killing it, which is kind of the point!)

3) If you reduce the severity of symptoms you will massively help to reduce the risk of spreading the infection- a horse which sneezes and coughs a little will not pass on as much virus as a horse who does it a lot. They will also have a much lower viral load to pass on.
 

mule

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Just went and googled this out of interest. Apparently there's been quite a bit of debate on whether the flu vaccine in humans is likely to cause the virus to mutate faster / more aggressively. Human sciencey site obviously but....

Vaccinations and antibiotic regimes work differently. Vaccinations prime the immune system for the possible encounter with a virus in the weeks, months or years to come. Antibiotics kill or inhibit the growth of bacteria already infecting you.

Whereas bacteria can evade an antibiotic and then pass along the genes of antibiotic resistance to offspring, viruses don't have direct contact with vaccines and thus aren't affected by them in this way.

"Influenza is a mutating virus, and this feature is related to [its] genome structure; it has nothing to do with vaccines," explained Mohammed Alsharifi of the Australian National University, lead author on the paper "Intranasal flu vaccine protective against seasonal and H5N1 avian influenza infections," recently posted on PLoS ONE, an online journal. "[The concept of] antibiotic resistant bacteria cannot be applied to viruses."

Viral mutations — the sort that allow the flu to evolve — come about in two ways, through antigenic drift or antigenic shift. Drift former refers to random mutations in a virus' genes, often responsible for heavier-than-normal flu seasons. Antigenic shift refers to the troublesome mixture of two or more strains, as seen in H1N1. Here, pigs likely were infected simultaneously by at least two strains of flu, and the viruses combined inside infected host cells.
That's good. Antibiotic resistance is bad enough.
 
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Mine are vaccinated but I'm not taking the risk. None of my competing activities are important enough to risk infection. I would be so upset if we carried it back onto our yard.

I don't pretend to understand all the science. I know this isn't the first flu outbreak ever. I also know the proportion of horses is relatively small. But I'm not taking the risk.

one of the main cases is within a few miles of me and not only do they have racehorses but the younger generation also have ponies which they take to local venues for show jumping. So it's just not worth the risk for me.
 

criso

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I wonder if this will lead to a different response from venues etc. Lots around me (Herts) are cancelling, others are checking passports for vacc history.
And lots are now asking for vacs in the last 6 months but not in last 7 days. My dressage on Sat was cancelled but I wouldn't have had time for a 6 month booster anyway.
 

DabDab

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Well I said that I would post results from my snotty lot on another thread, but this one is more current now. Particularly one of mine was very snotty and coughing heartily and I had booked the vet the day before the racehorse story exploded, so when they came they took swabs and bloods mainly for due diligence on the flu front. Results back today and all negative for flu, which is great news, so just some other passing virus.
 

PapaverFollis

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It IS a big deal because vaccinated horses are getting it. And there's more cases than normal. It's a big deal because it looks like a new strain that UK horses are not vaccinated against or only partially protected from due to being vaccinated for a similar strain but not exactly the same one.
 

blood_magik

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Now a case in Scotland. Horse is unvaccinated. Blame seems to be placed at Billy Stewart's door. Whether that is true or not?
This popped up on my FB feed earlier and I’m now wondering if we should cancel all planned clinics and hires instead of checking passports and turning away unvaccinated horses. 😕

Might phone the vet in the morning and see what they recommend.
 

Tiddlypom

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The Scottish case hasn't been listed yet on the AHT website. Do the AHT cover Scottish cases, does anyone know?

It seems very unfortunate for the new owner and the yard to which it just been moved. Initial flu jab done, strangles test done, then it still gets sick.

I believe that a horse isn't clear to compete until 7 days after the 2nd jab of the initial course.
 
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