LizzieJ
Well-Known Member
They're on BBC2 
European Eventing Champs
- Thread starter amyneave
- Start date
oldvic
Well-Known Member
No, he lives in Rome. He is a lovely horse and I'm sure that with experience the time won't be a problem.
rebmw
Well-Known Member
MollyMoomin
Well-Known Member
Just seen Mary's fall, lucky lucky lady (in so far as she can be lucky having fallen). So pleased she is OK.
Have to say, Ingrid Klimke xc scares me a little bit!!
Have to say, Ingrid Klimke xc scares me a little bit!!
oldvic
Well-Known Member
Maybe twists and turns will help the germans as it will help to set them up a bit. They have some serious talent to call on. Will they be any more disadvantaged than our horses who were hardly foot-perfect this weekend?
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teapot
Well-Known Member
Jeezz Mary was lucky!
I'll be interested to see how the Germans fare on a fast twisty course...
I'll be interested to see how the Germans fare on a fast twisty course...
amyneave
Well-Known Member
I have been out to a competition today so missed the jumping. Gutted for the team, not one of our best performances. However bronze is still a good achievement, we are just used to our very high standards.
Looking forward to Burghley now!!
Looking forward to Burghley now!!
amyneave
Well-Known Member
I thought it was three to qualify????
Just had a good luck at the results. I think Britain just didn't have the luck this week. It started with Polly, then Laura, then Mary, then in the SJ. Britain on their day can be also be unbeatable as Germany was today.
Laura and Rayef could well feature next year and do very well for us. Cool Mountain didn't have the best time (few mistakes dressage, few scary moments xc, and one down sj), but we know if it worked out for him he could win medals like he did last year.
Also Mary is normally very reliable. IF she hadn't fallen and had gone inside time, then sj clear (i know its a huge IF ) she would have finished 3rd. Also if Piggy can sort those time faults out xc, and we can knock a few marks of Buzz's dressage, then that will make huge difference.
Britain still have a huge chance next year, plus if Minors Frolic and Redesigned are back it will only add to the choice for the selectors.
P.S.
Well done Germany
Chloe..x
Well-Known Member
absolutely LOVE Ingrids horse, he's such a little tryer but he looked SO tired in the SJ.
Unlucky for team GB but hopefully it has highlighted some weaknesses i.e dressage in comparison to the German for 2012.
Unlucky for team GB but hopefully it has highlighted some weaknesses i.e dressage in comparison to the German for 2012.
Sonette
New User
Interesting discussion.... I believe Michael Jung was second in the test event. And if I remember correctly, the Olympic course was also fast and twisty and the Germans did not have too many problems.
I don't know if Braxxi (Ingrid's horse) was tired, but he does not have a good track record of clear rounds in sj to begin with.
oldvic
Well-Known Member
So it's bad luck if things don't go right for us but not for others?!!!!
Our chance of gold hasn't changed from before the europeans although Rayef wasn't looking quick thinking and agile on a twisty course and has a lot to prove if he's to get back onto a team. Piggy's problem with Jakata is not new, just more obvious on this course but she has other horses that might be more suitable. Cool Mountain made mistakes and was tense in the dressage, that's life. He also made mistakes across country which he was lucky to survive. He's made mistakes before and probably will again, hopefully his luck will continue. So he had a show jump. He hit one very hard at WEG and it stayed, this time it didn't but it wasn't like he just touched it. Imperial Cavalier has had hairy rounds before and got away with it, this time he didn't. Even if he had gone clear, who's to say that he would have show jumped clear - he had 2 down at Gatcombe and has had fences in the past.
Also don't forget USA, Canada and New Zealand weren't there and Australia may well qualify at Blenheim. Next year is going to be a competition to savour with several nations in with a big shout for medals. Don't write any of them off or rely on luck although whoever wins will probably earn their fair share.
Chloe..x
Well-Known Member
I honestly don't think the USA and Canada are forces to be reckoned with in comparison to the Germans and New Zealand. In all honestly, I predict it will be between those 3 nations. USA and Canada don't have the strength and depth that we, Germany and NZ have.
The ground seemed to be cutting up so badly at Luhmuhlen and Rayef probably just had an off day as Laura said. Nerves probably got the better of her to, not easy making your senior debut at 21 in the European championships.
FrodoBeutlin
Well-Known Member
I am not sure I understand the criticism of the Germans' 'fast and bold' style.
Is it different to, say, Opposition Buzz's style? Is that not equally 'uncomfortable' to watch?
Is it about 'taking risks'? If so, surely WFP must have taken loads too to still make the time despite almost falling / problems at the water which surely must have cost him quite a bit...
To very ignorant eyes (i.e. mine ), Ingrid's (and Sam's) rounds both looked absolutely perfect, stunning, what incredible partnerships.
Is it different to, say, Opposition Buzz's style? Is that not equally 'uncomfortable' to watch?
Is it about 'taking risks'? If so, surely WFP must have taken loads too to still make the time despite almost falling / problems at the water which surely must have cost him quite a bit...
To very ignorant eyes (i.e. mine
), Ingrid's (and Sam's) rounds both looked absolutely perfect, stunning, what incredible partnerships.oldvic
Well-Known Member
I am not sure I understand the criticism of the Germans' 'fast and bold' style.
Is it different to, say, Opposition Buzz's style? Is that not equally 'uncomfortable' to watch?
Is it about 'taking risks'? If so, surely WFP must have taken loads too to still make the time despite almost falling / problems at the water which surely must have cost him quite a bit...
To very ignorant eyes (i.e. mine
I think we are dealing with a strong dose of nationalism!! Michael Jung rode a super round on a great xc horse with lovely quiet hands and minimal interference. Ingrid too didn't do much wrong. If she had gone any slower she would have had time faults so what was she supposed to do? where she was fairly wreckless at Badminton, here she got the balance right. I don't think I have seen the germans ride better across country. And yes, WFP did take risks, one of which nearly landed him on the floor - but he is allowed to!!!
They may not have the strength in depth but if their top riders/horses make it in one piece then it doesn't matter that there is nobody to fall back on. Canada were good enough for a medal last year so they can't be written off and Mark will be doing his level best to see the USA give him the best send off before David O'Connor takes over. They have riders with ability so should be respected too. France had a very good result this weekend and could well be on the way back so, while you may well be right, I wouldn't take it as cut and dried that somebody doesn't raise their game and surprise everyone - it often happens at olympics.
FrodoBeutlin
Well-Known Member
Ok, thank you - I guessed there might be an element of 'sour grapes' but I was genuinely trying to understand, as a x-c numpty my feeling/instinct was that Sam's and B.Abraxxas' rounds were faultless, then I came on here and read the opposite and I was just really confused
oldvic
Well-Known Member
If a british rider had been on either of them then they would have been perfect!!!! Good xc riding means taking calculated risks within yours and your horses capability. Sometimes it goes wrong and then you have to be honest with yourself as to whether you made a mistake, your horse did or it was an act of God! 90% of the time the rider should blame themselves.
vallin
Well-Known Member
Ok, thank you - I guessed there might be an element of 'sour grapes' but I was genuinely trying to understand, as a x-c numpty my feeling/instinct was that Sam's and B.Abraxxas' rounds were faultless, then I came on here and read the opposite and I was just really confused
I think a lot of it is because at Badminton/WEG (been a v. long day and can't for the life on me remember which!) the German's XC style did make for very uncomfortable watching, to the point where they no longer had a team because of the number of fallers they had XC. Unfortunatly some of the same mistakes were seen yesterday with Andreas Debowki's fall and another German individual, and although Ingrid had got a better balance I still feel uncomfortable watching her go XC. Jung and the young German girl both rode beautifully and should be congratulated on that. however I can still understand people's sceptasism about the German's XC ability.
Hope that makes some semblance of sense! Been a long day!
Vx
FrodoBeutlin
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the explanation x
rebmw
Well-Known Member
I'm afraid I can't remember all the german riders names to reference with my earlier comment about the pace v precision/finesse as there were quite a few that I watched yesterday. However, Jung rode beautifully and my comments were not aimed at him.
I don't see it as sour grapes, as we can all watch badminton/burghley and see plenty of rounds by british riders that we aren't comfortable watching. Remember the debates about Nick Campbell and Louise Skelton?
It just happened to be for me, that as the host nation, with more riders going round, some of the germans stood out as not being the tidiest yesterday.
I don't see it as sour grapes, as we can all watch badminton/burghley and see plenty of rounds by british riders that we aren't comfortable watching. Remember the debates about Nick Campbell and Louise Skelton?
It just happened to be for me, that as the host nation, with more riders going round, some of the germans stood out as not being the tidiest yesterday.
mbequest
Well-Known Member
I don't think anybody should forget about the Aussie team, an Aussie with a point to prove should NEVER be underestimated......
OneInAMillion
Well-Known Member
MJ and Sam's XC round was amazing to watch. They were fantastic through the arena fences where you could tell both were enjoying each other so much and Michael just looked like he was riding his favourite pony popping a few fences. It was lovely.
amyneave
Well-Known Member
I hadn't meant that. I'm not saying other nations haven't had bad luck before. I'm saying that eventing does need a slight amount of luck sometimes, and perhaps this week we didn't have it. Other nations did look really good this week, and they deserved to beat us.
What i meant was we can still look forward to next year and aim for that Gold medal. Hopefully we won't need any luck next year.
Plus the olympics has two SJ rounds. Not good news if your horse hasn't got the best SJ record. Hopefully next year we can jump clear rounds, which on our day we can do. Last year at WEG Mary, Nicola, WFP, and Pippa Funnell all jumped clear.
oldvic
Well-Known Member
I agree assuming that they qualify at Blenheim.
Saucisson
Well-Known Member
Just watched it last night - I'm a bit stunned by some of the nasty falls. Not just Mark King but a German chap had a horrible fall and Karin Donckers had a nasty one in the water. This is doing nothing to inspire my XC confidence
Mind you I think what suprised me most....................is how good WFP's french is?!?!? A man of many talents obviously
Mind you I think what suprised me most....................is how good WFP's french is?!?!? A man of many talents obviously
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
Re the competition from other nations . . .
The world is a different place now - everyone has access to great horses and top class, experienced instruction, which was not the case even a couple of decades ago. I don't think the British and Irish teams have got "worse" I think everyone else has got better! The margins are tiny. And MAYBE hungry countries have slightly more incentive to chip away at those margins by experimenting as they are free from the inclination to do things as they've always done. But really, at the top end, EVERYONE wants to win.
Debates about breeding systems and what tracks favour what sorts of horses etc. are far more the province of internet forums and the like. People on here say they'd rather be sat on an "Irish" horse (whatever that means, considering they haven't been shy about adding Continental blood) or whatever but most people want to be sat on something that wins! It does make a difference in picking teams as you want horses for courses but you also need sound horses, on form horses, experienced horses . . . there are only so many variables you can control. I thought a lot of the German horses looked very balanced and ridable, cutting their turns, setting up quickly and picking up in front - surely this will benefit at Greenwich?
I do think it's interesting that countries with very strong national showjumping traditions seem to be closing the gap most rapidly. Clearly leaving the poles up is becoming an essential part of the process! The UK still seems to be, at a grass roots level, all about the XC and I wonder if that has a bit of a "trickle up" effect. I've now seen quite a few horses come out of "straight" sj at a high level and slot right into doing well eventing (with the correct prep, of course), which suggests that the skills for the modern game don't have to be learned in the traditional arena of hunting and doing masses of xc, which has always been the strength here.
Tbh, I didn't think the Brits did anything spectacularly wrong and yes, there does have to be luck involved. BUT in a game of tiny margins I do wonder if there is, perhaps, some complacency, not on the part of the riders and their trainers, but in the expectations. As oldvic says, it is true that there are other nations without the depth (trust me, there is NO depth in Canada) but then that's not a problem if you keep all your people in one piece. It might be a weakness for the future and for long term consistency, but on the day you only have to get those four people over the line with the best results possible so I wouldn't discount nations that throw all their weight behind a few people. Sure, it's all gone if one horse takes a funny step, but I don't think you can assume that the riders in that situation are necessarily less skilled or competent if they do keep it together.
It will be most interesting to see the aftermath of this. The Brits seemed very downcast (as one would be, obviously) but it's too late in the day for a lot of navel gazing and rejigging. Perhaps it will help to have a bit of a shock this close to the day - let's hope the people in charge can keep everything going forward in a positive way, not looking for people to blame.
The world is a different place now - everyone has access to great horses and top class, experienced instruction, which was not the case even a couple of decades ago. I don't think the British and Irish teams have got "worse" I think everyone else has got better! The margins are tiny. And MAYBE hungry countries have slightly more incentive to chip away at those margins by experimenting as they are free from the inclination to do things as they've always done. But really, at the top end, EVERYONE wants to win.
Debates about breeding systems and what tracks favour what sorts of horses etc. are far more the province of internet forums and the like. People on here say they'd rather be sat on an "Irish" horse (whatever that means, considering they haven't been shy about adding Continental blood) or whatever but most people want to be sat on something that wins! It does make a difference in picking teams as you want horses for courses but you also need sound horses, on form horses, experienced horses . . . there are only so many variables you can control. I thought a lot of the German horses looked very balanced and ridable, cutting their turns, setting up quickly and picking up in front - surely this will benefit at Greenwich?
I do think it's interesting that countries with very strong national showjumping traditions seem to be closing the gap most rapidly. Clearly leaving the poles up is becoming an essential part of the process! The UK still seems to be, at a grass roots level, all about the XC and I wonder if that has a bit of a "trickle up" effect. I've now seen quite a few horses come out of "straight" sj at a high level and slot right into doing well eventing (with the correct prep, of course), which suggests that the skills for the modern game don't have to be learned in the traditional arena of hunting and doing masses of xc, which has always been the strength here.
Tbh, I didn't think the Brits did anything spectacularly wrong and yes, there does have to be luck involved. BUT in a game of tiny margins I do wonder if there is, perhaps, some complacency, not on the part of the riders and their trainers, but in the expectations. As oldvic says, it is true that there are other nations without the depth (trust me, there is NO depth in Canada) but then that's not a problem if you keep all your people in one piece. It might be a weakness for the future and for long term consistency, but on the day you only have to get those four people over the line with the best results possible so I wouldn't discount nations that throw all their weight behind a few people. Sure, it's all gone if one horse takes a funny step, but I don't think you can assume that the riders in that situation are necessarily less skilled or competent if they do keep it together.
It will be most interesting to see the aftermath of this. The Brits seemed very downcast (as one would be, obviously) but it's too late in the day for a lot of navel gazing and rejigging. Perhaps it will help to have a bit of a shock this close to the day - let's hope the people in charge can keep everything going forward in a positive way, not looking for people to blame.
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oldvic
Well-Known Member
blue2262
Well-Known Member
Do other nations top riders ride as many horses or compete as much as ours?
I cant help but wonder if ours have sufficient time to fine tune their top horses, particularly in the dressage and SJ, as they are competing so many and away for so much of the time?
I cant help but wonder if ours have sufficient time to fine tune their top horses, particularly in the dressage and SJ, as they are competing so many and away for so much of the time?
eventingART
New User
Some photos from "European Eventing Champs - Luhmuhlen 2011" on my website
http://eventing-art.com/luhmuhlen-2011-em/
http://eventing-art.com/luhmuhlen-2011-em/