Evening dressage report, and a judging Q

milliepops

milliepops

Wears headscarf aggressively
Joined
26 July 2008
Messages
27,531
Visit site
Following on from the 'first show' thread below - the first dressage competition is now over! It's another of those good, bad and ugly reports
crazy.gif


(bit of background - pony is (not mine!!) half trotter, 6 yo, broken to ride and then immediately broken to drive, then had a foal, now back in ridden work about 3 months
shocked.gif
. Rider is very novice, very keen, about 15 years old. She has been riding the pony for about a month. It belongs to a mutual friend).

Pony was NOT in a helpful frame of mind, so first test (P10) was rather interesting. The trot work was really quite sweet - kept a good rhythm for the most part but interspersed with extreme head tossing! Rider couldn't get her to canter, so ended up trotting the canter movements, but kept her cool and rode accurate shapes.
smile.gif


She was pretty gutted when she finished. Although she had expected it wouldn't be fantastic, I think she had put some pressure on herself to do well-ish.

She had only planned to do one test, but did have a timeslot for the next one (P18). We had a quick look through the test and decided to give it a bash. Much better test, got the canter this time and again, an accurate and rhythmical test but VERY variable contact/outline.

Looked at the scores - first test was 33% and rather decisively last place. 2nd was a kinder 51%.

So the question for any judges/dressage divas... This is a very informal hunt fundraiser competition, where you get all sorts - good unaff riders, pros taking babies to their first shows, and total riding newbies. The marks for P10 movements were fair IMO - she got 4s and 5s for her trot, 1s for the canter (attempted!) and a few 2s and 3s in between. The collectives made me really
mad.gif
though, because the judge gave her a 2 for her riding, with the only comment on the sheet 'more homework needed on legs, seat and hands'.

I feel this was totally unjustified. Exactly HOW BAD do you need to be to get a 2 for your riding? The kid has good balance, nice soft hands, looks where she is going, sits up well, heels down and can ride good circles, centre lines etc.

I feel like writing to the judge to ask if she feels that was really appropriate. The kid was in tears at the end. I strongly feel that shows like this should be encouraging, especially when it is blatantly obvious that it is a very novice combination.
frown.gif
 
Two is pretty damn bad and to be honest this was not a listed judge or even a trainee because you are advised only to go below five for riding in exceptional circumstances. at an unaffiliated I would virtually never do that if the rider was atempting the movements and not being abusive i.e. whipping and yanking.
anyway personally I think if you can get 50% of good marks for a prelim or pre novice test you shouldnt bloody well be judging unless the horse is breakdancing up the centerline.
 
Well I'm glad you said that!
smile.gif
I know it's not a listed judge but the person in question does quite often judge at these shows (they run once a month in the summer). I also know that they ride BD to at least Medium (can't get damn BD website to work!)

I felt so sorry for the girl, she tried her heart out. Fortunately she was cheered up by the second test, and will have another go next month. I think we will just avoid that judge in the future!
crazy.gif
 
I have in the past organised and scribed for our RC dressage comps which are mostly the junior members (as most of the seniors seem to only SJ).

I can think of 2 or 3 of them who would have ridden that sort of test first time out, and even of those who ride their tests VERY accurately, none of their ponies are in any sort of an outline.

They still get 5s and 6s. Its the riding club for goodness sake - not the regionals.

I would be very cross if we managed to book that sort of judge.

Fiona
 
[ QUOTE ]
Two is pretty damn bad and to be honest this was not a listed judge or even a trainee because you are advised only to go below five for riding in exceptional circumstances. at an unaffiliated I would virtually never do that if the rider was atempting the movements and not being abusive i.e. whipping and yanking.
anyway personally I think if you can get 50% of good marks for a prelim or pre novice test you shouldnt bloody well be judging unless the horse is breakdancing up the centerline.

[/ QUOTE ]


I would entirely agree with all this. David Trott says that if the rider stays on board then you really shouldnt give below a 5.( but please dont quote me as having said that!!) However I have given a four to a child with extremely punishingand I mean extremely, hands..I also spoke to her and her mother afterwards....
 
Thanks Hils, that's reassuring! I've got to admit, it's days like today that make me glad I only do BD shows.

Perhaps I will compose a (measured) letter to send to the judge. I think what saddened me the most was that it was so clear she wasn't even going to be slightly competitive (several around 75% in the class) so there really was no need to be so negative! Even a 'well tried' would have helped.
frown.gif
 
The judging sounds totally ridiculous. Judges who are judging an unaffiliated class usually mark about 10% kinder than if the class was affiliated. It may be worth talking to the organiser because this sort of treatment is going to put people off competing. The judge should have found something positive to say even if it was 'well tried' or 'a pretty horse but not listening well to you today.'
 
Wow, that's a harsh judge! While it's nice to get out of "5-6-itis" (I'm much more likely to believe a 7 or 8 for a movement if the judge actually gives a 2 or 3 for a crap movement), a 2 for riding, well, I think you'd have to be hanging onto the horse from underneath or something to deserve that in a Prelim test!

Judges, out of curiosity, how do you decide the riding mark? I've noticed it often seems to have more to do with how the horse is going than with what the rider is doing about how it is going...
 
I do plenty of writing for low level unaff stuff, walk trot tests and alike and anyone who has judged has never given below a 5 for riding, that was appaling IMO.
 
To those of you who said you shouldn't give below a 5 , what are marks 1-4 for?

Just playing devils advocate here. I think the mark was pretty mean but then if no canter was managed on either rein then surely riding ability has to come into it and surely the marks at the bottom should be reflected in the test?
 
God poor girl. Considering she carried on and kept calm that seems really unfair!

Sorry, highjacking a bit but........how do they actually mark the riding at low-level unaff?? I did my first prelim on Sunday and got a five for my riding.

See video and pics on other thread:
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/4588430/page/3/fpart/1/vc/1

Considering she feels like an unexploded bomb I think I rode fairly well in the test.

However, my second test was on a friend's seasoned dressage horse and I rode like a complete numpty. I had terrible hands and didn't ride into any of the corners.......and got a six. Why was this?
 
4 is if you fall off once
3 is if you fall off twice
2 is if you fall off 3 times
1 is if you fall of 4 times
grin.gif
 
The collectives are based on the other marks you get in the test and shouldn't be higher than the highest mark you have gained or lower than the lowest.
 
I tend to be a 7, In comparison to a lot of people I don't think I deserve a 7 but it depends who you are comparing me to.
 
[ QUOTE ]
a 2 for riding, well, I think you'd have to be hanging onto the horse from underneath or something to deserve that in a Prelim test!



[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I felt about it! It's a bit awkward, because my YO is the organiser of the competition so I'll have a word with her, and will probably also write to the judge. Still angry about it this morning!
mad.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]

Just playing devils advocate here. I think the mark was pretty mean but then if no canter was managed on either rein then surely riding ability has to come into it and surely the marks at the bottom should be reflected in the test?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, there's a point there but I would have expected something in the comments about that - to explain to the child why she only achieved a 2. She scored some 5s for her trot work. The score for paces was low - would also expect that having only cantered for a stride or 2 on the right rein.
 
I'm sorry I cant see how any judge can only use the marks from 5 to 10 and give an accurate picture of the test. If a movement is not executed it should be a 0 not a 5. Marks below a 5 are often given at affiliated competitions.

To be honest I wouldnt write to the judge except for advice about how the childs riding could be improved...I certainly wouldnt write and complain. Dressage is critical...even the best riders get 'more of this needed' 'could show more of that' because it is progressive. Surely the child need to understand this and take it on the chin rather than living in a world of pretend dressage which is dumbed down for kids.....take a look at the BYRDS, they are kids and judged harshly if it is deserved.

If the first rider in the arena did an average test and was awarded average marks, why would a child with a much worse test be awarded the same marks? It doesnt make sense.
 
I accept what you are saying, but let's face it, when most of the class is getting 60-75%, (and the next lowest was about 50%) is there really any need to totally demoralise a young child who is plainly there for the experience. She was in no danger of being placed. This isn't remotely like BYRDS!

I'm not for a second suggesting the test should have been 50% + as the second half was pretty poor. But, I am still utterly flummoxed by the 2 for her riding, when she is a tidy rider and it's an informal, unaffiliated show. There were a number of other very novice combinations in both classes. So as someone else said, I would not have expected a 2 unless she had been hanging off the underneath of her pony or sat in the saddle backwards.
frown.gif


Either way, I now know the person judging definitely isn't a judge (listed or trainee) and just knows a bit about dressage so presumably just makes it up as they go along
confused.gif
 
To be fair you cant expect quality judges at an unaffiliated show....they are already in huge demand for affiliated competitions. They dont get paid and most offer their time for benefit the sport (although not all I agree).

Maybe you need to write and for more information about why a mark of 2 was awarded and how to improve the childs marks rather than challenging her judgement. Try to tackle it on a positive basis rather than complaining.

You have me completely out of context, I didnt say it was remotely like BYRDS...what I said was they are children and they dont get a softer approach because of it. Should a judge dumb it down because the rider is a child!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top