Ex-raccehorse woes, seriously what am I going to do?

Sarah Fischer, Michael Peace, Samsara Equitation, Jason Webb, Richard Maxwell and others all do rehabilitation, they might be better than an ordinary trainer, the main advantage of using a local trainer is that you can go along and have some instruction once the mare is going forward.
 
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Get the mare to a vet for a bone scan now!
She sounds exactly the same as my little warmblood lad, we battled for 3 years to get him under saddle, but the trot to canter transition usually resulted in explosive unsittable bronking and bolting (but not always) I had all sorts of trainers telling me to shoot him as he was dangerous, I had one Very special trainer who took him on to work with him, whilst with her he had workups by some very good vets, completely sound in all paces, on all surfaces and on all sizes on circle. Even in flexion tests the vet could not make him lame, they xrayed every part of him the could, he was scoped, had his bloods done, had a full medical workup at vet hospital with nothing found, he was manipulated and poked and prodded in every conceivable place, they found nothing. He won dressage tests with 79%+ in walk and trot.

But something wasn't right. After he broke my mums neck and severly damaged my lower spine I got him bonescanned as a last effort. The scan picked up both a fractured skull and a fractured pelvis! The pelvis injury was causing him immense pain in the transition and hence his reaction. Vet said the horse should have been on 3 legs with that injury not winning at dressage!
6 months box rest ( the first 3 weeks crosstied on very large doses of bute) then 6 months in the field sorted the fracture out then we started from scratch and rebroke him entirely and we never looked back!
I had very much lost all my confidence before I found that trainer and was no good for him at the time. Once we found the root of the problem, fixed it and then the trainer worked him through tge remembered pain he was amazing. We competed at chaps champs and got a rosette in every class, we hacked out and I enjoyed riding again!

Please don't dismiss that your horse may be in pain, some are very very good at hiding it but it is those brave little souls that explode when it all gets too much for them to cope with any longer
 
wench said:
Yes sorry for the slight spelling error!
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Haha no worries!

Not sure my posts will help as his issues are very much foot related and the kissing spines didn't "seem" to be causing any problems when he was under saddle, though it's obviously something that will have to be monitored.

OP- It might be worth scoping for ulcers though. It's amazing the variety of symptoms ulcers can present themselves as and it doesn't necessarily have to be girthiness or grumpiness. The fact her behaviour is so varied may even be a really clear sign, depending on how full her tummy is/good the grass is etc as to how much acid is splashing around.
 
Lévrier;12843915 said:
I have already said something useful - stop being so flaming selfish and find the poor mare a decent home with an owner who isn't terrified of her, will give her the time and parameters she wants and needs, and will also put her through a proper lameness work-up/vet assessment. Of course to you that isn't useful because it isn't want you want to hear - it is, however, the truth.
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Thing is... unless this is a quality mare with potential- who is going to realistically take on that kind of horse? That needs a vet work up before they've even got it?
 
Michen said:
Thing is... unless this is a quality mare with potential- who is going to realistically take on that kind of horse? That needs a vet work up before they've even got it?
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If it is the one in the photo, it looks rather nice, and for all we know it might just be its current situation that is exacerbating its problems. Anyway I am sure OP won't sell or give it away, she has already made clear her views on these matters, and others.
I suspect she won't send the mare away for one reason or another, but lets hope she does see the light, for the sake of the horse.
 
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After wading through pages and pages of discussion...

OP, in your summary of her work, it reads like your mare has spooked a couple of times, bucked a couple of times, you had a nasty accident, and your mare is bad mannered to handle?

Spooking and perhaps bucking may stem from pain, or they may stem from joi de vivre, or unbalancedness (is that even a word???).

1) spooking - My mare is more spooky with me than with my friend who rides because I'm more nervous and looking for things she may spook at. The more consistent work she gets, the less spooky she is as she is concentrating more/getting used to things = get a confident sticky rider to ride your mare consistently - every day - bore her into submission.

2) bucking - getting legs in a muddle/ unbalanced through the transition = pretty normal bucking. Heels up when on canter outside = can be considered normal for some horses = not worth bothering about if rider happy and gets on with it (and is noted if selling horse) - pronging (nose to feet)/ "get me off" = not a happy horse (cue tack, back, teeth check).

3) bolting - was this a real bolt, or a wall of death round the arena? should be differentiated.

4) bad manners on ground - really, after 3+ years? Get some advice from a remedial trainer.

5) fence running - let her get on with it. She is expending energy. She is effectively training you to bring her in. I agree some horses don't like wet weather, but being cooped up inside isn't good for her either.

If you don't want a full work up, you could try a bute trial, but they aren't 100% diagnostic, and is only an indication there is pain *somewhere*
 
Blimey OP, you've had a bit of a bashing here.

I'll be honest and say I think you have not responded in the best way to the comments. You have come across as very rude and not given the best impression of yourself.

If you post on a forum you can't include all details and put across fully all the nuances of the problem so it can be frustrating to get responses that *seem* to miss the point and go off on a tangent.

You don't have to do every suggestion that is posted, but the posters have given you their time and attention and a short message along the lines of " Thanks for this. I'll have a think about how I can have a look at it" stops further comments/arguments and is at least polite.

For what it is worth, I think you have had some great advice and suggestions on this thread. I would advise leaving this thread for a while and reading it again in a few weeks or so. Hopefully you can take some of the suggestions on board and find a way to help your mare.
 
Michen said:
Thing is... unless this is a quality mare with potential- who is going to realistically take on that kind of horse? That needs a vet work up before they've even got it?
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I would :) Maybe I'm a bit strange though :p I am used to TBs and to be honest this behaviour doesn't sound that far removed from what my last little TB used to do on occasion....
 
OP- in my last post (which was the one before you called almost everyone who had replied names) I suggested, as many others have, sending the mare away for a month or two's schooling to see what someone else thought
You have chosen to ignore this bit of advice and haven't even commented on it - is there any reason why?

Many horses are spooky, you say you took your tumble from her when she spooked and then bronced. Even super spooky horses don't necessarily bronc after spooking, unless they are a) too fresh or b) it makes them sore.
Please, please consider properly tiring your horse out daily- the tarpaulin stuff etc is lovely for trust and building relationships and all that jazz, but it won't take the fairies out of her head or make her respect you. See if she is the same when she is truly TIRED OUT :-)
 
It's really disappointing to see the antipathy to some of the suggestions people have made. There is usually no simple solution, but a long fascinating road of trial and error. What works for one horse won't for yours but you won't know that until you have tried it. The thing is, if you do embark on that long road, you will become a far better horseperson for it - you will learn to see things from your horse's viewpoint, you will gain enormously from the physiological and nutritional knowledge you will learn along the way, and you might very well end up with a horse who owes you its life - and knows it.
My horse was home bred, so never badly treated and scared but the most difficult horse I have ever backed. Even months and years afterwards he put me on the floor numerous times, attacked a dog in his paddock and was generally a right delinquent. I had broken and ridden away numerous others but he was a one off. I took him to clinics, read threads on forums (?fora?) and networked until I found some answers. There were some dead ends (Parelli being one!!) and several useful ideas, including magnesium deficiency, a very sensitive metabolism, sore feet and stiff muscles - but I have learned so much. Some horses are a real challenge and sent to teach us - don't give up on them.

Oh, I forgot to say - my horse is now a pleasure to ride in the school and we have had several classical dressage lessons.
 
snopuma said:
Okay since she's been with me in June 2011 she worked great the first day back, bolted and bronced the second day, she had been out all day but there had been a summer storm in the afternoon and she came in crazy, I didn't think she'd hold that fear having been in for an hour before I rode, my yard owner wanted to see her ridden (she is a very good friend) she got me to canter again on my terms after the bolting and that was okay on a 20m circle but she was very wound up, I contacted the previous owner to ask if she had ever behaved like this she said no and volunteered to come over and ride her, she made a few appointments and cancelled last minute every time, then she called me out of the blue and said she'd have her back as she had another buyer who wanted a black horse for showing, but I had done her vacs, teeth, saddle and re-registered by then and to be fair it was never on the cards. So we never spoke again. For that summer and autumn I struggled on riding her maybe 3 times a week and then I got a trainer to come and ride her to see what he thought, he thought she was fine and just needed to learn to balance and that the previous owner had sold her without her really being established. So from that point I had a lesson every week - he rode first and I rode for the second half - she improved and our only set backs were in the winter when we had a foot of snow for a month and nothing got ridden, but onwards and upwards, I took her to a clinic where the trainer rode her and she was great, even coping with very spooky jumps without battling an eyelid. Then in June 2013 I took her to a local dressage show just intro she was very excited but held it together and got over it in the warm up, then she did a beautiful test and won with 76% smiles all round! Two weeks later we took her again, trainer did the prelim and I did the Intro, I won he came third, she did bronc with him in the warm-up and friends that came to watch commented that maybe something was wrong with her back. I got the vet out and you know the response so I gave her a month off and had the physio out and started again, physio said it must be a balance thing and advised that canter work should be half seat and to let her run smoothly into canter perhaps with a pole so she's not focused on the aid for canter from the rider, so that autumn trainer cantered her like this and I cantered too, slight shade of green but I did it, then we started to work on lateral in trot and that really helped so it was all looking good until ducks by the school spooked her and she set sail broncing and put me on the floor that was Jan 2014, during my recovery the trainer rode her and a friend lunged her and she had limited turnout. I started ride her again in May 2013 and we had a great summer, we didn't go to any shows, I was in too much pain, trotting felt like my leg was dislocating but I persevered, I had a bit more confidence with a HIT-AIR jacket that I now ride in all the time, I got a neck strap, and because it was my last thought to grab anything when I got launched an RS-Tor. So I rode and hacked until October when she got an abcess. She was out of action for 6 weeks while that was brewing and then I rode her a couple of times and then it was winter and you know the rest.
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I have read through the whole thread and this is probably the most useful info you have given re work done and timescales etc. I do agree if it were my horse I would most likely be sending the horse for a full work up but do understand why you do not want to do this.

From the post above it does seem that she has genuinely frightened you in that accident and is generally a handful of a horse at the best of times. It seems as though she is probably picking up on your nerves and reacting, which has turned your situation into a vicious circle.

I fully understand your reasoning for not turning out but this horse needs to expel her excess energy and I would, as others have said, give her at least 2 oppourtunities a day to work and or just kick her heels up and burn energy. I can't turn my horse out at the moment- I won't bore you with the reasons why. But she is being exercised at least twice a day, with at least one session of free schooling per day where she is actively encouraged to buck, bronc and let steam off in a safe place. She is either then ridden, lunged or free schooled again at the other end of the day. I cannot keep her in and safely ride her without letting her explode at least ocne a day. This keeps her sane, happy and safe. Do you have the facilites to be able to do that in the winter months? If not, it may be an idea to perhaps look for somewhere you can? Would you consider a yard move?

I think you also really need to look at your confidence levels and honestly ask yourself if you think you will get your confidence back with this mare. I think sometimes we get hung up because we really love a horse, even though they aren't perhaps the best match for us. At the end of the day, if it is important that you get some enjoyment out of it, maybe she is not the one for you. I really don't think you should think less of yourself if you decide that you do not want to perservere- I certainly wouldn't blame you. If you do decide that you do want to carry on, I think you need to get a really good trainer onboard who will ride, can get her going for you and then help you gradually get back on and then you start riding her regularly again.

If the behaviour continues I would definitely get a work up done.
 
kirstie said:
I have read through the whole thread and this is probably the most useful info you have given re work done and timescales etc. I do agree if it were my horse I would most likely be sending the horse for a full work up but do understand why you do not want to do this.

From the post above it does seem that she has genuinely frightened you in that accident and is generally a handful of a horse at the best of times. It seems as though she is probably picking up on your nerves and reacting, which has turned your situation into a vicious circle.

I fully understand your reasoning for not turning out but this horse needs to expel her excess energy and I would, as others have said, give her at least 2 oppourtunities a day to work and or just kick her heels up and burn energy. I can't turn my horse out at the moment- I won't bore you with the reasons why. But she is being exercised at least twice a day, with at least one session of free schooling per day where she is actively encouraged to buck, bronc and let steam off in a safe place. She is either then ridden, lunged or free schooled again at the other end of the day. I cannot keep her in and safely ride her without letting her explode at least ocne a day. This keeps her sane, happy and safe. Do you have the facilites to be able to do that in the winter months? If not, it may be an idea to perhaps look for somewhere you can? Would you consider a yard move?

I think you also really need to look at your confidence levels and honestly ask yourself if you think you will get your confidence back with this mare. I think sometimes we get hung up because we really love a horse, even though they aren't perhaps the best match for us. At the end of the day, if it is important that you get some enjoyment out of it, maybe she is not the one for you. I really don't think you should think less of yourself if you decide that you do not want to perservere- I certainly wouldn't blame you. If you do decide that you do want to carry on, I think you need to get a really good trainer onboard who will ride, can get her going for you and then help you gradually get back on and then you start riding her regularly again.

If the behaviour continues I would definitely get a work up done.
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I do understand that she needs to get out, that is why as you have said she comes out everyday to lunge/kick her heels up/graze in hand etc.. in the school, I had mentioned this before earlier in the thread and she's been in for 5 weeks without any field turnout. And I do appreciate the advice.
 
JillA said:
It's really disappointing to see the antipathy to some of the suggestions people have made. There is usually no simple solution, but a long fascinating road of trial and error. What works for one horse won't for yours but you won't know that until you have tried it. The thing is, if you do embark on that long road, you will become a far better horseperson for it - you will learn to see things from your horse's viewpoint, you will gain enormously from the physiological and nutritional knowledge you will learn along the way, and you might very well end up with a horse who owes you its life - and knows it.
My horse was home bred, so never badly treated and scared but the most difficult horse I have ever backed. Even months and years afterwards he put me on the floor numerous times, attacked a dog in his paddock and was generally a right delinquent. I had broken and ridden away numerous others but he was a one off. I took him to clinics, read threads on forums (?fora?) and networked until I found some answers. There were some dead ends (Parelli being one!!) and several useful ideas, including magnesium deficiency, a very sensitive metabolism, sore feet and stiff muscles - but I have learned so much. Some horses are a real challenge and sent to teach us - don't give up on them.

Oh, I forgot to say - my horse is now a pleasure to ride in the school and we have had several classical dressage lessons.
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Thank you for your comment, I do appreciate the road is long I have been on it with pitstops for a long time, but contrary to belief on here I do have an open mind, just that most of the suggestions I have already tried, I was hoping that there may have been something else that I hadn't researched and tried.
 
Bonkers2 said:
If it is the one in the photo, it looks rather nice, and for all we know it might just be its current situation that is exacerbating its problems. Anyway I am sure OP won't sell or give it away, she has already made clear her views on these matters, and others.
I suspect she won't send the mare away for one reason or another, but lets hope she does see the light, for the sake of the horse.
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very judgemental of you once again,
 
Firstly, -hugs-, I know it stings to hear all of this.

I didn't realise she was stabled 24/7, I have to say that does sound like a recipe for disaster. I would be tempted to turn her away in a big big field and herd until the weather gets nice, just leave her to it!! If it stays this mild and she's not clipped she won't even need rugging.

If there's some niggling soft tissue injury that might be enough to sort it out. And it can give you some time to plan everything through and get some perspective. (so much easier to do when we're not dealing with them every day!)

You can then decide whether you want to go down the vet or trainer route. (if it was me I'd do the first and then the second)

The most important thing to do is not put yourself at risk. And get her outdoors, she has too much time to plot stood in a stable!
 
Hi Snopuma I'm sorry you're having all these problems with your horse. It's heart breaking when you put so much time, money and love into them and they make things so difficult and dangerous. I have the calmest horse but I have to say if he was in 24/7 he would be a complete basket case. Can you not just put a good rug on her and turn her out 24/7?
 
Funny I just checked back on this thread to see if the OP had replied yet as to why she hasn't / won't send the horse to an experienced person for a month or two to see if they can make any headway... and still no answer to that repeated question.
The amount of horses I have seen who come for training to a good yard with an experienced rider and can be turned around- and their owners can come and have lessons on them once they are on the right path, and rebuild lost confidence under supervision and with support... I just don't know why you are so reluctant to even entertain this idea OP?
 
I very much suspect there's nothing wrong with mare horse except that she's well bred, hasn't been out in 5 weeks and her owner is a fool.
A bit of lunging and in hand work over tarp is not going to settle her mind like full time turn out. Would her previous owner buy her back? Even after several years I'd have any of mine back if I found them in a predicament like you've put this poor horse in.
 
Agreed, I had a perfect ex racer for hacking, he was nearly bombproof, so trusting and loved to be out.
On the other hand I had a cob who was a nightmare to hack out. Stubborn, liked to rear, nap, buck and spin...I hate it when people stereotype breeds.
 
Gosh there's some nastiness going on in this thread :(

Couldn't you get a little Shetland or rescue pony/donkey or loan pony to keep her company while your other horse is on box rest? Then she could be outside.
I know you say she freaks out in the field in winter/autumn. Why not turn her out in the school with no rug on so she doesn't get sweaty? Maybe she needs to run about! If she's not used to being turned out and being a diva about it maybe you should just let her run round til she gets tired, then she might learn she's not gonna come in no matter what and may eventually settle.
Sorry if you've already tried this!
You say you lubge her a lot, does she buck in canter on the lunge too? If she does then it may just be a learned thing and she needs to stop it, if she bucks in canter make her canter round til it stops.
I'd definitely get a different instructor/trainer who will work with you a and make you ride the horse and teach you to solve her problems. There's no point in having a horse your instructor can ride but you can't. And if he can't teach you how to stop her naughtiness you need a different instructor.
I'd completely start afresh; new instructor, new plan, new management.
Some horses are just naturally a bit cheeky and when allowed to get away with it it becomes so ingrained into them it seems impossible to work it out.
In her previous home she may have got away with this behaviour every day for a long time.
 
I have read about five pages and I'm going to assume she has no medical issues.

First of all, the horse isn't getting any real turnout or exercise. I guarantee you that is the issue. As soon as you said that she isn't getting any turnout I didn't bother reading any further.

It sounds like there are no real rules in place, the horse walks all over you and you are terrified.

She's scared because you are. That's the crux of the matter.

I bought a gelding who had just turned five. I had him shipped to me without viewing him and as soon as he walked off the lorry he was a little ******.

He bit, bronced, reared, took off, kicked out at horses and other people, spun around me as I was leading him and charged at me. Two years later he was a little mannerly saint doing PC with a thirteen-year-old girl.

Your horse just really, really needs someone who is kind but confident. She doesn't need shouting at or punching, she just needs someone who isn't phased by quirkyness. I promise you she would be a different horse with the right handling!

Where are you based?
 
Lloyd45 said:
Hi Snopuma I'm sorry you're having all these problems with your horse. It's heart breaking when you put so much time, money and love into them and they make things so difficult and dangerous. I have the calmest horse but I have to say if he was in 24/7 he would be a complete basket case. Can you not just put a good rug on her and turn her out 24/7?
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I can't turn her out 24/7 even in the summer at my yard if they are out overnight then they have to come in, in the day.
 
sportsmansB said:
Funny I just checked back on this thread to see if the OP had replied yet as to why she hasn't / won't send the horse to an experienced person for a month or two to see if they can make any headway... and still no answer to that repeated question.
The amount of horses I have seen who come for training to a good yard with an experienced rider and can be turned around- and their owners can come and have lessons on them once they are on the right path, and rebuild lost confidence under supervision and with support... I just don't know why you are so reluctant to even entertain this idea OP?
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If you had read my thread properly you would see that I lost my job after my fall, consequently I don't have any spare money to spend on training at the moment.
 
lastchancer said:
I very much suspect there's nothing wrong with mare horse except that she's well bred, hasn't been out in 5 weeks and her owner is a fool.
A bit of lunging and in hand work over tarp is not going to settle her mind like full time turn out. Would her previous owner buy her back? Even after several years I'd have any of mine back if I found them in a predicament like you've put this poor horse in.
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what a thoroughly ignorant thing to say, I suggest you read the full thread before you put your off hand comments on here.
 
snopuma said:
what a thoroughly ignorant thing to say, I suggest you read the full thread before you put your off hand comments on here.
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I have read the whole thread, including your vile insults directed at people who are giving you sound advice. Hence the less than sympathetic response.

Turn her out with company 24/7 (she's a horse, she'll get used to it) leave her be for a month or two and she'll very probably be much, much more sensible when you come to work her again.
 
SpringArising said:
I have read about five pages and I'm going to assume she has no medical issues.

First of all, the horse isn't getting any real turnout or exercise. I guarantee you that is the issue. As soon as you said that she isn't getting any turnout I didn't bother reading any further.

It sounds like there are no real rules in place, the horse walks all over you and you are terrified.

She's scared because you are. That's the crux of the matter.

I bought a gelding who had just turned five. I had him shipped to me without viewing him and as soon as he walked off the lorry he was a little ******.

He bit, bronced, reared, took off, kicked out at horses and other people, spun around me as I was leading him and charged at me. Two years later he was a little mannerly saint doing PC with a thirteen-year-old girl.

Your horse just really, really needs someone who is kind but confident. She doesn't need shouting at or punching, she just needs someone who isn't phased by quirkyness. I promise you she would be a different horse with the right handling!

Where are you based?
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I agree with this poster.

I do understand that some ex racers won't be turned out in winter. My mum has one and he wants to come in under 10 mins and the one time we ignored him and hoped he would 'suck it up' he jumped out the field, escaped up the road and we had to get a search party out to look for him (luckily someone caught him in their driveway!).
Anyway he's fine to be out in the summer when its warm but in the winter he is lunged/ridden/walked in hand each day plus he has an hr in the round pen plus however long he will stay out for. My mum always does something to exercise him and keep him busy every day so really in the right hands no all day turnout shouldn't be an issue (although I agree it's the ideal).

Back to above post and what I said earlier I simply think this is the wrong horse for OP. I think they would both be happier if they parted ways. Riders move horses on all the time because they don't bring out the best in each other, look at Mary King and Chilli Morning. Sometimes if you love something you let them go.
 
lastchancer said:
I very much suspect there's nothing wrong with mare horse except that she's well bred, hasn't been out in 5 weeks and her owner is a fool.
A bit of lunging and in hand work over tarp is not going to settle her mind like full time turn out. Would her previous owner buy her back? Even after several years I'd have any of mine back if I found them in a predicament like you've put this poor horse in.
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Further back in the thread the OP says the previous owner offered to take the horse back in the early days because she had another buyer for her. The OP declined having already paid for saddler, vaccinations and passport change of ownership. Considering the cost of keeping an unsuitable horse on livery for 4yrs, the injuries to OP and resulting loss of her employment, I think that was a false economy.

snopuma said:
its abuse when I have said she has been seen by vets, physio and osteo and still they keep on, I am not dismissing the idea of a work up at the vets, but it is not how she displays, if she is tense or spooky she broncs, if she is calm and the sun is shining etc... she does not, I would assume that if she had a medical problem that she would present the same on every/most occasions regardless of her mood? I don't know maybe I have been thinking about this situation for nearly 4 years unlike the people on here who have decided whats wrong with her without seeing her or knowing her, and have decided this in a forum in the last 24hours, seriously who would know more about my mare? Its abuse when I have said I won't sell her, won't PTS and they say I should, they don't seriously think I would take that advice from a bunch of strangers on a forum? would they like it if I said it about their horses? I have been told by my YO that when she dies she wants to come back as one of my horses, because I care so much and they want for nothing, so go figure.
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It is not abuse, it is multiple people disagreeing with you all of whom have explained why.

snopuma said:
Why O Why do people keep on about turnout, at the moment I cannot turn her out, my other horse is on box rest, so she has no-one to go out with and when I do turn her out as soon as I let her go she wants to come in, I walk away and leave her for an hour at least she is out of sight of the yard and I muck out, then I sneak up to where I can see the gate and she can't see me and there she is waving a leg at the gate in a terrible state, sweating, covered in mud.
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I bought what seemed like a laid back horse, put him on DIY livery. Every morning I turned up for turnout and there he was bang bang banging the stable door over and over. After a month or so I said to some other liveries sort of joking, you all must hate me having to listen to this all the time I am surprised the YO has not asked me to leave. They were surprised and totally not bothered, saying he only starts that when he hears me walking down the road the rest of the time he is dead quiet. This a busy road with traffic and pedestrians but he could tell my steps from others. You hide to see what your mare is upto OP but she probably heard you coming from the moment you set foot on the lane to the field. I have two now and there are days when the second can go from calm, clean and grazing, to running about, sweated up, covered herself in mud splats and churn near the gate up in the ten min it takes to get the other one in and go back.
 
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