Example of a bad hobby breeder

Whilst I don't like bashing easily-identifiable individuals (unless they are total shysters) and rather than do a basic slagging off session - while I am sure they are lovely pet dogs, this is an example of a litter that I would NEVER promote or send puppy buyers in the direction of and here's why:

There is no mention of the sire or dam's age, health test results (if any). I mean hip and elbow scores etc, not a vet check.

For the same price or just a little more you can get a pup from generations of health tested parents, dogs who have been worked or shown lightly or heavily :p to prove they are indeed good examples of the breed.
The health tests for each dog would cost less than the individual pups in this advert.

If I wanted a GSD with absolutely no information on their background/breeding/health history (I mean on paper, not on the seller's say-so), rather than pay nearly £400, I would rescue or rehome.

German Shepherds are at risk of a number of inherited conditions. There is no excuse to not test for these, before breeding.

Also, there are nine puppies for sale in a planned litter. By the wording of the advert and the bumping of the post, it is clear that buyers were not lined up before the mating took place.
Good breeders will have a waiting list before the mating takes place.

I would say that in future, if these people want to breed GSDs, they start over again and invest in the health testing of their breeding stock.
 
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s4sugar said:
Apart from no papers, no health testing and no selection other than they own both parents?

& they have no intention of keeping a pup so bred purely to sell.
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Do all breeders keep a pup

I agree they arent the best bred however they have taken more steps than some breeders I have seen who are selling pups at 5/6 weeks with no worm flea injections and cant even see dad....

Meaning I can show you worse... :(
 
All good breeders breed with the intention of keeping a pup.

They may not get what they want eg. colour & sex or sometimes a mating just doesn't work and the desired quality isn't there but the aim should be to improve the breed and have the next generation.
 
Sometimes I read these threads and wonder if my friend was wrong to breed from her springer. This makes me think not and that she is/was just a 'hobby breeder'. I have no clue if the b*tch is registered or what her breedlines are (that's not to say she isn't, i just don't know this information). My friend bred two litters using the same stud dog I believe and all pups were snapped up practically before they'd come out! The went to friends and family in the main, some as working dogs some just as pets.

From the first litter, the stud dog owner's 'payment' was to keep one of the pups and from the 2nd litter my friend kept one. She is not breeding for hers anymore. Her dogs are lovely and were brought up with young kids, horses, dogs etc.

I guess what I am saying is, I don't have a issue with this type of breeding (ie a couple of litters) if there is demand for the dogs and relevant health checks are done.
 
CaveCanem said:
Whilst I don't like bashing easily-identifiable individuals (unless they are total shysters) and rather than do a basic slagging off session - while I am sure they are lovely pet dogs, this is an example of a litter that I would NEVER promote or send puppy buyers in the direction of and here's why:

There is no mention of the sire or dam's age, health test results (if any). I mean hip and elbow scores etc, not a vet check.

For the same price or just a little more you can get a pup from generations of health tested parents, dogs who have been worked or shown lightly or heavily :p to prove they are indeed good examples of the breed.
The health tests for each dog would cost less than the individual pups in this advert.

If I wanted a GSD with absolutely no information on their background/breeding/health history (I mean on paper, not on the seller's say-so), rather than pay nearly £400, I would rescue or rehome.

German Shepherds are at risk of a number of inherited conditions. There is no excuse to not test for these, before breeding.

Also, there are nine puppies for sale in a planned litter. By the wording of the advert and the bumping of the post, it is clear that buyers were not lined up before the mating took place.
Good breeders will have a waiting list before the mating takes place.

I would say that in future, if these people want to breed GSDs, they start over again and invest in the health testing of their breeding stock.
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Couldn't agree with you more Caveman. However even some of the backyard breeders or those that import pups from Eastern Europe have very good adverts to make them sound like they are the bee's knees to the untrained eye. I would say at least +75% of the adverts I see for my breed are from casual breeders the rest from known breeders that do take the dogs health and welfare seriously.
 
Yep, it's all about research, I have in the past and would always offer to again, help to cut through some of the jargon on GSD puppy ads - you have to keep your eyes open and your wits about you, when making any sort of purchase, puppies are no different.
 
I think this is a backyard breeder and not a responsible hobby breeder.

All backyard breeders doesn't do everything in the worst way possible, there is also, as in this example, those backyard breeders that, according to me, doesn't sound as if they think any further than "I own a dog and a bitch, they're fertile, they're the same breed, I think they're fantastic - woohoo - lets make fabulous puppies".


If this person just forgot to mention the sire and dam's Hip and Elbow Dysplasia test scores, how is it that they didn't mention that one of the two times they've bump replied on their own thread?
What have they done to make sure that they've avoided breeding GSD's with the inherited bleeding disorder Von Willebrand Disease?

I'm sorry, but managing to find out that puppies should be sold having had their first vaccination, being dewormed and a few other things, is just not enough for me.


:(
 
Whilst not the worst they certain are not anywhere near what I would call a responsible breeder. Also, apart from the points raised by others, that pup doesn't look very happy, 2 photos of her asleep, why none of her playing? I would also be a little concerned about her ears, very low and wide set, I would expect to see a lot more movement at 9 weeks.
 
Forgive me if I'm way out here, I know nothing about german shepherds, but the feet of the mother in pic 4 look wrong to me. The toes look to be extremely long, I wondered at first if the over long nails were causing them to just look that way, but even allowing for that the paws still appear to be long and weak looking.
 
I did notice her feet as well but that may be an OCD thing I have about feet and nails. I also saw a dog on FB today with very long nails and it made me wince.
My own dog has very long pasterns and easty/westy feet, as does his father, but touch wood it doesn't seem to impede either of them.
The long nails may be due to foot conformation (poor foot conformation can be genetic, the American lines are known for it) or lack of exercise on hard surfaces (which will naturally keep the nails short).
 
ladyt25 said:
Sometimes I read these threads and wonder if my friend was wrong to breed from her springer. This makes me think not and that she is/was just a 'hobby breeder'. I have no clue if the b*tch is registered or what her breedlines are (that's not to say she isn't, i just don't know this information). My friend bred two litters using the same stud dog I believe and all pups were snapped up practically before they'd come out! The went to friends and family in the main, some as working dogs some just as pets.

From the first litter, the stud dog owner's 'payment' was to keep one of the pups and from the 2nd litter my friend kept one. She is not breeding for hers anymore. Her dogs are lovely and were brought up with young kids, horses, dogs etc.

I guess what I am saying is, I don't have a issue with this type of breeding (ie a couple of litters) if there is demand for the dogs and relevant health checks are done.
Click to expand...

I do because no matter what the demand (and for those breeds there is always a demand as well as a VERY high turnover) they are still breeding dogs that have not had the basic of health tests. It costs less than the price of a puppy to health test most dogs its not a huge investment to make. Its great if they all go to members of the family but will she be able to take them back when things go wrong or help the owners if they go blind or have other health problems later on in life?? Dogs come back for numerous reason some down to death or marriage break up loss of home but they still need breeder help. Its easy to breed its not so easy to pick up the pieces....

I get so many enquiries from the KC website for spaniels which I don't actually breed but own, I can see why anyone would want to breed them its very lucrative.
 
So what about this THEORETICAL question

It took me about 16 months to find a chihuahua I liked as there are some shocking ones out there.

The cost of a Chi is ALOT and I cant afford another one.

I would like another, and as I chose her well, would I be wrong to breed her to a well bred chi if I was keeping the pup/pups?

And then have her speyed

:confused:
 
If she is registered, free of any breed related problems, generally healthy and of good temperament. And you use a well researched stud dog, I for one would not thing it wrong to breed her.
I would only say, (as I have been looking into the breed as well) that they can sometimes be a complicated breed to whelp, and i have come across litters as big
as 6.
Are you confident you can find good homes for puppies or prepared to own a pack, and how much are you prepared to risk your bitch if things do go wrong.
 
She is free from breed problems fab tempramented and very well behaved she loves poeple kids and is ok with other dogs which is very un breed like lol

Like I say she took a long time to chose a nice one

However she isnt registered as I found most of the KC ones HORRENDOUS trying to get them stupidly small they had googly eyes or eyes in oposite directions water on the brain parrot mouths bent front legs etc etc

She has won local dog shows but obvs cant enter anything special as she isnt KC......

But then would I become a 'back yard breeder'
 
Springy said:
So what about this THEORETICAL question

It took me about 16 months to find a chihuahua I liked as there are some shocking ones out there.

The cost of a Chi is ALOT and I cant afford another one.

I would like another, and as I chose her well, would I be wrong to breed her to a well bred chi if I was keeping the pup/pups?

And then have her speyed

:confused:
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So you were looking in the wrong places. There are some shocking ones but did you go to a championship show to meet the breeders?
It is a long time since I saw a really bad mouth or severe health problems in a well bred litter but since chis have small litters they don't get advertised beyond the breed clubs or are booked before birth.

To answer your question - yes you would be wrong to breed from her and a reputable stud owner will not accept her.

BTW well breed chis as pets are often cheaper than BYB bred ones and they don't breed for tiny as if too small the bitches cannot be bred from. About 4-5lbs is the aim for a bitch.
 
s4sugar said:
So you were looking in the wrong places. There are some shocking ones but did you go to a championship show to meet the breeders?
It is a long time since I saw a really bad mouth or severe health problems in a well bred litter but since chis have small litters they don't get advertised beyond the breed clubs or are booked before birth.

To answer your question - yes you would be wrong to breed from her and a reputable stud owner will not accept her.

BTW well breed chis as pets are often cheaper than BYB bred ones and they don't breed for tiny as if too small the bitches cannot be bred from. About 4-5lbs is the aim for a bitch.
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Honesty I have seen shocking litters.... aiming for the complete falsehood of teacup chi;s (I hate that phrase)

Mine is about 5lb long haired and lovely :)

I dont think im going to breed from her im waiting until her mum has another litter I think and going to choose one

Just was interested to know why it should only be KC people allowed to breed and only if they are keeping a pup to show..... there are good and bad in hobby and show breeders IMO
 
Oh and if dogs have to be KC to be bred then that would be bye bye to the jack russell.... :(

Ours was bred from a friend of my husbands and he is a super little guy... but then he wouldnt exist if all dogs should be kc to breed from :(
 
Off topic a little,sorry but at puppy training this week there was the most under-shot jawed,googly-eyed monstrosity of a pug that I have ever seen:( I know pugs are 'in fashion' at the moment (not one of my fave breeds anyway,sorry,jmo) but I spent half the class stopping myself from saying 'Good god,who sold you that? Who bred it? They need shooting!' I didn't,as obviously she picked it and loves it but I sat wondering whether she knew it's not sposed to look like that & is unhealthy... :( It was a bad tempered little ****** too.. :-/
 
Show breeders would not be aiming for tea cup chis, because they would not be able to show them.
Re JRTs, I do see your point, but the fact that any small terrier type seems to be called a Jack Russell nowadays does seem to suggest that some sort of breed standard wouldn't be a bad idea. (Before anyone points it out I am aware that the Parson JR is KC recognised but they are very different from the short legged terriers ). Also JRTs do have health problems, so health testing wouldn't be a bad idea. I had a JR years ago who had HD, I was concerned about her for a long time and the vet just said as a GSD breeder I was being neurotic (he wasn't being rude he was a good friend:p). However he eventually agreed to x ray and one hip was terrible, she had to have the femur head removed. I would never have considered asking about health tests when buying a JR pup, stupid as I hip scored my GSDs, so how many other terriers with bad hips came from that line.
 
As she is unregistered, then yes I would disagree with breeding her.
Being KC registered does not guarantee a good pup, as you
found. So long as the bitch and
sire fulfils KC criteria the litter can
be registered, it is then
neccessary to locate a good pup
within registered litters.
As S4sugar said, you weren't looking in the right places.
What KC registration does provide is protection for the brood bitch. There are many good people I'm sure, like yourself, who would not exploit your girl, sadly there are many many more who do. So for me personally, KC reg of a pedigree pup is first consideration, then I would move on to check the rest of my criteria. But no registration means I wouldn't even look at them.
I am hugely opposed to breeding unregistered. As has been said on another post, if a pedigree pup is not registered, then there will be a reason, and usually not a good one. At £15 per pup, no one can claim that reason to be financial.
 
I'm very new to this forum & so far that's the second i've seen picked out, transferred onto here & slated! Not to mention rude comments & assumptions re single pictures where you know nothing about the owner/situation. Apart from downright rudeness (eg. the girl who was told her horse was ugly), there's a young girl on another thread just who's pony is standing with it's head in, & she's being accused of rollkur! How can you tell from one photo is she has a tight rein - she's already said the pony just puts it's head in on it's own. I've also noticed people have started to post & put reasons for eg. fat horses or saddles not sitting right, because they know if they don't they'll be jumped on! In my own case, i was slated for my cob being overweight with nobody knowing the full circumstances eg. the fact that was attending hospital three times a week back then (& currently have been every day recently!) so maybe, despite giving him no feed & keeping him on a starvation paddock, maybe i didn't have time to exercise him every single day, but i did my best.

So, back to this advert - has anyone considered that maybe it isn't a bad breeder, it's just a breeder who isn't very good at writing adverts? Maybe the choke chain is on back to front because the person who exercises the dog is in a wheelchair or has another physical reason they have to lead the dog on the wrong side? The bitches nails don't long too badly overgrown - perhaps the vet doesn't trim them right back because they are black & she doesn't want to cut the quick & hurt the dog? Perhaps she as due to get them done the next day? They state they have only bred two litters, so they certainly don't appear to be overbreeding the bitch. Maybe the other 8 pups were all booked before birth & snapped up at 8 weeks & this one just isn't as good quality (perhaps he's a runt, bless him - he may still make an excellant pet!) hence being left last. You simply just don't know, just like you didn't know in that other advert with the young pony for sale, so you shouldn't be making assumptions, unless you are interested in buying the pups, & then of course, & then you'd be phoning to get the full story. Oh, and why does a breeder have to always keep a pup? Is that the law?! Every circumstances is different, perhaps a breeder has a dog with excellent lines & homes waiting etc but no space to keep more themselves?

Has anyone considered that they might get into trouble for reposting other people's adverts & slagging them off? Has anyone looked up the definition of slander?

It's such a shame because there appears to be so much knowledge here & some really nice people, with lots of useful input, but why can't everyone just be nice (or at least be careful or tactful!). If they have to be direct, at least do it when the person involved has actually asked for the opinion? Of course, it's different when it's blatant cruelty, but this, IMHO, & also other posts mentioned, just simply may not be.
 
Eatmyshorts, I simply stated why, as someone who is often asked for advice on purchasing a GSD puppy, why I would never send someone in that direction or endorse such an advert.
I have advised and helped (hopefully!) a number of people on this forum via PM in the past by offer or invite and will do so again.

There is NO excuse not to health test breeding GSDs in 2012 (the hip scoring scheme has been available since the 1970s) and if the health tests were carried out and the results were good, they would or should have been at the top of the advert.

I also replied to a question someone posted about the dog's feet, using my own experience, I don't think I slagged or slandered anyone.

Using the information posted on that ad, I wouldn't even make the phonecall and would advise potential buyers not to make the call either. For that money, they could have a puppy with EVERYTHING described in that ad, AND health tested parents and health and pedigree records.

I would happily give advice to anyone considering breeding a GSD litter, how to go about it and how to word their ad, including the poster of the ad in question.
 
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