Excessive urinating - add on from hfffffffff he was scoped post

[ester]

Rare in non-greys but tend to be more aggressive if they are present.

Oh absolutely, but you know me and correct info.
OP ask for a referral ASAP there is no point in us all speculating just from what we have come across. A scan next week may or may not show anything, but if it does it might not be the actual problem. It needs someone experienced in internal medicine looking at him and will be a much better spend of your insurance money.

 

[mcgreggor]

Internal melanoma/ tumour? Is there a correlation between the inconsistent eating/drinking and the pain indicators/rolling in the morning (ie I would expect increased pain indicators/rolling after a night where he has eaten his full ration). The dozing off be a side effect of not getting proper REM sleep due to the constant low level pain.

My father had an intestinal tumour written off by our useless doctor for years as indigestion; it got so bad that he would be doubled up in pain, sweating, on all fours trying to get comfortable whilst the ambulance was called yet again, he couldn't sleep and eating made it worse and he just couldn't bring himself to eat until absolutely necessary (so very sporadic). He ended up seeing a specialist, and having a section of intestine removed. Obviously i'm not in a position to diagnose, merely drawing similarities here. If the horse was mine I would want a new vet and a referral to a vet hospital. Just because someone is qualified doesn't mean they are competent.

 

[LaurenBay]

I can't and won't guess to what is going on.

But below are the facts:

Your Horse has been in pain for 3 months (possibly longer)
You have had a vet out over this time and they are still unable to pinpoint the problem
You are using up your insurance claim time and money waiting for a prognosis
Your Horse meanwhile is still very much in pain

Give up on your vet and insist your Horse go to a proper equine hospital for a full workup. Get the diagnosis and go from there.

I feel for you OP, I have retired my first Horse as I had so many issues with her. Its not fair but its life. Please please listen to the members on here and get your Horse some help ASAP.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I cannot stress enough though, he is my first so everything is a huge deal, ive been told he isn't the type and he is taking the mick but since the other night opinions have changed. Its hard as 95% of the time he is behaving perfectly normal, happy out, happy in ect

Unless you were told this by the vet, take no notice. If it was the vet, change vets immediately. This horse needs some proper diagnostics done at an equine specialist hospital imo. It is difficult because he is your first horse and you haven't had him long but he is trying, with the symptoms you list, to tell you that he is in pain for some reason. Your job is to find the right person to interpret what he is telling you. A good vet will do that.

Horses, as prey animals, are very good at hiding their illnesses for 95% of the time, as in the wild illness makes them vulnerable.

 

[FestiveFuzz]

OP apologies if you've mentioned it in one of your previous threads but where are you based? If you're local I'd be happy to come hand-hold/help interpret the vet speak for you. I had a hellish time with a new horse last year and know first hand how hard it is to take things in when you're already stressed/upset. My OH was invaluable in helping decipher vet feedback/next steps throughout an incredibly upsetting and tumultuous process purely because he was one step removed from it all and was therefore able to ask the right questions, whereas most of the time I was struggling not to break down in tears. I'm sure you're already surrounded by people in RL that can support in this way, but if not the offer is there.

 

[Horsekaren]

i have written every symptom down and sent the video to the vet.
he will have his ultrasound and see if anything flares up, there maybe some other tests we can do whilst there on Monday. If we are not any nearer to having a definite cause i will ask about a referral for tests.
Because he seems to hide his symptoms when the vet is there i am going to try and grab some more videos to take with us.
i know i'm asking for trouble looking for answers on here but i just like to have an idea of possibilities. I feel at the moment his symptoms are so varied and vast it could literally be anything from a smeg bean to cancer. Its just the Succeed test that has narrowed it down to an area. I will ask for a second one of these too!

Thanks for everyones in put. I will have the scan and then take it from there. If we are still moving forward blindly i will ask about referrals for tests.

 

[ester]

It is the very variation and vastness of his symptoms that means a referral is being suggested to an expert in internal medicine.

Please do not think that the succeed test has narrowed it down at all, they are not considered a great test anyway and as I said even if there is something going on there it may well not be the whole story. I hope he remains ok until Monday.

 

[Horsekaren]

OP apologies if you've mentioned it in one of your previous threads but where are you based? If you're local I'd be happy to come hand-hold/help interpret the vet speak for you. I had a hellish time with a new horse last year and know first hand how hard it is to take things in when you're already stressed/upset. My OH was invaluable in helping decipher vet feedback/next steps throughout an incredibly upsetting and tumultuous process purely because he was one step removed from it all and was therefore able to ask the right questions, whereas most of the time I was struggling not to break down in tears. I'm sure you're already surrounded by people in RL that can support in this way, but if not the offer is there.

Thank you that is really kind, but i take my partner with me, nothing has seemed to be too serious that i'm in tears just yet. The vets only ever have positive news so i feel happier when they come, its only after when things don't improve of something else crops up i worry again As i have said before with the blood results the vets arn't overly concerned (both vets have seen him)as everything is normal apart from what ever it is that shows inflammation which is slightly high and has been coming down since steroids.

The bloods seem to get better each time which doesn't help my cause when i try and explain what he is doing. i suppose a lot of this has started since the steroids started so they might even be part of the problem :/ The same with his episode the day after the scope which i pushed for, that may have aggravated his stomach and caused his upset as he has never shown any behavior like that before. It could just be so many things!

roll on Monday

 

[HeyMich]

Please do not think that the succeed test has narrowed it down at all, they are not considered a great test anyway and as I said even if there is something going on there it may well not be the whole story.

I totally agree with this.

Traces of blood for hind gut ulcers is terribly misleading. My vet told me just the other day that the gut system is so long an complex that there are bound to be traces of blood for one reason or another. In my opinion, any indicators of ulcers in your horse (stomach or hind gut) are purely a symptom of pain, and the route cause of pain is likely to be elsewhere.

2nd vet opinion or vet hosp strongly recommended!

 

[HeyMich]

roll on Monday

Monday is still 4 days away! Please call your vet (or another one!) in the meantime if ANYTHING changes.

 

[LaurenBay]

Monday is a long time to wait for a Horse in pain. I really hope he doesn't get colicky again in the meantime, if he does then please insist your vet see him.

 

[Rowreach]

The vets only ever have positive news so i feel happier when they come, its only after when things don't improve of something else crops up i worry again As i have said before with the blood results the vets arn't overly concerned (both vets have seen him)as everything is normal apart from what ever it is that shows inflammation which is slightly high and has been coming down since steroids.


roll on Monday

There is nothing "normal" about the range of symptoms he is presenting. I would not be waiting till Monday.

 

[ester]

Quite, if the vets only have positive news on this horse then I wonder if they are just really keen to reassure you, given his symptoms even if his bloods were entirely normal I would be concerned, as bloods are only a small part of a very big picture.

If it were just the urination straining it might be a bean, realistically with all those symptoms the chances of it being just that are slim to nil. Frankly his initial presentation was odd, and didn't directly point to anything and all of the follow up symptoms have followed the same ilk. Right now he is a puzzle to be solved and you need someone good at puzzles.

 

[jgmbng]

Do you soak his hay ? Mine can tolerate only soaked hay, unsoaked he has all the colic type symptoms. He is sensitive to most processed feeds but can have Alfalfa as its low in sugar and starch.
Could you cut everything back and start with soaked hay only ?

 

[Horsekaren]

Quite, if the vets only have positive news on this horse then I wonder if they are just really keen to reassure you, given his symptoms even if his bloods were entirely normal I would be concerned, as bloods are only a small part of a very big picture.

If it were just the urination straining it might be a bean, realistically with all those symptoms the chances of it being just that are slim to nil. Frankly his initial presentation was odd, and didn't directly point to anything and all of the follow up symptoms have followed the same ilk. Right now he is a puzzle to be solved and you need someone good at puzzles.

i don't think they are really trying to reassure me, well it doesn't feel that way... if they are they arn't trying very hard. I cant lie to them either, they ask how he is doing and i have to be honest and say he seems happier because he isnt as bad as he was.

Every time they come all vitals are normal and its just the one blood part that is high. He isnt making it easy for any of us, including the vet. Of course if anything changes i will call the vet.
I dont really even know if the other day was colicky he was so pent up in his stable, rearing, spinning, barging the door and weeing. He stomped at his belly once and he appeared to try and poo but couldn't (vet said this could be gas from the scope) he has pood in his stable no more than 1 hour earlier and poo'd again two hours after i had the call. He was in alone but usually comes in first so i don't know if something scared him. To me its seems odd that this was after the scope, maybe it was gass and the wee's were nervous wee's. The arousal of his willy when being walked around too was odd. But saying that we have never seen him colic so maybe that is normal for him :/
The fact he was starved for the scope im sure must cause issues in its self as everything has to start working again.
I have only ever seen him so pent up in his stable once and that was stress as he has just moved stables and both his stable neighbors walked out the yard for a hack.

Honestly i think i needed to train to be a vet before i brought this horse. He is so special and kind but he sure isnt an easy first horse... he is in so many ways but in others he is so hard I cant give up on him and im trying my best to help him. I appreciate all of the advise, list made, videos at the ready and will be a lot more pushy with the vet if we dont get anywhere

 

[Horsekaren]

Do you soak his hay ? Mine can tolerate only soaked hay, unsoaked he has all the colic type symptoms. He is sensitive to most processed feeds but can have Alfalfa as its low in sugar and starch.
Could you cut everything back and start with soaked hay only ?

His feeds have always been simple-
He is on soaked Hay - adlib

I would remove feed but i need to get sterroids in him so he has to have a feed.
This is just fast fiber, magnesium and Protexin Gut balancer.

I have taken him off Acid ease since Monday and i have removed the grass pellets.

During his episode i had removed the magnesium from his diet slowly, so this may have been a contributor as its known for calming.

 

[Goldenstar]

The thing not finding anything when you scope do blood test etc is not a good thing when the horse is still not right .
It means you are running out of things it’s not only leaving a lot of very nasty things it might be.

 

[LaurenBay]

Honestly i think i needed to train to be a vet before i brought this horse. He is so special and kind but he sure isnt an easy first horse... he is in so many ways but in others he is so hard I cant give up on him and im trying my best to help him. I appreciate all of the advise, list made, videos at the ready and will be a lot more pushy with the vet if we dont get anywhere

I do have sympathy for you OP. As I said previously I had loads of issues with my mare and she was my first Horse. I waited for years and years for my very own Horse and saved every penny I could. She was everything I could have dreamed of but had soundness issues from the get go and one thing after another. I retired her last year age 12. She owes me nothing so will be with me as a glorified lawn mower til the end of her days. So I get where you are coming from. It is also very hard to be firm with vets as we have no choice but to place our trust in them as that is what are are there for and we know no better, however I have learnt over the past 6 years to go with a gut instinct and I am not afraid of ruffling feathers now and getting a second opinion if needs be.

 

[ester]

I think it depends what you define colic, intestinal pain or abdominal pain which could well be coming from somewhere else. He wasn't classically intestinally colicy but he was clearly very uncomfortable. I think it highly unlikely the wees were a result of nerves with everything else that has gone on with him.

have your vets seen that video?

 

[Horsekaren]

I think it depends what you define colic, intestinal pain or abdominal pain which could well be coming from somewhere else. He wasn't classically intestinally colicy but he was clearly very uncomfortable. I think it highly unlikely the wees were a result of nerves with everything else that has gone on with him.

have your vets seen that video?

yes, i have sent to my vet and the emergency vet i called at the time and both said it could be gass passing from the scope and as he had started eating, pooing and calmed down they wasn't too concerned.
He stopped that after about 20 mins and then snoozed standing up in his stable :/

 

[jgmbng]

Fast fibre doesn't agree with mine. Is it possible it is too high in sugar/starch for your pony, or that he has an intolerance to one of the other ingredients ?.
Its horrible when you aren't able to find out what's wrong, and despite months of investigations it is only through my own research and experimenting that I have managed to get my pony comfortable.
I hope you get to the bottom of your horses problems.

 

[ester]

FF has a combined sugar starch of 7.5%, it is about the lowest you can get in a feed!?

 

[Horsekaren]

I wonder about feed as this is another thing that has increased in winter. Summer he just had a handful once a day for his magnesium. Now he has almost two scoops a day pumped filled with steroids and balancers.
I don't like messing about with feed but it has crossed by mind if this possibly isn't agreeing with him. But tbh I'm scared to change anything at the moment

 

[Horsekaren]

Fast fibre doesn't agree with mine. Is it possible it is too high in sugar/starch for your pony, or that he has an intolerance to one of the other ingredients ?.
Its horrible when you aren't able to find out what's wrong, and despite months of investigations it is only through my own research and experimenting that I have managed to get my pony comfortable.
I hope you get to the bottom of your horses problems.

What signs was your pony showing that they feed wasn't agreeing with them? X

 

[Leo Walker]

You need to forget about the succeed test for now. That is not the answer. Mine had hind gut issues when I got him. It was secondary to fairly nasty pain elsewhere. We removed the pain, tweaked his diet and it cleared up very quickly. He certainly wasnt exhibiting anything like the issues yours is either. There was also a very definite and short dated end point set on trying to resolve it. The next step was a vet workup. Mine went out showing and won reserve champion and was being schooled five times a week improving every time while this was going on. His only symptoms were not moving straight behind, bouts of grumpiness and not being keen on his legs being handled. He would still of being going in if it hadnt been resolved quickly because I knew he wasnt right. If he had at any point started behaving like yours is then he would have gone in immediately.

 

[Leo Walker]

What signs was your pony showing that they feed wasn't agreeing with them? X

This is definitely not a feed issue. Please stop grasping at straws and get this pony looked at by a competent vet who is working with you to find the problem.

 

[ester]

I agree, and as for symstoms I would be very surprised if a horse whose feed wasnt agreeing with them was falling asleep when standing as a result. There is nothing you are feeding that is likely to cause that sort of extreme reaction (and many of the other symptoms you have described).

 

[jgmbng]

FF has a combined sugar starch of 7.5%, it is about the lowest you can get in a feed!?

It is but I remember reading on here about a PSSM pony also being reactive to FF.
Just trying to help like everyone else.

 

[jgmbng]

What signs was your pony showing that they feed wasn't agreeing with them? X

He shows many of the symptoms that you have listed.

 

[ester]

Did he lose balance when sleeping on the yard?
was he urinating excessively?

A lot of things could be responsible for most of the symptoms on the list, but I am really struggling to see a feed intolerance causing either of those two.

A PSSM horse may have been reactive to FF but if they were it wasn't because of the sugar and starch content.