Exercises for thoracic sling ?

[AntiPuck]

I have thought about alternative saddles - but he's young / v recently broken, spends lots of time in the field playing on 2 legs (not had that ridden yet but only a matter of time) currently totally round / barrel shaped so I'm nervous of security in a non tree saddle.
I've also read that they are as hard to fit as treed ones - to get the padding right is essential. Maybe that's not right !

My youngster is also partial to spending a bit of time on two legs, and spinning, going sideways, and backwards at pace, and stability isn't an issue with the TCS - weirdly, I often feel more stable than I did in her treed saddle, as I think sometimes the blocks get in the way and all of the 'stuff' between you and the horse can make you feel a bit perched and vulnerable, especially if a very wide horse. The exception has been going up steep hills, I have to hold the mane for that at the moment, but that's probably partly due to my crap riding. You could use a sticky-topped pad, if you wanted, but i've not felt the need so far.

There's no fitting required with a TCS, as they're one size fits all - you just pad for the comfort/personal preference of yourself and the horse. I use a normal Nuumed numnah and a Le Mieux half pad, for example, not much different to what many would use with a traditional saddle. Just depends how bony you/horse are. It's nowhere near as hard as fitting treed saddles!

They have a Facebook group for users of the saddle, if you wanted to do some reading https://www.facebook.com/groups/607475247327588

 

[stangs]

I had wondered about a driving harness and getting him to pull a tyre / pallet to build front end (he long reins well and is very biddable so practicalities of that would be OK)

Anthony Paalman in Training Showjumpers writes "a weak back can often be improved by light harrowing work (three times per week for approximately 30 minutes). I emphasises "light" work, as working too hard might develop a roach back." Do with that what you will - the book's a little out-dated in places - but a little bit of pulling wouldn't do him any harm. Variation is always good.

Long reining - any benefit to this over riding and leading (other than my personal fitness)

Easier to keep the head straight when you've got two reins, not to mention getting horse used to venturing out "on his own".
.

 

[sbloom]

But pulling has to be done from the shoulders...not what I'd recommend. And the TCS has caused issues in plenty of horses I've seen, quite a lot of bodyworkers are completely against their use. I know it works for some, and some bodyworkers like them, but the ones I know and trust would run a mile from one.

Long lining - useful for fitness but so often done IN compensatory movement patterns, like polework. Why not just fix the patterns?

Ride and lead - if the horse moves straight, or at least alternate the side you lead from.

 

[sbloom]

Adding (as I seem to have missed a ton of replies): think of postural work as bodybuilding, it IS work, it's hard for them and is definitely not stretching. You need a postural programme for listing the TS, almost everything else has a good chance of building ON the asymmetry and simply make the back look a bit better, knocking problems into other parts of the body.

In the masterclass I recommend there have been discussions about how people keep the horses fit, a bareback pad for offroad hacking can work, or a rehab saddle for a period. Not your ill fitting saddle, not your final saddle, but something just for now, though I'd recommend more in hand and minimal ridden.

Walking slowly over very irregular ground, letting the horse move itself, sitting in light seat without grabbing the mouth, can help a little with building the TS. The saddle fit must allow the horse to lift right under the rider.

 

[sbloom]

I don't have any beef with ST at all, that wasn't my point at all ?.

Ok thanks for the info 3.5 hours would be a struggle personally but it clearly works for others ?

Just divide it up and see it as a ton of content for the money...? But of course, horses for courses.

 

[Polos Mum]

But pulling has to be done from the shoulders...not what I'd recommend. And the TCS has caused issues in plenty of horses I've seen, quite a lot of bodyworkers are completely against their use. I know it works for some, and some bodyworkers like them, but the ones I know and trust would run a mile from one.

Long lining - useful for fitness but so often done IN compensatory movement patterns, like polework. Why not just fix the patterns?

Ride and lead - if the horse moves straight, or at least alternate the side you lead from.

I really appreciate you taking the time to reply. Just want to make sure I understand that you wouldn't do any aerobic exercise at all? just strengthening in the stable by stretches / body building. How long would you avoid active human prompted exercise (he's turned out 24/7 so helps himself to lots of racing about with his similar aged companions!)

 

[SEL]

Haven't caught up on this thread for a day but I'm doing a year long diploma in equine massage techniques so for me signing up to courses is both personal interest and help from a study perspective.

Personal opinion Celeste's work won't be your cup of tea if;
- you really got on with and understood Marijke's ST work. I struggled with it but will probably go back to my notes at some point with more knowledge now. Celeste gave me a lightbulb moment re: some of the ST movements
- you want an easy "follow steps 1-10" type guide or instruction. That's not what she's pulled together (& a friend who has signed up is grumping about that)
- you ride in a tight outline!! They're all about working towards self carriage.

It isn't for everyone (what course is??) but I've got a pony in KS rehab and a weak 4yo with an upside down neck so for me it's been really helpful.

 

[sbloom]

I really appreciate you taking the time to reply. Just want to make sure I understand that you wouldn't do any aerobic exercise at all? just strengthening in the stable by stretches / body building. How long would you avoid active human prompted exercise (he's turned out 24/7 so helps himself to lots of racing about with his similar aged companions!)

Not in the stable, this is about movement (though much can be done on the yard and in fact every time you move your horse in the slightest you should be applying the lessons you'll be learning)

I'm not expert enough to answer that, like I say there are options for doing aerobic work, and discussions on how other people are managing with good doers. it's all about HOW the work is done - once your horse can move without engaging incorrect systems you move onto a new exercise or form of work but revert if they are unable to do it with the correct sets of muscles. It's absolutely black and white in that way and completely sensible, why would we want our horses to carry on moving incorrectly...

He won't even be moving correctly in turnout of course but yes, that will help with some aerobic work, thankfully!

But it's sure going to be more of an issue for good doers. If you can longline without touching the mouth more than you absolutely have to, if they will move straight with ride and lead. I would not lunge, it can absolutely be used by skillful people, and you could choose to get the Manolo Mendez DVD which is lunging focused, but it's not lunging as you know it, if you lunge as you know it your horse will still likely be in poor "form". it will take just as much brain power and time, but my instinct is it won't break things down in such a simple way.

Hope that helps, unfortunately it's one of those programmes where there isn't a lot of info outside of actually being in the masterclass but I'll answer questions where I can!

 

[tallyho!]

rather than not a fan I just thought it wasn't helpful for young wobbly babies. Happy to stand correctly.
He will lunge and long rein nicely, I tend to go for long reining as I can go up and down hills and get him used to traffic and avoid joint wear and boredom by not going round in circles.

He also won't have a bit (mouth too small according to dentist) so we're in headcollar, so I can use two reins to lunge but not as one the bridle as you might hope

Well no I don’t want to correct anyone, you have to do what you think is right. I found a different way of lunging, much different to how I was originally taught and what I read in old books. If you can get a copy of Klaus Schoneichs ‘The correct movement in horses’ buy it. It’s a good place to start. You don’t have to go in circles… that only helps you keep the shoulder straight… you can do any shape you want.

 

[Fieldlife]

Yeah though i am generally not one for packaged programmes in general ,( sorry to the OP this is going off topic a bit). i remember when ST became a craze on here and elsewhere and honestly i struggled to see why it was different to good quality small c classical training/schooling tbh, dabbled with some of the material and that sort of reinforced my opinion. though i know others found it helpful to perhaps join some dots that their regular training or reading weren't helping with. so it's different strokes for different folks, but all the more important that some tasters are available in that case! though understand that may only important be to anyone wanting to make a living from it. i really like the Ritter approach to this, they give away enough in bitesized chunks for someone new to them to get a good feel for what they do.



that's good to know. though i'm not sure what is promised exactly and if it's hours long videos or little bits you can dip into when you have some free time etc. it is clearly not her problem though. anyway as i'm sidetracking i will butt out now

The first live video is 3.5 hours long. But they don’t recommend starting there anymore as are more succinct guides.

I listened to the long lives whilst driving they don’t need the visuals. The shorter practical videos you do need to have a screen.

There’s also an extra mini course by a different trainer (an extra £25 I think) can only buy after main course, that sets out what aiming to do very clearly.

I joined about 6 weeks ago. Coincided with my horse doing 17 days of non ridden walk exercise from injury.

I’ve ridden two horses to BD medium, and I found course really useful. I didn’t get on with straightness training or TRT. It’s been Value for money for me in terms of a) improving my horse b) improving our relationship (he does a lot of yawning and releasing)
c) giving me new tools and understanding

I do a fair bit of groundwork already- mix of classical in hand and Jec Ballou 55 corrective exercises. Plus Masterson Method - massage / release work.

So for me it’s fitted in quite nicely.

 

[SEL]

I really appreciate you taking the time to reply. Just want to make sure I understand that you wouldn't do any aerobic exercise at all? just strengthening in the stable by stretches / body building. How long would you avoid active human prompted exercise (he's turned out 24/7 so helps himself to lots of racing about with his similar aged companions!)

I'm mixing it up. The 11yo KS pony needs to be exercised for the sake of her asthma and her waistline so she's hacking. Pretty much in walk as she's changing shape and I need to sort saddle.

My youngsters attention span for doing exercises is in the milliseconds ? My roads aren't safe enough to long line annoyingly but drivers give me more space if I lead him out in hand. I'm trying to do that avoiding the upside down neck and getting him to stretch forward and down. He will usually then focus when we get home on keeping his head down while I see if he can step back with doing a giraffe impression. So he's getting aerobic exercise whilst I try and slip in bits to improve his posture.

If you go down the TCS route try before you buy. Gave me awful backache when I borrowed one.

 

[DawnS]

I have noticed that many practitioners (e.g. Jec Ballou) recommend backing up, BUT only if in good posture, with head down. How do you achieve this without pulling on the horse's mouth, if their natural inclination when stepping back is to brace the neck? I tried with a lickit but he thought we were doing stretches - didn't really compute that he was allowed to move his feet too.

 

[sbloom]

I have noticed that many practitioners (e.g. Jec Ballou) recommend backing up, BUT only if in good posture, with head down. How do you achieve this without pulling on the horse's mouth, if their natural inclination when stepping back is to brace the neck? I tried with a lickit but he thought we were doing stretches - didn't really compute that he was allowed to move his feet too.

You don't, you first train the reaction, to keep the brach, the underneck muscle, switched off. It's a completely different way of looking at things, backing up, even circles, are only any use if the horse is balancing itself correctly, and this needs to be developed. You also then need the horse to be able to step in (adduct) and out (abduct) - without these being developed so they're equally strong/flexible then they can't be straight backing up either. It's an exercise for further down the line.

It's why I love Celeste, the whole of the first part is tips and tools to switch off the neck!

So many stretches put horses into a position where their TS is dropped sadly, my understanding is that many of the low ones are completely counterproductive.

 

[DawnS]

You don't, you first train the reaction, to keep the brach, the underneck muscle, switched off. It's a completely different way of looking at things, backing up, even circles, are only any use if the horse is balancing itself correctly, and this needs to be developed. You also then need the horse to be able to step in (adduct) and out (abduct) - without these being developed so they're equally strong/flexible then they can't be straight backing up either. It's an exercise for further down the line.

It's why I love Celeste, the whole of the first part is tips and tools to switch off the neck!

So many stretches put horses into a position where their TS is dropped sadly, my understanding is that many of the low ones are completely counterproductive.

Thanks, she was recommended by my saddle fitter too so I have a podcast from her lined up for my long car journey on Thursday and if it sounds good that'll be another $150 into the horse-shaped hole!

 

[sbloom]

Thanks, she was recommended by my saddle fitter too so I have a podcast from her lined up for my long car journey on Thursday and if it sounds good that'll be another $150 into the horse-shaped hole!

Oh yes, that bottomless pit!

 

[maya2008]

Personally, my experience with horses has been that if they aren’t muscling up by themselves, you have an issue somewhere. A 3 year old just out of the field should have enough muscle for a saddle to fit, and a 5 year old definitely so. Just because a horse is young and hasn’t been ridden, doesn’t mean they haven’t hurt themselves in the field at some point/developed hock arthritis/have a genetic issue like pssm etc. Now obviously, just like with human physio, we can do exercises to help them build the muscle to compensate, but it’s just something to bear in mind (because often knowing what the issue is, can give you the tools to end up with a happy, healthy horse).

Anyway… re saddles I always back them in a bareback pad as it’s soft and gentle. Then find a saddle that fits - treed or treeless. Our current 5 year old is a child’s pony so was backed in a bareback pad, switched to Thorn pad while we sourced a saddle, and now is in a Thorowgood saddle (which helps greatly with the sideways spooks). I would never ride in anything that doesn’t fit, but a good saddler can recommend pads to help while muscles are being built. My pssm pony (who came back into work after an operation and 9 months off with less muscle than my saddler had ever seen on a horse) liked an equitex pad under hers (saddle was obviously fitted to take account for the width of the pad).

Regarding your bit issue, I have backed in a Dr Cook style crossunder bridle without issues (that one had been messed up before I got her and was terrified of bits). It’s about as effective as a snaffle. I don’t see how a horse’s mouth could be too small for a bit though - our 12hh 5 year old has a teeny tiny mouth and he’s quite happy with a 4.5” single jointed curved snaffle. It fits just fine in the extremely small gap between his teeth, and he’s quite happy with it in. Does yours still have wolf teeth?

 

[Reacher]

Thanks, she was recommended by my saddle fitter too so I have a podcast from her lined up for my long car journey on Thursday and if it sounds good that'll be another $150 into the horse-shaped hole!

Do you have a link to the podcast please?

 

[sbloom]

Do you have a link to the podcast please?

There are a few https://duckduckgo.com/?q=podcast+celeste+leilani+lazaris&t=vivaldi&ia=web

 

[Reacher]

There are a few https://duckduckgo.com/?q=podcast+celeste+leilani+lazaris&t=vivaldi&ia=web

Thankyou ?

 

[Polos Mum]

Does yours still have wolf teeth?

Hi thanks - I'm conscious there might be other things going on but he's like a wobbly bendy jelly so even trotting up is hard to see anything meaningful. I hope when he is in a bit of work I can see a bit more consistently what's what

he's anglo arab x appaloosa and 14.1 so tiny mouth. then his pallet is very narrow and high. He had his wolf teeth out (one was massive and the other tiny and wobbly). It was my BADET qualified dentist who said he would be might well be more comfortable bitless with the shape he has. In a headcollar with reins I can hack safely through traffic (pull in between parked cars to let people go by, stop at junctions etc.) and I can ride the shapes I want to in the school (only in walk currently due to weakness!)

So I'm trying not to change too many things at once. - no need for a bit if he's safe in a headcollar (IMHO)

 

[SEL]

I have noticed that many practitioners (e.g. Jec Ballou) recommend backing up, BUT only if in good posture, with head down. How do you achieve this without pulling on the horse's mouth, if their natural inclination when stepping back is to brace the neck? I tried with a lickit but he thought we were doing stretches - didn't really compute that he was allowed to move his feet too.

That's always been my issue with some of the "standard" exercises for topline. There's nothing like having a horse with a muscle disease to show you how hard it is to do many of these exercises properly!!

It's interesting trying to see how all 4 of my horses react to Celeste's initial guidance of switching off the neck muscles. The draft horse (literally all neck) does it well despite being retired for years with dodgy legs. The pony with KS finds that bit easy but retaining the relaxation whilst doing anything else hard. The youngster is all a bit over stimulated with ground work in general but we've had some good moments and the PSSM mare will drop her head on command but every single muscle is still tight - so ask for anything and she braces again. I tirelessly followed Jec and physio programmes for her over years but it's now blindingly obvious that until I can sort out head and neck nothing in the rest of her body will be right.

Never stop learning with horses!!

 

[Fieldlife]

That's always been my issue with some of the "standard" exercises for topline. There's nothing like having a horse with a muscle disease to show you how hard it is to do many of these exercises properly!!

It's interesting trying to see how all 4 of my horses react to Celeste's initial guidance of switching off the neck muscles. The draft horse (literally all neck) does it well despite being retired for years with dodgy legs. The pony with KS finds that bit easy but retaining the relaxation whilst doing anything else hard. The youngster is all a bit over stimulated with ground work in general but we've had some good moments and the PSSM mare will drop her head on command but every single muscle is still tight - so ask for anything and she braces again. I tirelessly followed Jec and physio programmes for her over years but it's now blindingly obvious that until I can sort out head and neck nothing in the rest of her body will be right.

Never stop learning with horses!!

That is fascinating. My current horse gives lots of releasing and yawning. Celeste says he’s reluctant to fully switch off his upper neck, though I think it is improving. He finds it fairly easy to travel with nose on the floor. But hasn’t necessarily been doing so properly, as there is a disconnect point too.

I am another who has done a lot of Jec / physio / ground pole exercises extensively. And I don’t necessarily think are bad. But can see you need to have the right muscle functioning first.

Definitely never stop learning.

If anyone who is interested in the thoracic sling / rehabbing and improving posture wants to join my personal FB closed group blog (tracking my progress with my horse and a safe place for general supportive discussion) PM me. You would need to be on Facebook (as is a closed facebook group).

 

[Fieldlife]

I have noticed that many practitioners (e.g. Jec Ballou) recommend backing up, BUT only if in good posture, with head down. How do you achieve this without pulling on the horse's mouth, if their natural inclination when stepping back is to brace the neck? I tried with a lickit but he thought we were doing stretches - didn't really compute that he was allowed to move his feet too.

I've alway been taught to ask for rein back with head low in good posture and no bracing. Whether from Jec / physio / my in hand trainer etc. My understanding is you ask for a lowered neck, then you ask for a single step back. If brace / raise neck, you stop ask for soften and neck lowering, then ask for another step. Once ask for as many steps back as horse can maintain good posture and soft neck. If lose posture, stop correct, and ask again.

This I think is common practice independent from Celeste.

 

[sbloom]

I've alway been taught to ask for rein back with head low in good posture and no bracing. Whether from Jec / physio / my in hand trainer etc. My understanding is you ask for a lowered neck, then you ask for a single step back. If brace / raise neck, you stop ask for soften and neck lowering, then ask for another step. Once ask for as many steps back as horse can maintain good posture and soft neck. If lose posture, stop correct, and ask again.

This I think is common practice independent from Celeste.

I think it is, but it usually doesn't quantify how the neck should be, after all Celeste's work shows that different horses need different head carriages to achieve relaxation of the brach., so it teaches us to look for the right outcome, instead of focusing on method ("lower the head"). For instance a very low neck position switches the upper neck back on for most horses, there's a range in the middle where most horses fall.

 

[Fieldlife]

I think it is, but it usually doesn't quantify how the neck should be, after all Celeste's work shows that different horses need different head carriages to achieve relaxation of the brach., so it teaches us to look for the right outcome, instead of focusing on method ("lower the head"). For instance a very low neck position switches the upper neck back on for most horses, there's a range in the middle where most horses fall.

Yes, I think I knew most of this bit for rein back etc before Celeste. Various things have set out and demo-ed good rein back posture.

But Celeste's switching off the whole underneck to allow thoracic sling activation is a whole further step.

 

[TPO]

I think the really good horsemen (& women) *know* without being aware or verbalising it.

For example Buck Brannaman holds the Halter in a specific way, and having previously taught release to pressure, the head is lowered and the horse steps back correctly. In one of his clinic dvds he talks about how to hold the Halter and why, also about head position and posture, then how to ask for back.

He doesn't specifically talk about why the horse should be in this position or the benefits but it's obviously something that he is aware of.

A bit different for the majority who won't have access to big numbers of horses to start or train etc.

The good ones just seem to know things without knowing how or why they know

 

[SEL]

I think it is, but it usually doesn't quantify how the neck should be, after all Celeste's work shows that different horses need different head carriages to achieve relaxation of the brach., so it teaches us to look for the right outcome, instead of focusing on method ("lower the head"). For instance a very low neck position switches the upper neck back on for most horses, there's a range in the middle where most horses fall.

That's one of my lightbulb moments. Microcob can have her head low (she's built that way) but maintaining a relaxed muscle is more of a challenge

 

[SEL]

I think the really good horsemen (& women) *know* without being aware or verbalising it.

I think that's why some courses / instruction are a struggle even if the person delivering the material is obviously talented. They can't all verbalise what they are doing in a way that very ordinary people like me can understand