Exercises for thoracic sling ?

[Polos Mum]

Following on from another saddle fit thread - any good suggestions to build thoracic sling in part way through breaking weak 5 y/o (deliberately left until he was older to let him strengthen up).

Saddle fitting is a total pain so limiting riding to once or twice a week until the chicken / egg situation on strength vs. saddle fitting is resolved.

He will ride and lead nicely and we have good hills.
I'm not a fan of lunging

Any other good suggestions?

 

[Orangehorse]

Have you got the Gillian Higgins book "How Your Horse Moves."?
A physio could recommend some exercises, which is probably going to be carrot stretches.

 

[AntiPuck]

The Horses Inside Out page (which I think is also Gillian Higgins'?) has a great webinar on exercises for young horses. I also do in-hand pole work, tail pulls, and carrot stretches for mine, all of those were recommended by the physio and have made a big difference.

For the saddle situation, would you consider a Total Contact Saddle? I have a 5yo who changes shape so rapidly that I've given up on a traditional saddle for the foreseeable, maybe forever, and am using a TCS which she seems to really like, and which has solved some of my previous pain issues when riding that I had with a traditional saddle. You may need to experiment a bit with the padding (I need a rear riser half pad, for example, otherwise I can't sit correctly on it), and it takes a few rides for the rider to adjust to, but lots of people love it beyond that.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

There are some on you tube the main one I use is the foreleg stretch you pick up the foreleg put your hand around the top of it at the front you kind of push it back so it kind of gets straight above the knee.

Leg twirls hold up limb like you would to pick out the feet support the hoof and just circle I tend to start with 5 each way then increase gradually you can do the back legs as well.

Tail pulls are good for general posture pull straight back then progress to left and right, you only pull very slightly to each side, the horse will generally pull back my horse really seems to like it.

Carrot stretches with a tail pull are really good so as the horse stretches round you hold the tail so the horse pulls against it.

 

[AdorableAlice]

I've had success with strengthening core and dipped back muscles by using a hayball, the horse has to take steps backwards to use it and it has made a huge difference for my horse.

 

[SEL]

https://www.wildmagicllc.com/traveling-horse-witch

@sbloom recommended the above to me for my little cob who has a poor thoracic sling (babies and an old injury). The exercises are pretty simple and made me have a bit of a lightbulb moment in relation to the Straightness Training stuff I never really got to grips with a few years back. The bodyworker who runs this site explains the exercises in terms of which muscles are working. I found with ST they'd say 'head down' but never say WHY.

It's not for everyone. A friend signed up wanting an easy "do this and ta da...." kind of course, whereas it's more information sharing.

 

[Melody Grey]

Backing the horse up ten strides a couple of times a day.

rubbing under the tummy with your fingertips, observing the back lift and then relax....repeat ad lib.

in hand work over raised poles, particularly in walk.

 

[Reacher]

https://www.wildmagicllc.com/traveling-horse-witch

@sbloom recommended the above to me for my little cob who has a poor thoracic sling (babies and an old injury). The exercises are pretty simple and made me have a bit of a lightbulb moment in relation to the Straightness Training stuff I never really got to grips with a few years back. The bodyworker who runs this site explains the exercises in terms of which muscles are working. I found with ST they'd say 'head down' but never say WHY.

It's not for everyone. A friend signed up wanting an easy "do this and ta da...." kind of course, whereas it's more information sharing.

This course has been recommended a lot in here but I’ve been a bit wary of paying $150 not knowing what I’d be getting. Also the hippy name (wild magic )puts me off a bit ?

Some good suggestions above. I use walking over poles and a tight serpentine over a line of raised poles (both from a physio). Leading down a slope and halting, backing up a slope, and carrot stretches.

 

[SEL]

She is quite hippy like! Originally from Hawaii. All of the above exercises are great if your horse already has good posture, but you are at risk of perpetuating bad posture & bad muscle memory if you aren't careful
I have 3 horses here capable of backing up but with their heads in the air hollow backed (1 x injury, 1 x muscle disease & 1 youngster). The first two will happily walk over poles hollow too. in fact I religiously did polework with the muscle disease one until a physio watched her and pointed out her techniques to avoid using her body correctly.

This course has been recommended a lot in here but I’ve been a bit wary of paying $150 not knowing what I’d be getting. Also the hippy name (wild magic )puts me off a bit ?

Some good suggestions above. I use walking over poles and a tight serpentine over a line of raised poles (both from a physio). Leading down a slope and halting, backing up a slope, and carrot stretches.

 

[AntiPuck]

I have 3 horses here capable of backing up but with their heads in the air hollow backed (1 x injury, 1 x muscle disease & 1 youngster). The first two will happily walk over poles hollow too. in fact I religiously did polework with the muscle disease one until a physio watched her and pointed out her techniques to avoid using her body correctly.

I have this issue with mine, often having her on a really loose, long leadrope helps, as then she dips her head down to investigate the poles before stepping over, but it doesn't always. Have you found anything else that helps?

I sometimes do the backing up with a likit at her chest, so that she stretches down to get it whilst going backwards, that was suggested by Physio and also seems to work.

 

[sbloom]

This course has been recommended a lot in here but I’ve been a bit wary of paying $150 not knowing what I’d be getting. Also the hippy name (wild magic )puts me off a bit ?

Some good suggestions above. I use walking over poles and a tight serpentine over a line of raised poles (both from a physio). Leading down a slope and halting, backing up a slope, and carrot stretches.

She is quite hippy like! Originally from Hawaii. All of the above exercises are great if your horse already has good posture, but you are at risk of perpetuating bad posture & bad muscle memory if you aren't careful
I have 3 horses here capable of backing up but with their heads in the air hollow backed (1 x injury, 1 x muscle disease & 1 youngster). The first two will happily walk over poles hollow too. in fact I religiously did polework with the muscle disease one until a physio watched her and pointed out her techniques to avoid using her body correctly.

Yep, so much of the groundwork/polework type stuff will strengthen the asymmetry and not undo it.

Ignore Wild Magic, she's accumulated lots of names it seems, her method is called Balance Through Movement Method and everyone I've recommend to it is having massive lightbulb moments. Celeste is the real deal.

I wouldn't just have a go at the odd exercise, I would get hands on help or enrol on a programme with Celeste, Manolo Mendez etc. It is possible to do harm with this stuff and you need to know what results you're looking for, and what contraindications.

 

[Reacher]

Thanks @SEL and @sbloom .
I will probably enrol on her course.
I have been working to improve my horse’s posture, he was quite weak when I first got him, obviously I don’t want to inadvertently make it worse,
I think you mentioned about toe out being a symptom of collapsed thoracic sling, my horse always had the habit of standing on the inside of his feet and is slightly toed out so I will look into this. He is also welsh/Arab with a habit of sticking head in air even when loose in paddock .

(Touch wood however, although the physios and RIs etc who have known him during the time I have owned him have all been pleased with his progress and he has always been a sound little horse. Frantically touches more wood).

Sorry for going off topic OP

Yep, so much of the groundwork/polework type stuff will strengthen the asymmetry and not undo it.....

.... It is possible to do harm with this stuff and you need to know what results you're looking for, and what contraindications.

Just thinking about this, my horse has been seen by an acpat physio twice a year for over 5 years since I got him and a vet physio also twice a year roughly for the past couple of years. So if my horse did have something wrong and I was making it worse, surely someone would have noticed?

 

[milliepops]

This course has been recommended a lot in here but I’ve been a bit wary of paying $150 not knowing what I’d be getting. .

this.
i've looked at her website and FB a few times as it's been mentioned quite a bit. but there's not even an explanation that i have seen, of what your $150 gets you really? pretty much everyone else selling courses etc offers a bit of a free taster so you can see if it works for you but it's hard to commit to something without any real inkling :/ Am interested to hear from anyone who commits as as i'm down to one working horse atm i have a bit of time for groundwork on days i don't schedule ridden work. tho currently i think TRT is probably better for my funny horse, at least from the free content and demos I've seen. On the one hand it's only the cost of a couple of lessons for me, on the other hand... that could pay for TWO LESSONS

 

[Reacher]

this.
i've looked at her website and FB a few times as it's been mentioned quite a bit. but there's not even an explanation that i have seen, of what your $150 gets you really? pretty much everyone else selling courses etc offers a bit of a free taster so you can see if it works for you but it's hard to commit to something without any real inkling :/ Am interested to hear from anyone who commits as as i'm down to one working horse atm i have a bit of time for groundwork on days i don't schedule ridden work. tho currently i think TRT is probably better for my funny horse, at least from the free content and demos I've seen. On the one hand it's only the cost of a couple of lessons for me, on the other hand... that could pay for TWO LESSONS

Yes i couldn’t see any free taster videos etc to give a flavour and I wasn’t sure what her professional qualifications were (though I might well have missed this info).

 

[sbloom]

From what I gather none of this is deliberate obfuscation etc. Her customers etc had been nagging her forever to do a groundwork course, mostly to back up her bodywork for them, but to then extend to others. She does have a page https://www.facebook.com/wildmagicllc which tells a little more than her website I guess, and I like this interview (plus she's done a webinar or two on Equitopia which is cheap to join for a month and binge on their great content)

.

She expected maybe 100 customers or so to sign up, within 5 months she had 900 and was swamped. She doesn't need people to join up for her to make a living, she is scaling up the support, training more people to help, but she's not promoting it, hence it's all word of mouth and if you trust the person recommending the course to you.

I'm not a qualified saddle fitter, or any other type of equine professional, and I'm not saying you should not worry about qualifications, but in this instance I don't care. She is a bodyworker, and is, I presume, qualified in some sort of structural integrative approach like Rolfing. Groundwork and integrative bodywork doesn't really have much in the way of qualification. Don't think Manolo Mendez has any relevant qualifications to what he does either...these people are mostly out there, doing their own thang, pushing boundaries.

 

[tallyho!]

Great suggestions. Could I please add straightness training as an Avenue to explore? There is no “this is the way” as such but is based on classical principles, ideas which you can use for your own situation, there’s no rigidity just what works.

 

[tallyho!]

Such a shame you are not a fan of lunging… it’s a great way to build strength when used correctly… what about in hand work?

 

[milliepops]

I wasn't intending to imply there was anything iffy going on there and doubt Reacher was either, sorry if that's what came across. just pointing out the investment of £ and also lots of TIME is tricky to justify when you are not sure what you're getting. I am not particularly fussed about qualifications if someone is getting results but i like to get a feel for something before jumping in. a few photos here and there don't do it for me I am sure you are a good egg too sbloom... but you know, on the internet no one knows you're a dog
Hopefully if she gets someone to help with the presentation of the programme it'll be more inviting for us skeptics

 

[sbloom]

I didn't think you really meant that. She's taken some flack from people for overfocusing on the TS but the discussions I've had with people who've put more or more horses through the programme tells me it really is all it promises.

The "help" is for the people on the programme, not to tidy it up for marketing it I'm afraid. Have you watched her interviews and webinars? I like ST too, I recommend Jec Ballou, there are so many great programmes that will all help the horse be more biomechanically correct. Celeste's course breaks it down into such small, clear steps with very clear biomechanical explanations, keeps the pace very slow to ensure each building block is in place and demands less multitasking/handler ability than many other in hand techniques

 

[milliepops]

Yeah though i am generally not one for packaged programmes in general ,( sorry to the OP this is going off topic a bit). i remember when ST became a craze on here and elsewhere and honestly i struggled to see why it was different to good quality small c classical training/schooling tbh, dabbled with some of the material and that sort of reinforced my opinion. though i know others found it helpful to perhaps join some dots that their regular training or reading weren't helping with. so it's different strokes for different folks, but all the more important that some tasters are available in that case! though understand that may only important be to anyone wanting to make a living from it. i really like the Ritter approach to this, they give away enough in bitesized chunks for someone new to them to get a good feel for what they do.

I didn't think you really meant that. She's taken some flack from people for overfocusing on the TS but the discussions I've had with people who've put more or more horses through the programme tells me it really is all it promises.

that's good to know. though i'm not sure what is promised exactly and if it's hours long videos or little bits you can dip into when you have some free time etc. it is clearly not her problem though. anyway as i'm sidetracking i will butt out now

 

[sbloom]

The first video is 3.5 hours long! It is in part because of lots of comments, I'm watching it in bits.

 

[tallyho!]

Yeah though i am generally not one for packaged programmes in general ,( sorry to the OP this is going off topic a bit). i remember when ST became a craze on here and elsewhere and honestly i struggled to see why it was different to good quality small c classical training/schooling tbh, dabbled with some of the material and that sort of reinforced my opinion. though i know others found it helpful to perhaps join some dots that their regular training or reading weren't helping with. so it's different strokes for different folks, but all the more important that some tasters are available in that case! though understand that may only important be to anyone wanting to make a living from it. i really like the Ritter approach to this, they give away enough in bitesized chunks for someone new to them to get a good feel for what they do.



that's good to know. though i'm not sure what is promised exactly and if it's hours long videos or little bits you can dip into when you have some free time etc. it is clearly not her problem though. anyway as i'm sidetracking i will butt out now

ST whether or not it was a craze was a good thing… it promoted classical as far as I could see. It wasn’t negative for horses. It might have been for true proponents of classical and I seem to remember I pooh-poohed it for that… but I have since seen it for what it is. A positive step to a more kind approach, a more correct approach and I like it for that.

 

[sbloom]

I have long recommended ST and agree, it's just that there's some very good marketing with it, and to do it properly is very expensive, plus there's so little help in this country. There may be plenty of good help online which I don't know about, but with two UK instructors having dropped out in the last couple of years, I believe we have two English ones left and one Scottish, which leaves people who've paid for Mastery with Marijke, without the support they thought they'd have.

 

[milliepops]

ST whether or not it was a craze was a good thing… it promoted classical as far as I could see. It wasn’t negative for horses. It might have been for true proponents of classical and I seem to remember I pooh-poohed it for that… but I have since seen it for what it is. A positive step to a more kind approach, a more correct approach and I like it for that.

I don't have any beef with ST at all, that wasn't my point at all ?.

Ok thanks for the info 3.5 hours would be a struggle personally but it clearly works for others ?

 

[tallyho!]

I have long recommended ST and agree, it's just that there's some very good marketing with it, and to do it properly is very expensive, plus there's so little help in this country. There may be plenty of good help online which I don't know about, but with two UK instructors having dropped out in the last couple of years, I believe we have two English ones left and one Scottish, which leaves people who've paid for Mastery with Marijke, without the support they thought they'd have.

This is the thing with “labels”… people only search for that phrase… it’s a downfall.

If someone searched for ST then that is a narrow search term… however a search on classical riding would open up a plethora of resources and would probably find someone nearby who could teach the principles of what ST is…

I think that is why CT do not like ST… because it makes it very niche, especially in the UK.

A useful thing to do here is to use a term that is universally recognised for those new to it and not narrow it down. Impossible on forums though.

 

[Polos Mum]

Thank you all for great replies - I've no idea how I missed them, clearly alerts not working !!

I'll reply to a few specifics shortly but in general these seem to be stretching based (horse Pilates if you will) which I'm happy to do but is there actual work he can do in parallel. As a young unbroken I'm not sure he'll get stronger without work. I had wondered about a driving harness and getting him to pull a tyre / pallet to build front end (he long reins well and is very biddable so practicalities of that would be OK)

Should I crack on riding in a ill fitting saddle (against my better judgement)
Riding a leading
Lunging (again I thought a no no for young unbalanced babies but stand to be corrected)
Long reining - any benefit to this over riding and leading (other than my personal fitness) - he won't have a bit so working into the bridle a challenge in a headcollar on a horse that has no idea what I'm asking and I can't use my seat !
something else I've not thought of ??

 

[Polos Mum]

Have you got the Gillian Higgins book "How Your Horse Moves."?
A physio could recommend some exercises, which is probably going to be carrot stretches.

I will get my physio to have a look, although I was hoping to do a little before then. At the moment she won't know where to start as he'd so weak everywhere ! I assumed (maybe wrongly) that physio would help refine - rather than start from scratch.

I'll def look at the book

 

[Polos Mum]

For the saddle situation, would you consider a Total Contact Saddle? I have a 5yo who changes shape so rapidly that I've given up on a traditional saddle for the foreseeable, maybe forever, and am using a TCS which she seems to really like, and which has solved some of my previous pain issues when riding that I had with a traditional saddle. You may need to experiment a bit with the padding (I need a rear riser half pad, for example, otherwise I can't sit correctly on it), and it takes a few rides for the rider to adjust to, but lots of people love it beyond that.

I have thought about alternative saddles - but he's young / v recently broken, spends lots of time in the field playing on 2 legs (not had that ridden yet but only a matter of time) currently totally round / barrel shaped so I'm nervous of security in a non tree saddle.
I've also read that they are as hard to fit as treed ones - to get the padding right is essential. Maybe that's not right !

 

[Polos Mum]

I've had success with strengthening core and dipped back muscles by using a hayball, the horse has to take steps backwards to use it and it has made a huge difference for my horse.

I have one of these for a fatty, he'll be sharing it now. Presume you mean a hayplay type thing.

 

[Polos Mum]

Such a shame you are not a fan of lunging… it’s a great way to build strength when used correctly… what about in hand work?

rather than not a fan I just thought it wasn't helpful for young wobbly babies. Happy to stand correctly.
He will lunge and long rein nicely, I tend to go for long reining as I can go up and down hills and get him used to traffic and avoid joint wear and boredom by not going round in circles.

He also won't have a bit (mouth too small according to dentist) so we're in headcollar, so I can use two reins to lunge but not as one the bridle as you might hope