Experiences of part livery (whatever happened to assisted)

[teapot]

At our yard it takes 10 minutes to bring in 2 horses and so if they çharged £10 to catch in one that would be at a rate of £120 for an hours work which is a lot of money surely you can't be suggesting that sort of hour rate for a groom to catch in?

Part livery at the yard I am on is nearly £800 a month I cannot see how they are making a loss at that rate.

This is where people don't understand what it actually costs to employee someone on £10 an hour. It costs the employer far more than that in contributions, employers liability insurance etc. That £120 wouldn't cover a groom's actual costs for one ten hour day.

and b) it may seem like it takes ten minutes to get two horses in, except it isn't. The reality is that member of staff has to stop what they were doing, walk to a field(s), catch two, bring in, check ok, and back onto whatever job that needed doing. On a busy yard, that can delay things getting done. Holding a horse for a farrier may only be x amount of time, but on a bad day could be y amount. Someone pays a token fiver and the yard work/schooling/another livery's service is impacted on.

Yard management is a very tricky line financially, and yards that offer stupidly cheap add on services for their liveries need their business plan looking at. Oh wait, half of them don't have one.

 

[ycbm]

Your YM will be very lucky if they're breaking even, let alone into profit, especially at the moment! Most people who offer livery aren't in it for the money, instead the love of the job, horses, people.

There's no reason whatsoever why the yard manager of my barn would continue to run the business unless she's making a profit from it. I ran the sums in my head yesterday and I am sure I could make a profit from it. The livery isn't cheap but the yard is full, I waited 2 months for a place to come free out of 200.

Many big yards around here are run by farmers. Definitely for profit and not for love of the horses.
.

 

[Smoky 2022]

I include all livery types because of staffing costs, insurance, rates, rent, cost of maintenance, feed/forage if suppplied, bedding if supplied, muck removal, general supplies etc etc.

That’s bs most part livery yards don’t have insurance I had yard owners tell me this. Most yard are owned and muck removal is free farmers don’t charge to take it away. They pay staff very little they are making a profit.

 

[SO1]

I am sorry that does not make sense.

It does take 10 mins for 2 horses because sometimes I help with catch in when at the yard at catch in time. It is about being organised and planning the day so you don't arrange to do other jobs at the same time as catch in especially if you know it is the same time every day.

Catch in normally at the same time each day. Other jobs are planned around catch in time. £120 for an hours work is a lot. You don't need to pay a groom for 10 hours just to do a one hour job. We have some lovely grooms that come for part of the day as well as the full time one.

Certainly at all the yards I have been on the YO's have owned strings of horses and a house. If your business can support 6 horses or more and allow you to have property then it is not an unprofitable business. These were all people with single incomes as well so not relying on a partner for financial help. One of the YO's has hunters and the other dressage horses so not just cheap cobs living out.

The reason these people don't have much money is because they have a lot of horses and keeping a horse is expensive not because the business is unprofitable. Not many jobs would fund 4 or more horses on a single income and allow enough time to look after them so if you want to have multiple horses and not be on part livery then there are very few jobs that would accommodate this either financially or timewise.

I am not saying being a YO is easy money YO works very hard but if you want multiple horses and don't have the skill set to work in finace, law, private medicine or some other high income role then being a YO is probably one of the only ways to fund it. I doubt my current YO could find another job that would fund 6 horses on a single income and allow enough time to look after them on a DIY basis.

I understand that I have been on commercial yards in the SE and not hobby livery yards.

My part livery takes up a significant amount of my salary and I have seen places advertised that are cheaper that look amazing but our yard is nice and quiet and I like the staff. In the evening just me which was good when there was a lot of Covid and I always have the school to myself when I come after work and don't get to the yard till 7.30.

This is where people don't understand what it actually costs to employee someone on £10 an hour. It costs the employer far more than that in contributions, employers liability insurance etc. That £120 wouldn't cover a groom's actual costs for one ten hour day.

and b) it may seem like it takes ten minutes to get two horses in, except it isn't. The reality is that member of staff has to stop what they were doing, walk to a field(s), catch two, bring in, check ok, and back onto whatever job that needed doing. On a busy yard, that can delay things getting done. Holding a horse for a farrier may only be x amount of time, but on a bad day could be y amount. Someone pays a token fiver and the yard work/schooling/another livery's service is impacted on.

Yard management is a very tricky line financially, and yards that offer stupidly cheap add on services for their liveries need their business plan looking at. Oh wait, half of them don't have one.

 

[teapot]

I am sorry that does not make sense.

It does take 10 mins for 2 horses because sometimes I help with catch in when at the yard at catch in time. It is about being organised and planning the day so you don't arrange to do other jobs at the same time as catch in especially if you know it is the same time every day.

Catch in normally at the same time each day. Other jobs are planned around catch in time. £120 for an hours work is a lot. You don't need to pay a groom for 10 hours just to do a one hour job. We have some lovely grooms that come for part of the day as well as the full time one.

Certainly at all the yards I have been on the YO's have owned strings of horses and a house. If your business can support 6 horses or more and allow you to have property then it is not an unprofitable business. These were all people with single incomes as well so not relying on a partner for financial help. One of the YO's has hunters and the other dressage horses so not just cheap cobs living out.

The reason these people don't have much money is because they have a lot of horses and keeping a horse is expensive not because the business is unprofitable. Not many jobs would fund 4 or more horses on a single income and allow enough time to look after them so if you want to have multiple horses and not be on part livery then there are very few jobs that would accommodate this either financially or timewise.

I am not saying being a YO is easy money YO works very hard but if you want multiple horses and don't have the skill set to work in finace, law, private medicine or some other high income role then being a YO is probably one of the only ways to fund it. I doubt my current YO could find another job that would fund 6 horses on a single income and allow enough time to look after them on a DIY basis.

I understand that I have been on commercial yards in the SE and not hobby livery yards.

My part livery takes up a significant amount of my salary and I have seen places advertised that are cheaper that look amazing but our yard is nice and quiet and I like the staff. In the evening just me which was good when there was a lot of Covid and I always have the school to myself when I come after work and don't get to the yard till 7.30.

We’ll agree to disagree given I spent years looking at yard finances, ins and outs etc. There is very little money to be made on yards that provide everything to a repeatedly high standard.

I am aware that people cut corners over the expensive stuff - insurance, business rates, running as multi businesses to reduce tax.

Also just because someone has a house, land and horses, it doesn’t necessarily mean anything. Instead could be asset rich, cash poor, massive mortgage, loans, permanently in the red… Unless you’ve actually seen their accounts you would never know!

 

[SussexbytheXmasTree]

I don’t really see how you can blame liveries for not making a profit. They do not set the livery charges nor are they responsible for setting the yards expectations the yard owner or manager is. If everyone charged more we’d have to pay more or give up. A lot of YM/YO do not have any management experience or natural skills and it comes as a shock when they run a business and they actually have to manage people. I also see so much wastage of time and money by badly thought out processes and pet projects. I’m not saying you’ll make a fortune and maybe not even a full living depending on your particular circumstances. However I think you can make a profit.

To say that liveries don’t understand business costs is also a broad statement. Plenty of us have jobs where we have to budget for full costs of people including their NI, pension, equipment etc. and do of recruitment etc. as well as building business cases and doing project forecasting.

In terms of ad-hoc requests a couple of ways to handle this is to be absolutely strict about what you will and will not provide and don’t budge unless it’s a true emergency or exceptional circumstances. Secondly have a different pricing structure for regular planned assistance and charge a lot more for ad-hoc requests and even more for those taken late on the day. Either people will be more organised or they’ll get off their bums and do it themselves.

 

[cheekywelshie]

I’m probably giving up horses after my boy (he’s 21 now). Impossible to find all year turnout a decent school and assisted livery anymore. Either complete DIY or expensive full.

 

[teapot]

I don’t really see how you can blame liveries for not making a profit. They do not set the livery charges nor are they responsible for setting the yards expectations the yard owner or manager is. If everyone charged more we’d have to pay more or give up. A lot of YM/YO do not have any management experience or natural skills and it comes as a shock when they run a business and they actually have to manage people. I also see so much wastage of time and money by badly thought out processes and pet projects. I’m not saying you’ll make a fortune and maybe not even a full living depending on your particular circumstances. However I think you can make a profit.

To say that liveries don’t understand business costs is also a broad statement. Plenty of us have jobs where we have to budget for full costs of people including their NI, pension, equipment etc. and do of recruitment etc. as well as building business cases and doing project forecasting.

In terms of ad-hoc requests a couple of ways to handle this is to be absolutely strict about what you will and will not provide and don’t budge unless it’s a true emergency or exceptional circumstances. Secondly have a different pricing structure for regular planned assistance and charge a lot more for ad-hoc requests and even more for those taken late on the day. Either people will be more organised or they’ll get off their bums and do it themselves.

Not blaming liveries at all - how you got that from my posts is beyond me. Business management however - it needs an absolute overhaul across the industry.

Lots of jobs do include that, but my point is many seem surprised at what outgoings include on a daily/weekly/monthly basis, because it never occurs to people what it actually costs to run a yard well, or what is involved. Which is what annoys me when people start moaning about livery going up by £20 a month. Then moan if the facilities/grazing etc aren’t tended to the moment there’s a problem.

Yard owners of any kind are not helping themselves or the reality of horse ownership by keeping things cheap as chips.

 

[SussexbytheXmasTree]

Not blaming liveries at all - how you got that from my posts is beyond me. Business management however - it needs an absolute overhaul across the industry.

Lots of jobs do include that, but my point is many seem surprised at what outgoings actually include on a daily/weekly/monthly basis, because it never occurs to people what it actually costs to run a yard well, or what is involved. Which is what annoys me when people start moaning about livery going up by £20 a month.

Yard owners of any kind are not helping themselves or the reality of horse ownership by keeping things cheap as chips.

I didn’t quote you so wasn’t responding to your post in particular just various comments in the thread including but not exclusively yours.

 

[SO1]

I am an economist by training. As I am sure you know business loans and mortgages are based on potential income. Bank managers need to see a business plan before they will loan money.

Horses are expensive to keep especially competition horses any business that can fund a string of horses and an equestrian property with a mortgage on a single income in my opinion cannot be doing that badly as it is funding a luxury hobby. It is not easy money there is no doubt about that but in my experience it enables people to keep more horses and spend time with them than a lot of other jobs.

My part livery went up by nearly £100 a month in April. I doubt very much YO is subsidising my horse.

Being a YO won't make you wealthy but it will in many cases enable you to live in equestrian property and have more than one horse and have control over the way they are kept. It is hard work often thankless but so is being a cleaner or carer which are low paid roles but would not fund equestrian lifestyle with multiple equines.

Assisted DIY is difficult because of the planning around staff.

We’ll agree to disagree given I spent years looking at yard finances, ins and outs etc. There is very little money to be made on yards that provide everything to a repeatedly high standard.

I am aware that people cut corners over the expensive stuff - insurance, business rates, running as multi businesses to reduce tax.

Also just because someone has a house, land and horses, it doesn’t necessarily mean anything. Instead could be asset rich, cash poor, massive mortgage, loans, permanently in the red… Unless you’ve actually seen their accounts you would never know!

 

[cheekywelshie]

i'd be happy with somewhere in between assisted/part - where you pay for bring in and turnout every day but you can choose your bedding and whether you want hay/haylage - but this doesn't exist near us.