Exploitation of girl groom?

[Fieldlife]

Sorry not sure why I thought we were still in March!

It is worse in that I checked numbers on google and had to look harder for the before April figures!

 

[sunnyone]

In my late 30s I was a National Insurance inspector, ruling whether somebody was employed or self-employed was part of my job.
If it wasn't clear, and this case isn't as the groom does dog walking too, I had a library of 24 questions to use to help me come to a fair decision. It might even be that I'd rule the grooming job was employment and the dog walking self- employment. Nobody outside the parties involved should try and sway this relationship if they value their friendship. If the groom is not happy she should discuss the situation with HMRC, the people who not only know but will give advice for free.
Liability for NI is purely down to income (less expenses if self-employed).

 

[Gloi]

Doesn’t NMW also apply to self employed people?

No, you can charge what you like for your services.

Also though unlikely here , when I was working regular hours for a company but not employed by them I set up as a limited company and billed them that way, as did other people who did contracting for them.

 

[blitznbobs]

Doesn’t NMW also apply to self employed people?

I haven’t drawn a salary from my business in 4 years

 

[Burnerbee]

If she was prepared to go I’d suggest she pop into the local Citizens Advice who will explain her employment rights - and the importance of NI (she can, and should for her own sake, pay voluntary Class 2). But in reality it sounds like she’s being taken advantage of.

 

[MagicMelon]

As far as Im aware (am in process of suing a major national company for this type of thing) if they dictate when/where and what times she works then they legally should employ her.

 

[teapot]

As far as Im aware (am in process of suing a major national company for this type of thing) if they dictate when/where and what times she works then they legally should employ her.

Indeed. I know of somewhere that dictates the hours of supposedly freelance coaches. I wonder if HMRC will catch up with them…

The IR35 rules are quite specific with regards what counts as self employed!

 

[Goldenstar]

As far as Im aware (am in process of suing a major national company for this type of thing) if they dictate when/where and what times she works then they legally should employ her.

Yes my free lancers set the times they work and when they work if they don’t want the hours I want I get someone else or do it myself .

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

This sounds very dicey on all sorts of levels: firstly there's the issue of the employer paying Cash (below minimum wage?); secondly there's the issue of her actually receiving Cash-in-hand. It all sounds as fishy as a dead mackerel the more you think about it tbh. No she is NOT a "Freelance". Frankly she is being used as nothing more than a skivvy for what is probably a very seedy little stables somewhere and she is a very silly girl to be doing this as she is being taken advantage of big-time.

Anyone who is receiving ANY sort of payment for doing any work should be filing a proper tax return to HMRC and paying NI. As someone else has said it will affect her very adversely come Pension time, but sooner than that all of this is likely to come and bite her on the bum anytime. Mainly if she is accepting ANY "earnings" without declaring them once the HMRC find out about it (and they probably will do) will come on her like a ton of hot bricks and she'll be in the soft-and-smelly bigtime because once they've got their claws into someone they will literally put them on the hotplate & thoroughly grill them about everything they've ever done; but there are other things as well which could go badly wrong for e.g. unlike a Professional Groom she very likely has no proper insurance in place either - which if something happens on the yard she'd be in a very unenviable position indeed as without any records of payments her "employer" could deny flatly that he/she is employing her and she'd be on her own, possibly injured and possibly unable to work.

OP, are you in a position to perhaps have a chat with this young girl? Frankly, and I know it sounds awful, but if someone DID report her to HMRC they'd actually be doing her a favour. She needs to get herself out of this situation. FAST. However she may need some support and advice: if you can you might direct her to somewhere like Citizens Advice who would be able to provide help and advice in a non-judgemental way.

 

[Goldenstar]

How do we know she does not fill in a tax return and pay her NI .

 

[ycbm]

It isn't illegal or immoral per se to pay in cash or be paid in cash.
.

 

[SilverLinings]

Frankly she is being used as nothing more than a skivvy for what is probably a very seedy little stables somewhere and she is a very silly girl to be doing this as she is being taken advantage of big-time.

I just copied this bit of your post to say that unfortunately in my experience (both when I was young myself, and nowadays when talking to 18-25yr olds in PC) situations like this are just as likely to occur in very expensive, immaculate private yards as ones that are run on a shoestring and look like a dump. Some* rich people have become rich by cutting corners and being d@mn sure not to share any of their money around, and they don't change once they have the big house, stables and a groom. IMO they are worse than the seedy stables as they don't even have the excuse of doing it out of financial need, and often also can't claim they don't know how tax/employment laws work, as they made their money through business.

One of the worst cases of abuse of staff I saw (many years ago) was at the immaculate luxury yard of a previous olympic rider. The grooms were treated like slaves (they were unpaid, just provided with board and lodging in slum quarters) and verbally abused. The rider's status meant that there were always other willing victims to replace the grooms who left. The rider came from a wealthy background and was running a successful business, they could definitely afford to pay their staff properly.

Obviously the yard in question may be a shoestring outfit, but not necessarily. As you say, MJATBT, the groom is being taken advantage of either way, if they are employed and being paid less than the minimum wage.

*Just to be clear, there are also nice, legal employers in both wealthy yards and poorer ones.

 

[sport horse]

I employ staff - they are paid PAYE and are on a Pension Scheme and have paid holidays. They are covered by my Employers Liability insurance. I also employ Freelance Staff - they invoice me monthly for the hours they work. They do not get paidholidays/pension etc. That is down to them to fill out their own Tax forms. They are also supposed to purchase their own insurance - I have seen the certificates but it is impossible to be certain that they renew each month. To cover myself they are also included on my Employers Liability Insurance. As I understand it, failure on my part to get invoices with their full details, could leave me vulnerable to having to pay the full sum of any back tax & NI on their wages from me.

Amazingly, as in recent years most staff have arrived with P45 from previous employment, the last 4 staff I have interviewed have all been paid 'cash in hand' and have not been filling out their own tax returns either. Even more surprising was that three of thse staff came from top class livery yards that were presumably sending their clients livery billls, possibly with VAT so surely they would need to offset staff costs for their books?

 

[AmyMay]

It isn't illegal or immoral per se to pay in cash or be paid in cash.
.

I’m often paid in cash. (And yes it’s income I declare on my tax return).

 

[Goldenstar]

Cash can represent the safest way of being paid as a freelancer .

 

[stormox]

I know a girl, well she is in her 20s and I don't know her well, but she works for a friend sometimes to dog walk. Her main job is at a yard where she is expected to be there from 7.30 am to 10.00 and then in the afternoon from 3.30 to 6.30. I am not 100% about the hours but basically she has to be there in the morning and then again in the evenings. She has some dog walking jobs during the day sometimes but her first call is always

She loves the horses and is great with them, and has got fond of them so doesn't want to leave, but I worry for

Why are you worrying? Surely what she does is up to her, she is in her 20's.
I was probably exploited as a teenage working pupil. Would I have wanted someone sticking their nose in? Certainly not!

 

[Jambarissa]

HMRC will have no interest in this case, the girl might earn a few thousand over the threshold that she should be paying tax on, so £400 of yield for an inspector. Not worth the admin and she could possibly offset that in travel expenses or clothing required to do the job.

She'd also have no luck in speaking to them to decide whether she is employed or self employed - that is not the sort of question someone on minimum wage in a call centre is trained to answer. She'd be told to use the info online to decide and consult an accountant if she needs one.

This woman is undoubtedly underpaid whether employed or a freelancer but she's the only one who can do something about it and it doesn't sound like she's asking anyone for help to do that. Presumably she could ask for a raise or go elsewhere or even threaten her employer with a lawyer and get a ton of back pay plus a contract or payoff but she isn't.

She'll come to her senses eventually and unfortunately be replaced by another horse loving person, I don't think anything can be done she is an adult and has autonomy.

 

[paddy555]

This sounds very dicey on all sorts of levels: firstly there's the issue of the employer paying Cash (below minimum wage?); secondly there's the issue of her actually receiving Cash-in-hand. It all sounds as fishy as a dead mackerel the more you think about it tbh. No she is NOT a "Freelance". Frankly she is being used as nothing more than a skivvy for what is probably a very seedy little stables somewhere and she is a very silly girl to be doing this as she is being taken advantage of big-time.

Anyone who is receiving ANY sort of payment for doing any work should be filing a proper tax return to HMRC and paying NI. As someone else has said it will affect her very adversely come Pension time, but sooner than that all of this is likely to come and bite her on the bum anytime. Mainly if she is accepting ANY "earnings" without declaring them once the HMRC find out about it (and they probably will do) will come on her like a ton of hot bricks and she'll be in the soft-and-smelly bigtime because once they've got their claws into someone they will literally put them on the hotplate & thoroughly grill them about everything they've ever done; but there are other things as well which could go badly wrong for e.g. unlike a Professional Groom she very likely has no proper insurance in place either - which if something happens on the yard she'd be in a very unenviable position indeed as without any records of payments her "employer" could deny flatly that he/she is employing her and she'd be on her own, possibly injured and possibly unable to work.

OP, are you in a position to perhaps have a chat with this young girl? Frankly, and I know it sounds awful, but if someone DID report her to HMRC they'd actually be doing her a favour. She needs to get herself out of this situation. FAST. However she may need some support and advice: if you can you might direct her to somewhere like Citizens Advice who would be able to provide help and advice in a non-judgemental way.

I don't understand why she shouldn't receive cash in hand. There is no issue with the employer paying her cash either.

I' m not sure how you can say, based on the info. given that she is not freelance (self employed) You simply don't know the facts. Without those facts you cannot come to any conclusion.You need to know from the yard owners POV how this is being dealt with and on what basis and the same from the girl's side. Only once you have all of that info will you be able to reach a decision. Then you will be making a decision based on facts rather than your own interpretation of what you think the situation is iro of this very silly girl and the yard owner with his seedy little stables.

 

[Orangehorse]

OH just wondering what you’re getting at! Are you trying to help someone or raising a point about employment law? You say you know someone, but not that well, you have a little knowledge about their work but not a lot and it’s very unclear what you seek to gain.

I just thought that the situation sounded bad for her future. I see these jobs advertised locally just wanting staff in the mornings and then in the afternoons, so unless you are charging enough as a freelance and have a reliable second job to go to in between it seems a completely dead end situation.

Is this Worcestershire by any chance?? Although I know it's all too common unfortunately.
I was that girl when I was 18-22. Similar hours, cash in hand, did it for the love of horses and didn't know any better. Thankfully someone advised and I found a better employer.

No, not Worcestershire. And even if it was I couldn't say.

 

[Orangehorse]

Yes, well there have been some interesting points raised, which has clarified the situation.

There is nothing wrong in being paid cash, so long as it is declared by the person receiving it on a tax return, therefore they need to keep records of their income.

 

[paddy555]

I just thought that the situation sounded bad for her future. I see these jobs advertised locally just wanting staff in the mornings and then in the afternoons, so unless you are charging enough as a freelance and have a reliable second job to go to in between it seems a completely dead end situation.

is she unhappy? has she asked for help ? I just don't get it otherwise. If she is unhappy she can move on.

Yes, well there have been some interesting points raised, which has clarified the situation.

There is nothing wrong in being paid cash, so long as it is declared by the person receiving it on a tax return, therefore they need to keep records of their income.

how do you know she isn't keeping a record? Is the dog walking business treating her as an employee? how are they treating her?