Tiffany
Well-Known Member
Poor lad only thing I can think is that he doesn't feel pain on his head although not sure if that's possible.
Eye socket fracture update
- Thread starter cptrayes
- Start date
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
He has always done it. Though I have realised in telling to a friend tonight that since his kissing spines operation he has done it more times (6 in 4 months) and with more severe results, than ever before. Is that coincidence, or linked????????
be positive
Well-Known Member
He is untrimmed. He was bred without them
It may be as simple as without them he just lacks that sense when in a tight spot, I thought you would not trim them but it is unusual to see none, I wonder if putting a mask on all the time would make him more aware of where his head is, the fact he is worse since the op may be that he is generally more relaxed so less careful than he was before.
Horses in constant pain seem to have heightened senses and will be on edge all the time so a small bang to the head has now become major as he can move more freely, being able to move more easily through his spine would also mean swinging round to flick off a fly is pain free, or should be if he didn't bash his ****** head!!!!
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
OwnedbyJoe
Well-Known Member
I'd think of:
Getting his ears checked, as mentioned by someone else.
A headshakers workup - does he ever flick his head while being ridden?
Is he epileptic...???? Seizures in horses do happen.
Getting his ears checked, as mentioned by someone else.
A headshakers workup - does he ever flick his head while being ridden?
Is he epileptic...???? Seizures in horses do happen.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Thanks for that. But on the thread in Tack Room, we have discovered that he has a problem with depth of vision and really does not know how far away objects are. He's in a padded hearcollar and I am looking into buying him a Police horse riot shield. This season's must have look
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Vet visit today.
oh dear. Nothing can be found that is obviously wrong. No tests are available that are likely to identify any cause of his head bashing. CAT scan and brain WEB and optic nerve tests are all available, but very expensive and very unlikely to actually tell us anything. And even if they do, it is very unlikely that there would be any treatment.
And ...... this very experienced vet thinks he has previously broken or at least severely damaged the other eye socket, which would be before I got him because he's had scrapes, but no serious injuries to that eye while I've had him. (He does, though, currently have a cracked or broken cheek bone on that side.) So this has been going on all his life
Vet has never seen a horse like him.
Regarding riding him, and how he suddenly explodes into spin bucking, this vet is of the opinion that the horse is now 'programmed' to react to pain and the expectation of pain, and that it will take an exceptionally brave and able rider to train him out of this, and it may not be possible. Wagtail has one where it was not possible, and the horse is retired, I think, even though veterinary opinion is that it is 'all in his head'.
So the plan now is to continue to rest him until June, hen the new fracture will be healed, and then put a pro rider on him, because whilst I may be happy jumping six foot hedges and sitting normal bucks, I don't want to sit this horse's rodeo performance again at my age, even if I can. I also want to rule out any possibility that I will set him off by expecting him to do it.
So it's just a waiting game for now
oh dear. Nothing can be found that is obviously wrong. No tests are available that are likely to identify any cause of his head bashing. CAT scan and brain WEB and optic nerve tests are all available, but very expensive and very unlikely to actually tell us anything. And even if they do, it is very unlikely that there would be any treatment.
And ...... this very experienced vet thinks he has previously broken or at least severely damaged the other eye socket, which would be before I got him because he's had scrapes, but no serious injuries to that eye while I've had him. (He does, though, currently have a cracked or broken cheek bone on that side.) So this has been going on all his life
Vet has never seen a horse like him.
Regarding riding him, and how he suddenly explodes into spin bucking, this vet is of the opinion that the horse is now 'programmed' to react to pain and the expectation of pain, and that it will take an exceptionally brave and able rider to train him out of this, and it may not be possible. Wagtail has one where it was not possible, and the horse is retired, I think, even though veterinary opinion is that it is 'all in his head'.
So the plan now is to continue to rest him until June, hen the new fracture will be healed, and then put a pro rider on him, because whilst I may be happy jumping six foot hedges and sitting normal bucks, I don't want to sit this horse's rodeo performance again at my age, even if I can. I also want to rule out any possibility that I will set him off by expecting him to do it.
So it's just a waiting game for now
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cptrayes
Well-Known Member
EEG not WEB !!
YorksG
Over the hill and far awa
If he has never had the sensory whiskers under his eye and your vet believes that he has old injuries, is it possible that there is some degree of acquired brain injury, which may explain some of the dangerous ridden behaviour? People with acquired brain injury often have poor impulse control, with emotional outbursts and can have psychotic episodes. I know this doesn't suggest any treatment (except time) but may be an explanation.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
That's the best theory we can come up with YG, and as you can tell its causing me a sleepless night !
He's like the girl with the curl. When he's good he's an angel. When he's bad he'd do justice to a rodeo show, no bucking strap needed!
The shame is that there not an ounce of malice in the horse, he is either in pain or afraid of pain, and off he goes. He warns me first by stamping a foot, flashing his tail or refusing to turn. And if you force the issue, off he goes. I can usually stay on till he stops, but it's no fun, and the last time he spun so hard the saddle slipped with me pulling on my safety handle, and I didn't have a hope. I used to buy horses like this to sort them out, but I'm too old for this now
We'll just have to see how he reacts to a pro in June, and then see where we go from there.
At the moment, he is wrinkling his brows and looks like a horse with a constant headache. His numb nose has recovered its feeling, but this second injury has knocked him for six
He's like the girl with the curl. When he's good he's an angel. When he's bad he'd do justice to a rodeo show, no bucking strap needed!
The shame is that there not an ounce of malice in the horse, he is either in pain or afraid of pain, and off he goes. He warns me first by stamping a foot, flashing his tail or refusing to turn. And if you force the issue, off he goes. I can usually stay on till he stops, but it's no fun, and the last time he spun so hard the saddle slipped with me pulling on my safety handle, and I didn't have a hope. I used to buy horses like this to sort them out, but I'm too old for this now
We'll just have to see how he reacts to a pro in June, and then see where we go from there.
At the moment, he is wrinkling his brows and looks like a horse with a constant headache. His numb nose has recovered its feeling, but this second injury has knocked him for six
Prince33Sp4rkle
Well-Known Member
very sorry to hear of this latest update
you and i have not always seen eye to eye but you know i have always admired the horse, so i just wanted to say:
if you feel you are at the end of your tether, have reached your capacity to deal with this horse, or simply no longer know what to do, he would be welcome at my last chance saloon.
i would have to buy him (for an incredibly small sum just to make it legally official), no loans etc but then if he did not improve to a workable level, i would have him PTS (and obviously that would be my cost and risk to bear).
so theres another option available if you wish....................obviously we all hope he will recover and go back to being your dressage horse but if he doesnt, and you think some steel balls might be needed/might work, drop me a message
you and i have not always seen eye to eye but you know i have always admired the horse, so i just wanted to say:
if you feel you are at the end of your tether, have reached your capacity to deal with this horse, or simply no longer know what to do, he would be welcome at my last chance saloon.
i would have to buy him (for an incredibly small sum just to make it legally official), no loans etc but then if he did not improve to a workable level, i would have him PTS (and obviously that would be my cost and risk to bear).
so theres another option available if you wish....................obviously we all hope he will recover and go back to being your dressage horse but if he doesnt, and you think some steel balls might be needed/might work, drop me a message
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
very sorry to hear of this latest update
you and i have not always seen eye to eye but you know i have always admired the horse, so i just wanted to say:
if you feel you are at the end of your tether, have reached your capacity to deal with this horse, or simply no longer know what to do, he would be welcome at my last chance saloon.
i would have to buy him (for an incredibly small sum just to make it legally official), no loans etc but then if he did not improve to a workable level, i would have him PTS (and obviously that would be my cost and risk to bear).
so theres another option available if you wish....................obviously we all hope he will recover and go back to being your dressage horse but if he doesnt, and you think some steel balls might be needed/might work, drop me a message
Princess, thank you very much for your offer, but I think you have enough to deal with right now with your own unhappy horse.
Prince33Sp4rkle
Well-Known Member
i made the offer because ive got the time, space etc.
im not saying you MUST give me the option, just making it clear that the option is available
As for CS, unless you know more than my vet, physio, dentist, 3 x GP trainers etc its impossible to say if he's unhappy due to pain (still under investigation currently albeit tests for hind gut ulcers have come back negative again so thats one more thing to tick off ) or whether he's just a difficult customer and is unhappy at having to work! If its the latter (as most people seem to think) then he will either have to suck it up or be PTS because he wont hack/jump etc and thus has limited options for doing anything else.
Ace also has limited options if he doesnt improve hence my offer.
As i said before, drop me a message if you wish to discuss and having made the offer im now bowing out of this thread
im not saying you MUST give me the option, just making it clear that the option is available
As for CS, unless you know more than my vet, physio, dentist, 3 x GP trainers etc its impossible to say if he's unhappy due to pain (still under investigation currently albeit tests for hind gut ulcers have come back negative again so thats one more thing to tick off
) or whether he's just a difficult customer and is unhappy at having to work! If its the latter (as most people seem to think) then he will either have to suck it up or be PTS because he wont hack/jump etc and thus has limited options for doing anything else.Ace also has limited options if he doesnt improve hence my offer.
As i said before, drop me a message if you wish to discuss and having made the offer im now bowing out of this thread
Booboos
Well-Known Member
Oh no I am so sorry to hear this. It is very frustrating to suspect a horse has a problem and not to be able to get to the bottom of it. I hope the rest does him good and he comes back to work calmly.
Andalucian
Well-Known Member
Thinking of you and Ace, I'm always here if I can be of any help, even just to talk thing through. xx
ImmyS
Well-Known Member
That's the best theory we can come up with YG, and as you can tell its causing me a sleepless night !
He's like the girl with the curl. When he's good he's an angel. When he's bad he'd do justice to a rodeo show, no bucking strap needed!
The shame is that there not an ounce of malice in the horse, he is either in pain or afraid of pain, and off he goes. He warns me first by stamping a foot, flashing his tail or refusing to turn. And if you force the issue, off he goes. I can usually stay on till he stops, but it's no fun, and the last time he spun so hard the saddle slipped with me pulling on my safety handle, and I didn't have a hope. I used to buy horses like this to sort them out, but I'm too old for this now
We'll just have to see how he reacts to a pro in June, and then see where we go from there.
At the moment, he is wrinkling his brows and looks like a horse with a constant headache. His numb nose has recovered its feeling, but this second injury has knocked him for six
Hi Cptrayes, sorry to hear Ace has had another injury.
Just had a thought about possibly why he keeps hitting his head so regularly.
I was just browsing on horses4homes and came across a horse that had fractured it's neck out in the field. The horse recovered and seemed completely sound and normal 99% of the time but on the odd occasion would show a lack of co-ordination and spacial awareness. Thought that maybe Ace could have suffered from a similar injury in the past - affecting his judgement, resulting in him bumping into things?
I hope you get to the bottom of his issues and you get lovely Ace back in work and going good again!
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Well it certainly was a surprise when the vet said he has previously fractured the other one. He tested his neck and there is no loss of flexibility, but neck x rays are on my list of possible things to do if he does not come back into work. Your suggestion is appreciated, as are everyone else's kind thoughts. Thank you.
YorksG
Over the hill and far awa
One of the positives of Acquired Brain Injury is that they often continue to improve with time and with some of the subtle damage new pathways can be created (in people) It is possible that if you can stop him injurying himself again, that time may well see some improvement. With people they reckon that what you are left with after 5 years is what you have, not sure if that is feasable withyour horse.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
YG I think the problem now is that the really experienced vet says that he has fractured his left eye socket some time more that three and a half years ago. And now two more fractures in the space of two months. I'm not sure we'll ever be able to do anything but protect his head. The big problem now is that we have 'trained' him to associate this place, the only dressage venue we can be bothered to go to, and me as a rider, with pain. And now he's looking for it, and reacting to the tiniest suggestion of it, and if pushed to stop reacting to it, with a kick for example as I did last time, simply explodes. I'm gutted. We had beautiful work coming back after his kissing spines operation, now he's lost all his tone and a heck of a lot of back muscle, and I don't know if he will ever get back there :-(
YorksG
Over the hill and far awa
That is such a shame The length of time from the first insult does suggest that there is unlikely to be much more radical change now. It is so hard to know what to do in these situations, so I really feel for you.
The length of time from the first insult does suggest that there is unlikely to be much more radical change now. It is so hard to know what to do in these situations, so I really feel for you.Prince33Sp4rkle
Well-Known Member
Just on this diff note, was speaking to someone today ref CS no saying that last time we nerve blocked his back there was no change but it could be remembered pain. She is incredibly experienced, has broken and re-nabbed loads of horses and said that in her experience, actually remembered pain isn't really as prevalent in animals as we think. They don't have that ability, they live in the moment. As an eg she has a KS horse that bolted when mounted. As SOON as his backed was blocked out he stopped even tensing up.
In her opinion, remove the pain and the response will cease pretty quickly so if you can get ace right he won't continue to associate you with pain.
Am probably going to have CS blocked out again to be sure to be sure, as her horses problem didn't look severe on x rays but obv was causing a prob.
In her opinion, remove the pain and the response will cease pretty quickly so if you can get ace right he won't continue to associate you with pain.
Am probably going to have CS blocked out again to be sure to be sure, as her horses problem didn't look severe on x rays but obv was causing a prob.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
That is completely the reverse of what my exceptionally experienced vet believes. He explained to the three of us who were there that in some horses, mostly of the lighter types, the flight reflex is so strong that they will, given sufficient history, react with instant flight to the suggestion of pain as well as the actuality.
Wagtail has an ex-kissing-spines horse that she has spent masses on having investigated. No pain can be found, and the opinion of her vets is that it is ingrained in the horse's behaviour.
That said, Ace is certainly still in pain, though from his movement it's clear it's not from his back. But he looks like a horse with a headache, and his behaviour is randomly quite irrational. Today for no apparent reason he was desperately headshy, yesterday he was fine. Today he attacked my little cob, yesterday he was fine.
This randomness is the most worrying feature of the current situation, which I hope will change with the further six weeks that the vet says he needs to repair his head.
His riot shield has arrived and looks absolutely great.
Meanwhile, I'm not feeling too sorry for myself. I've just sold the hunter in my avatar, who I bought unbroken at six and managed to turn into a six foot hedge jumper, for what to me is a lot of money (though not to the multi millionaire who bought him - he's gone to live in a palace with his own personal 90 acre cross country course
) So I'm out looking for a new baby to replace him with tomorrow. Life could be worse
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Regandal
Well-Known Member
If you're running out of options, what about getting a reiki/shiatsu/energy type healer? Might not work, but you never know. Worth a try, you are obviously very fond of this horse. Hope something turns up for him.
Circe
Well-Known Member
This might be totally stupid, and I don't even know if this can happen with horses, but could he have a headache?
I'm thinking along the lines of, he has a mild traumatic brain injury, some oedema, and he has a raised intra cranial pressure?
I'm not sure if this can happen, or how you would even check?
I do hope he improves, you need a bit of luck with him.
Kx
I'm thinking along the lines of, he has a mild traumatic brain injury, some oedema, and he has a raised intra cranial pressure?
I'm not sure if this can happen, or how you would even check?
I do hope he improves, you need a bit of luck with him.
Kx
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
I don't think it's stupid at all. He looks like some days he has a migraine, frowning, blinking, unhappy. If we get them, why shouldn't he? He has got two mending skull fracture, after all.
Thanks for the suggestions everyone, I'm a great believer in time as a healer, and a very big sceptic about alternative therapies. We'll see how he goes on until June when we try and ride him if he is ready.
I've been thinking more about the idea that horses can't react to a situation that once caused them pain as if it will still cause them pain and I'm sure it's not right. There was a thread about it a while ago and loads of people reported it. And if it was true then they wouldn't remember good things either and wouldn't they be impossible to train?
Thanks for the suggestions everyone, I'm a great believer in time as a healer, and a very big sceptic about alternative therapies. We'll see how he goes on until June when we try and ride him if he is ready.
I've been thinking more about the idea that horses can't react to a situation that once caused them pain as if it will still cause them pain and I'm sure it's not right. There was a thread about it a while ago and loads of people reported it. And if it was true then they wouldn't remember good things either and wouldn't they be impossible to train?
Kelpie
Well-Known Member
Blimey, you are going through it with this one
One little thought about the remembered pain issue - I know you are not the buny hugger type but you could look at clicker to get round it. So replace the worry and bad memory with a good (food) association. Obviously you would need to be sure it is a memory issue only but could be worth a thought? It's something I have done before on a worried horse with great success (i don't bounce as well as I used to so nowadays am happier to take the long road on stuff like that).
One little thought about the remembered pain issue - I know you are not the buny hugger type but you could look at clicker to get round it. So replace the worry and bad memory with a good (food) association. Obviously you would need to be sure it is a memory issue only but could be worth a thought? It's something I have done before on a worried horse with great success (i don't bounce as well as I used to so nowadays am happier to take the long road on stuff like that).
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Clicker isn't hugging bunnies
If I ever get to ride him again, I'll try it when the tail starts flashing. He never does it without warning first.
If I ever get to ride him again, I'll try it when the tail starts flashing. He never does it without warning first.
dianchi
Well-Known Member
Sorry to see this, what Pro are you thinking of trying?
Whilst I generally think Animal Communicators are not pro's and given that the end of the line of things to try is coming, perhaps worth a shot? I would love someone to come and see my girl as nothing would be a surprise and be interesting to see what the responses are.
I think its very nice of PS to offer ace a place if all else fails, given the history between your postings I think that was a very grown up thing to have offered! (rarely see grown up behaviour on forums!)
Whilst I generally think Animal Communicators are not pro's and given that the end of the line of things to try is coming, perhaps worth a shot? I would love someone to come and see my girl as nothing would be a surprise and be interesting to see what the responses are.
I think its very nice of PS to offer ace a place if all else fails, given the history between your postings I think that was a very grown up thing to have offered! (rarely see grown up behaviour on forums!)
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
I have a choice of pros to back him for me. I doubt if you would know any of them, they are all in the north.
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