'Fainting'??!?!?

[Bounty]

Has anyone had any experience of a horse 'fainting'?
Rage collapsed today in a way that I can only describe as a 'faint'

There was no symptoms and no prior warning.
Have spoken to the vet over the phone who said she can't even begin to suggest what it could be as there is nothing to go on atm - he's having blood and enzyme test and possible muscle biopsies tomorrow, obviously along with a full check up.
Any experinces or advice?

 

[only_me]

could be that narcalpsy thing?

 

[claireross]

Years ago, when I was a kid I went to lean on one of the riding school ponies and it just fell over, just like passing out. Although it had been stood outside all day in the sun, it never did it again though

 

[kerilli]

some type of acute ryegrass staggers? my A mare had something similar to this once, didn't actually faint or fall over but very nearly, was wobbling all over the place. vet came out, gave her a huge injection of vitamins, and she was as right as rain within about 20 mins, never had it again. that's the only similar thing i have experience of. best of luck, hope you get it sorted out.

 

[Bounty]

Kerilli - you are the only other horsey person that I have ever heard talking about ryegrass staggers! People usually look at me like I'm barmy when I mention them

A mare I used to own suffered terribly from RGS, but it was always something that presented itself as complete lack of coordination, drowsiness and dizziness, and never came on and off instantenously (sp!).
He'd not grazed that morning and our hay is off an old-fashioned, established pasture which has very little ryegrass in it...

CCJ1 - no chance of sunstroke in the weather at the moment!

only_me - definitely something I'll mention to the vet.

Thanks all!

 

[kerilli]

hope you get to the bottom of it, i'd be very interested to hear the results. very worrying for you, poor mare.

 

[the watcher]

I don't think this is an allergic response or collapse, you would have seen a change in breathing and recovery would not have been so quick.

The below describes narcolepsy, which I think is more likely (I have only ever seen one horse with this condition) -

Excessive daytime drowsiness and cataplexy have been observed in horses. Because horses are unable to tell us whether they hallucinate, dream, or experience sleep paralysis, we don't know if the other two components play a part or not.

In narcoleptic horses, the sudden onset of REM sleep usually occurs during periods of inactivity--while the horse is in his stall, at pasture, or standing relaxed in a run-in shed. Typically, the horse will drop his head quite low and spread his front legs for balance while his hindquarters sag. The horse's eyes might be closed or half-open, and movement (REM) is visible. Most horses remain standing during attacks, but some, particularly ponies, sit on their haunches and might roll on their sides. Attacks can last from a few seconds to 10 minutes.

Cataplexy is a more problematic and potentially dangerous aspect of narcolepsy in horses because of the size of the animal. Simple actions such as stroking the head and neck, leading a horse out of his stall, hosing or bathing after exercise, or the intake of grain or water at feeding time can cause a narcoleptic horse to buckle suddenly at the knees, stumble, and possibly collapse. The best approach is to stand back and let the episode run its course. Within minutes, even seconds, the horse will regain control and return to normal.

Most literature on equine narcolepsy agrees that episodes associated with narcolepsy, particularly cataplexy, do not occur during exercise. However, reports from horse owners differ.

Imipramine, a tricyclic antidepressant, is used to treat narcoleptic horses with inconsistent results. Atropine sulfate relieves the condition in horses for up to 30 hours. Both drugs can cause colic attacks, so the risk far outweighs the benefit. Sharon Doolittle, a Rhode Island veterinarian, has treated narcoleptic horses successfully with the antidepressant amitriptyline.

With or without drug therapy, narcoleptic horses require a little more monitoring and attention to their environment than normal horses. If you suspect you've got a sleeper on your hands, consider these tips:


Invest in breakaway snaps for your lead shanks and cross-ties.

Install rubber padding on the walls and floor of the horse's stall.

Remove any objects from the paddock, barn, and stall that could injure the horse if he were to collapse on or near them.

 

[Bounty]

From that it sounds more like cataplexy than bog-standard narcolepsy

... the text you quoted said that narcolepsy usually occurs during periods of nactivity and while the horse is standing relaxed. Although Rage wasn't working as such, he wasn't AT ALL relaxed and was being rather fidgety before it occured.

Thanks for that though, was interesting. Am pleased that it generally doesn't occur during exercise. I've been afraid to google anything, at least until I've had the vet look at him, because I thought I'd get confronted with horror stories which is the last thing I need at the moment

 

[the watcher]

The one i know has had this condition for a number of years. he isn't ridden, is out in a field on his own and has a large well padded stable - the collapsing only happens when he is completely relaxed so I would agree that the circumstances are quite different.

 

[alisonpook]

I had a horse on box rest who we believe fainted one morning . He had been on box rest for laminitis for around 6 weeks and was being treated for cushings with medication. He also had an irregular heart beat problem. He would stand with his head over the door waiting for breakfast but once he knew it was being mixed and about to arrive he would turn round back into his box and have a wee. I heard some banging while mixing the feed and assumed it was the horse next door to him who was a door banger at meal times. I got the shock of my life when I went to open the door to his stable to give him his feed and saw him down on the floor. My first reaction was that he had had a heart attack and was in his last moments as his eyes had glazed over and his hind legs were rigid and his gums were very pale and he just lay there immobile. He had gone down with his legs against the wall. A frantic phone call summoned help within a couple of minutes , during which time I was doing compressions on his chest . but the general concensus was that he was on his way out. We tried to roll him over in case he was cast but he was an absolute dead weight . He appeared to have given up trying to get up but I felt that I had to try and get him up asap and apologising profusely in case he was dying I shouted at him and pulled on his headcollar. This galvanised him to give a little wriggle like a fish on dry land which to our immense relief gave him a little more room and allowed him to heave himself to his feet and seemed ok. The vet came later in the day to check him out and could find no clear cause . The next morning I lead him out of his stable and he stopped at the next stable to scratch his mate over the door. As he lifted his head high to shift to a different scratching position his legs went wobbly and he began to stagger over the concrete and all but went down. The vet had advised us the previous day that in view of his ongoing heart and foot problems and age - he was 25 - that should he go down again that it was best to call it a day with him . I rang the vets and arranged for him to be pts the following day but as we did not want to run the risk of him going down in the stable and I could not bear to think of him having spent the last 6 weeks of his life cooped up in a stable it was agreed that he could have his last 24 hours in a small pen with shelter attached. To this day we do not know what made the difference but he improved so much overnight that the vet agreed to postphone his visit and three years on he is still with us and has not to our knowledge had a wobble since. We still have no idea what caused it but his heart problem was a major possibility plus I later read that pergolide could cause fainting in humans first thing in the morning when first prescribed. The vet had not heard any reports of this happening in horses but we played safe and as humans were recommended to wear bedsocks then he had thermatex wraps on at night! The vet said that he had had several horses faint but that usually by the time they arrived to examine the horse they had usually recovered.

 

[Bounty]

Gosh, that must have been terrifying

Glad to hear he's still with you though

To update...
Bloods have come back absolutely normal, so liver problems aren't the culprit. The next step is to fit him with an ECG and heart rate monitor during exercise to check his heart is working as it should (Fine during rest and after trot ups). As the vet and his colleagues think that it is highly unlikely to be an issue with his heart, mainly due to his age and the fact he wasn't excercising at the time of the collapse, we are going to work him conservatively over the next couple of weeks and see how he is. By conservatively I mean not taking him out on the roads, very minimal fast work and never riding him while alone, in case he crumples again

Vet ruled out any neurological issues and discarded narcolepsy and any girthing theories.

 

[AmyMay]

[ QUOTE ]
Has anyone had any experience of a horse 'fainting'?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yep. Freddy started doing this. He did it in the field a couple of times and once in the stable. He wasn't ridden, so no danger to a jockey. However my awful concern was him doing it in the stable, and doing himself some serious damage on the way down.

No cause was every found for it. However this, coupled with one or two other things, pursuaded me to have him put down.

 

[Bounty]

Out of interest... what routes did you go down when looking for an explanation?

 

[AmyMay]

[ QUOTE ]

Out of interest... what routes did you go down when looking for an explanation?

[/ QUOTE ]
The first time it happened I called the vet immediately. He checked the horse physically and also took bloods. The physical exam took place approximately 30 mins after it happened - and nothing was apparent. The blood test came back negative as well.

It then happened a couple more times over a period of three months. The horse would litteraly drop like a stone for no reason at all - and it was all very upsetting.

As I said, he did have some other issues - so the collapsing was the final nail in the coffin so to speak.

Had he been healthy in all other respects, and was able to be out 24/7 then I wouldn't have been so quick to put him down.

 

[Bounty]

How sad.
Just thought I'd ask in case you'd gone trundling off down a route that we hadn't even thought of yet.

 

[AmyMay]

Yes - I was very upset at loosing him.

But so far, I think you've covered all the angles.......

 

[Bounty]

It's just a case of damage limitation now... hence the posts about knee boots and quick release stirrup systems in the NL

How old was Freddy?

 

[AmyMay]

He was a 15 year old TB ex steeple chaser. Not old by any stretch of the imagination.

He wasn't ridden though (no longer sound), so the riding wasn't an issue. I have to say even if he was in work - I would have stopped it immediately.

Personally I wouldn't get on a horse that was prone to collapsing - but obviously that's a personal choice.......

 

[Bounty]

I certainly won't be doing any fast work, but as he's shown no other symptoms and it's not happened before or since we can't just stop working him completely.
Just before he went down he went backwards, and I really got a sense that he wasn't in control... I think I'd recognise that if it happened again and I'd be off straight away.

He's a 9yo TB, 10starts on the flat and over hurdles as a 2/3yo, and since then a bit of polo/polocrosse and general schooling....

 

[AmyMay]

[ QUOTE ]
He's a 9yo TB, 10starts on the flat and over hurdles

[/ QUOTE ]
Interesting.

I was convinced it was Freddy's heart. And I was also convinced it was due to the strain put on it during his racing career.

You know your horse - just be careful.

 

[ClaireT]

I went through a similar situation to AmyMay.
When I bought my horse I was warned to be careful tightening the girth as he would drop to the floor if it was too tight. This was never an issue so we continued for 12 months or so.
He then started to collapse when you picked out his front feet, not often, but once in a while. On the way to the vet school he fell in the lorry while it was stationary. The vet school ran every test and couldn't find a reason for it.
He fell in the lorry when we took him home....he then started to fall in the stable -once a week or so. Eventually my vet got the insurance co. to agree to a loss of use claim, as the vet school still would not recommend putting him down. We never did find out what caused it.

 

[Bounty]

Really sorry to hear that

I could almost cope with anything if I knew what was causing it... it's the not knowing that I'm finding really stressful

 

[TnHorseLover33]

Last summer my horse fainted as he was being walked to the pasture. Some dogs started barking and startled him and he fell over like he had been shot. After a minute or so he got right back up. It has never happened again. I hope it never does. Good Luck finding out what happened..

 

[goeslikestink]

shivers can do that - if a horse has it and goes to nod of whilse waiting for exsample horse falls over and sort of faints

nero logical syndrome or can be heart and blood