Family Protection Dogs

[MotherOfChickens]

I was reminded on another thread of an ad/page I saw in FB for family protection dogs-ie they produce attack trained dogs for families and also work with your own family dog. Lots of pics of happy toddlers with large working GSD etc. I don't know the first thing about protection dogs other than people saying such dogs are not for amateur handlers etc and dont really understand why you'd need one specifically as a family pet -is this a big thing in the UK?

 

[rabatsa]

A trainer I had once told me that teaching a dog bite work was like loading a gun, it can never be untaught and there was always a trigger.

 

[DabDab]

Sounds like a disgusting idea. Feels like it should be illegal/highly regulated really - an attack trained dog surely counts as a weapon??

 

[CorvusCorax]

A badly regulated industry where someone can pay thousands for a normal dog that can stand on the end of a lead and bark.
Like everything, there's good and bad, it's not something I am or would wish to be personally involved in.

Bitework has it's place for dogs of certain breeds, with sound genetics, nerves and character, under control and part of an overall programme of training.
The actions of a few can spoil things for those who do it properly as part of a breed evaluation, not for 'protection' or 'sport'.

 

[kimberleigh]

There are some good ones out there, but lots and lots of bad ones too!

Most bad ones prey on families who have some sort of fear, either through being attacked or broken into - or even just live in a place where that likelihood is a threat hanging over them.

There is a huge difference in a guard dog and a family/personal protection dog - in both the temperament and training levels of the dog.

A true guard dog is expected to work mainly alone, and show very little discernment between who is a friendly stranger and who is a danger...and so therefore are usually 1 person only dogs, not to be trusted around anyone else. They are usually the bite first, ask later types.

Family protection dogs should have a higher level of obedience and control than any dog you've ever met - and should be bombproof in each and every possible situation. Walking off lead down a busy highstreet with kids running around, dogs barking and people shouting should be no problem whatsoever. They should be either friendly or neutral with anyone the owner says is ok, regardless of the persons behaviour, but be willing to bite anyone the owner says is a threat...again regardless of persons behaviour.

It takes a very, very level headed dog to be able to do this successfully, and years of specialised training. But imo is the ultimate high in knowing a dog inside out and back to front.

Is there a genuine need for them? In the majority of cases, no! But in those that do you couldn't ask for a better family member than a dog who is willing to die to protect you if the situation arises...but is far safer and more trustworthy than a weapon or any person.

I think of it like this: a kitchen knife can be a deadly weapon...but not if you only use it to chop your veggies

 

[DabDab]

But the average family doesn't really meet the spec for the guardians of such a highly trained dog (even if it is highly trained as opposed to just taught to bite). It only takes one child to want to show off their pet dog's party trick without fully realising what could happen....

 

[kimberleigh]

But the average family doesn't really meet the spec for the guardians of such a highly trained dog (even if it is highly trained as opposed to just taught to bite). It only takes one child to want to show off their pet dog's party trick without fully realising what could happen....

That would be why there is such a high degree of training, and why the unscrupulous "trainers" are so dangerous - because a dog sold to the wrong family could end up a liability. It is also one of the reasons why a lot of trainers choose to train in a different language, so accidents dont happen.

I dont think I've ever heard a report of a 'trained' dog biting anyone it shouldnt (except police dogs but their training often leaves a lot to be desired!) But have heard plenty of 'normal pet dog attacks' type stories

 

[DabDab]

But that was my point - there's no regulation on these dogs is there?

In my example the dog wouldn't be biting someone it shouldn't though would it? It would be following the instructions of one of its family.

I'm not a fan on guns in a house where there are children, and they can be locked away. Knives are a bit different because you can't easily injure someone remotely with them.

I'm also not keen ethically on children growing up thinking of animals as weapons.

 

[Clodagh]

..but is far safer and more trustworthy than a weapon or any person.

But knives and guns lie inanimately in a drawer, and hopefully sharp knives and all guns are securely locked away. Having a protection dog running round your 3 year olds birthday party would be like leaving a loaded shotgun in the room - yes, so the safety is on, but that is easily removed.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

I'm also not keen ethically on children growing up thinking of animals as weapons.

yep. actually not keen on animals being used as weapons either and am on the edge re police dogs (and horses) and army dogs too.

 

[kimberleigh]

But knives and guns lie inanimately in a drawer, and hopefully sharp knives and all guns are securely locked away. Having a protection dog running round your 3 year olds birthday party would be like leaving a loaded shotgun in the room - yes, so the safety is on, but that is easily removed.

I wouldn't expect any responsible owner would allow any dog to run around a 3 year olds birthday party...but idiots are everywhere!

 

[{97702}]

I will no doubt get howls of outrage for saying this, but in my experience (working for a police force, not my friends 😛) the majority of families who are likely to think they need a protection dog are from the criminal fraternity.

I do not see any place in modern society for these massive guarding breeds which were bred for a purpose that is now obsolete.

I can’t remember the name of the breed now but someone mentioned some sort of Eastern European guarding sheepdog at work the other day - I’d never heard of it, so I googled it. There was footage of this breed on YouTube, and all the comments were from the scum who fight these dogs. Says it all to me.

Give me one good genuine reason why you would need, for example, one of the banned breeds? I absolutely recognise the legislation is appalling, don’t get me wrong, but I can’t see why anyone would need that sort of dog?

 

[AmyMay]

Just get a Chihuahua 😂🤣😁

 

[skinnydipper]

I can’t remember the name of the breed now but someone mentioned some sort of Eastern European guarding sheepdog at work the other day - I’d never heard of it, so I googled it. There was footage of this breed on YouTube, and all the comments were from the scum who fight these dogs. Says it all to me.

I totally agree. Livestock guardians are not pets, they are bred to do a job. We have one locally, who is doing his best to defend his 3 bedroom semi and garden from all comers to the point that he broke through the fencing and bit someone who was walking past the house. This dog came to his current home via a national dog rescue, to an owner who had never heard of a livestock guardian. The owner has reinforced the fencing and I think was fortunate that the person that was bitten did not insist on more drastic action.

 

[CorvusCorax]

A dog bred to live pretty much alone, outside, all year, patrolling the plains/mountains, big and strong enough to break through fences and doors in residential areas, then.....

 

[skinnydipper]

A dog bred to live pretty much alone, outside, all year, patrolling the plains/mountains, big and strong enough to break through fences and doors in residential areas, then.....

Yes, a tragedy waiting to happen. He spends a lot of time in the garden, which is on a corner so plenty of fence line to police. I avoid walking past on his side of the road.

 

[SpringArising]

The other day I was walking through a shopping centre when a tiny Staffy puppy came wriggling over to me to say hello. I bent down to stroke it and just as I did so the owner pulled it away and said 'Don't touch her, we're training her to be a guard dog', FFS.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Also, 'guard dogs' in the true sense in the UK cannot be on any premises unattended. There legally must be someone in the yard/facility/compound at all times.

 

[Moobli]

As has been said there are good and bad. My friend had a protection trained GSD and he was amazing. Superb obedience, level headed, and no threat to anyone unless required. My friend is however experienced, intelligent and kept up his training to a high level. I never felt uneasy around him. In fact I’d have stolen him given half a chance 😂

However, I’ve another friend who worked for one of the largest, most publicised protection dog companies for a very short period and was appalled at the unsound temperaments of some of the dogs being trained as well as the dubious training methods. Hence the reason she left pretty swiftly.

Regarding having large guarding breeds taught to bite around children, I don’t have an issue with it IF (and it’s a big if) the dog is of sound temperament and of impeccable nature and with top class, professional training. It also requires owners who are experienced or who are prepared to commit to ongoing training and who are responsible enough never to leave dog and child alone together.

As far as I know there have been no cases of protection trained dogs biting or fatally injuring anyone - whereas it’s relatively common to hear of untrained pet dogs biting people and when children are fatally wounded by dogs it usually follows a similar pattern (large breed, often bull breed, under trained, exercised and stimulated and child left alone with dog).

 

[Moobli]

I will no doubt get howls of outrage for saying this, but in my experience (working for a police force, not my friends 😛) the majority of families who are likely to think they need a protection dog are from the criminal fraternity.

I do not see any place in modern society for these massive guarding breeds which were bred for a purpose that is now obsolete.

I can’t remember the name of the breed now but someone mentioned some sort of Eastern European guarding sheepdog at work the other day - I’d never heard of it, so I googled it. There was footage of this breed on YouTube, and all the comments were from the scum who fight these dogs. Says it all to me.

Give me one good genuine reason why you would need, for example, one of the banned breeds? I absolutely recognise the legislation is appalling, don’t get me wrong, but I can’t see why anyone would need that sort of dog?

The livestock guardian breeds such as Caucasian or Anatolian shepherds are definitely not your average pet and I’d go as far as to say they are not really suited to life in the UK in most cases. They have been bred to live among their charges (usually sheep) and protect them from any threat vigorously and aggressively - to the death if necessary.

They are not banned but they really aren’t a suitable urban pet.

 

[Moobli]

The type of clients looking to spend £££ on personal protection dogs seem to be high end earners who feel unsafe in their own homes. Such as businessmen who are away from home a lot leaving the family in the mansion feeling unprotected.

Certainly a different type to the Caucasian shepherd buyers or Dogo Argentino owner.

 

[skinnydipper]

The livestock guardian breeds such as Caucasian or Anatolian shepherds are definitely not your average pet and I’d go as far as to say they are not really suited to life in the UK in most cases. They have been bred to live among their charges (usually sheep) and protect them from any threat vigorously and aggressively - to the death if necessary.

They are not banned but they really aren’t a suitable urban pet.

Totally agree.

The hapless soul who rehomed the Anatolian Shepherd didn't have a clue. On the other hand I sometimes see a chap with Ovcharkas and I think in his case they are some sort of status symbol (not sure if that's the right term). Why would you want a fearless dog which is used for control in Russian prisons? Is there is something lacking in the person who feels they need this type of dog?

Just remembered, I have also seen a Turkish Kangal in the town.

Just an ordinary market town, nothing special that would require the use of these breeds.

I think the word I was looking for was not status symbol but EGO.

 

[{97702}]

Ah thank you, that’s the breed I looked up - an Ovcharka! As I said, the only people commenting on the you tube clip (which was a perfectly ordinary ‘isn’t the breed nice’ sort of thing) were people who were into dog fighting in a big way....

 

[TheresaW]

I know Tia on here has Akbash’s, which wouldn’t be your everyday pet dog. They are livestock protectors I believe, and she is in Canada with the threat of wolves, coyotes etc. From pics I see on FB, they are pets as well, but know their job.

I do think in a real life situation, Aled would do his best to protect me. We were out one evening when a drunk approached asking me for a cigarette. Aled scared me for a minute 😂.

 

[vallin]

My uncle and his family have a personal protection GSD who is incredibly level headed, walked off lead by all the family in the centre of London (or on lead in areas that it is a legal requirement but the lead is very much for show so to speak) and is a genuinely lovely dog. He regularly goes back to his trainer for further training/refreshers and I trust him more than any other dog I've met. Like others have said, they have him as the children are often home alone, father regularly travels for work, and they all feel safer in his presence.

 

[skinnydipper]

I know Tia on here has Akbash’s, which wouldn’t be your everyday pet dog. They are livestock protectors I believe, and she is in Canada with the threat of wolves, coyotes etc. From pics I see on FB, they are pets as well, but know their job.

They are fortunate dogs to be in a position to do the job for which they have been selectively bred, which sadly is not the case round here.

 

[kimberleigh]

Give me one good genuine reason why you would need, for example, one of the banned breeds? I absolutely recognise the legislation is appalling, don’t get me wrong, but I can’t see why anyone would need that sort of dog?

What do you mean by "that sort of dog" - none of the banned breeds are any different to any other breed of dog in my opinion.

An American Pitbull Terrier can make just as gooda house pet, if not better, than your average spaniel!

Why does someone who lives in a city cul de sac want a working cocker spaniel? Or a vegetarian want a lurcher?

Horses for courses and any breed can make a good dog with the right owners and suitable living environment!

 

[CorvusCorax]

Whilst I agree that a lot of dog legislation is flawed, horses for courses literally means you pick a thoroughbred to race with.
Not a Clydesdale or a Friesian.
The same applies when picking a pet or working dog, which is why there isn't an Ovcharka on my sofa or a St Bernard out blitzing the agility rings.

The things that make working dogs good at their work, often precludes them from being suitable for the average sedentary pet home.

Some PP dog suppliers are selling imported molosser type breeds.

 

[{97702}]

What do you mean by "that sort of dog" - none of the banned breeds are any different to any other breed of dog in my opinion.

An American Pitbull Terrier can make just as gooda house pet, if not better, than your average spaniel!

Why does someone who lives in a city cul de sac want a working cocker spaniel? Or a vegetarian want a lurcher?

Horses for courses and any breed can make a good dog with the right owners and suitable living environment!

By ‘that sort of dog’ I mean more specifically one of the giant guarding breeds, who it appears quite often don’t have the right owners OR a suitable living environment when they are away from the job they were originally bred to do. As in the example given above.

 

[skinnydipper]

What do you mean by "that sort of dog" - none of the banned breeds are any different to any other breed of dog in my opinion.

An American Pitbull Terrier can make just as gooda house pet, if not better, than your average spaniel!

Why does someone who lives in a city cul de sac want a working cocker spaniel? Or a vegetarian want a lurcher?

Horses for courses and any breed can make a good dog with the right owners and suitable living environment!

I know your post was not directed at me but I would like to respond.

I have no problem with molosser breeds or bull breeds per se, in fact I have a soft spot for rotties and bull mastiffs.

The problem is that these dogs have more potential to do harm than your typical working cocker and they are the type of dog that frequently end up in the wrong hands. One clip in our town struts around with his American Bulldog with cropped ears, he is what Lev so eloquently describes as scum.

Could I also draw your attention to the case of the American Bulldog breeder whose arm was ripped off by two of his own dogs.