Fantastic Letter in H&H By David Pincus

[Anastasia]

I definately give the THUMPS UP to David Pincus of Sheepcote in this weeks H&H. He wrote a letter regarding "Do we need yet another breeder's scheme?" (page 14)

Great letter with a lot of sense!! Well said David!

 

[rabatsa]

I agree.

 

[Fahrenheit]

I haven't recieved my h&h yet...............so can't comment

 

[Anastasia]

Well whats the use in that then..

 

[Ciss]

So EVERYTHING I have contribuetd to the thread that arose from the seriously misreported item in H&H and all the information on the BEF web site about why and how the actual Lead Body will work and promote British Breeding by doing all the things that David Pincus says needs to be done but which, of course, they carefully missed out of their original news item has fallen on on deaf ears -- or perhaps I should say blank screens -- in this forum has it?

That's very discouraging to know. OTOH, as the Lead Body cannot function in Scotland because of devolution except by special invitation, those living north of the border probably feel mercifully unaffected by it. OTOH, I hear that the Scottish version of the Strategy for The Horse is amazingly close to the one for England and Wales, but if SSH refuses to take part then it will be a dead duck anyway. How gratifying for all concerned . Yet another excuse for lack of progress.

 

[Fahrenheit]

[ QUOTE ]
So EVERYTHING I have contribuetd to the thread that arose from the seriously misreported item in H&H and all the information on the BEF web site about why and how the actual Lead Body will work and promote British Breeding by doing all the things that David Pincus says needs to be done but which, of course, they carefully missed out of their original news item has fallen on on deaf ears -- or perhaps I should say blank screens -- in this forum has it?

That's very discouraging to know. OTOH, as the Lead Body cannot function in Scotland because of devolution except by special invitation, those living north of the border probably feel mercifully unaffected by it. OTOH, I hear that the Scottish version of the Strategy for The Horse is amazingly close to the one for England and Wales, but if SSH refuses to take part then it will be a dead duck anyway. How gratifying for all concerned . Yet another excuse for lack of progress.

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't read the letter concerned, so haven't commented, except on the fact that my h&h is late AGAIN! but I am sure that what you said didn't fall on deaf ears, there is always going to be people who differ no matter how hard you try, people will read and then formulate their own opinions. I know I read what you wrote and decided to wait and see what happens and how its going to work before commenting any further and put my sceptical thoughts on some of you commitee mates aside until I see it in action so to speak...

And Ciss, what on earth were you doing up at that time in the morning!!

 

[Anastasia]

Ciss this was waayyyy to easy.....

Everyone on here appreciates your input and without it as I said in the other post, we would be none the wiser of developments within our industry. However, there are always to sides to the coin so to speak and British Bred horses need far more recognition.

Holland, Germany and Belgium all have several auctions for their breeders throughout the year, be it breed association auctions, studs that have come together, or independent auctions where people take their horses to venues for selectors to look at. Some of these auctions are the result of several top dressage and showjumping riders getting together to use their name, one to make themselves some money, and secondly to help people sell their quality horses. Its a shame some of our own high profile riders in the UK could not do something like this for the UK.

Its very very easy to go abroad and select horses for auctions in the UK...that is not rocket science, you just have to look in the H&H every week and see how many dealers there are stating "new consignment of horses coming in this week...", and yes there are a lot of horses to select from compared to the UK.

However, the person/s who finally manage to make a go of an actual British Bred auction to me are the ones who will have proven they have put in the shear hard work, grit and determination.... Yes I realise that people want to get a return for their money and make something profitable...but it has to start somewhere.

What the SSH does or does not do is no longer within my remit as you well know (so this has definately landed on my deaf ears..

)...in my view its a shame that Scotland is doing it on their own anyway, I never understand the point in having two committees in one country discussing exactly the same thing...thats politics for you...

 

[Anastasia]

GOOD MORNING MY LITTLE LLT2.....

 

[Ciss]

[ QUOTE ]
Ciss this was waayyyy to easy.....

[/ QUOTE ]

What was? Is my response regarded as some sort of get out? Or was it just fun that I rose to the bait so easily? Well, I am sure that you would if you felt as frustrated by an argument cynicaly generated by a piece of deliberately biased reporting <sigh>. Its usually the PR people that re acused of spin, but in this case the spin was put in the actual news reprt. We would have been far better sending in an accurate Press release to appear in due course in the Sport Horse breeding section -- which might have been cut but at least would have been accurate -- so perhaps that is what we will do in the future. And once the meeting notes go up on the BEF web site in a couple of days (and these are full and accurate as I checked them ) then you will be able to see exactly who said what, when and why.

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone on here appreciates your input and without it as I said in the other post, we would be none the wiser of developments within our industry. However, there are always to sides to the coin so to speak and British Bred horses need far more recognition.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for that. What really frustrates me about all this is that it means that all the PREPARATORY (the LB hasn't even been officially launched yet but you would not know that from H&H) work has almost gone for nought (including 3 hour meeting at least once a month since January *as individuals* supported by many Power Point preparations outling aims, objectives, business/funding plans etc as required by the Strategy for the Horse plus development of a possible logo, web site design, BB magazine mock-ups which were circulated at the meeting but again H&H didn't mention that etc etc, and plans for stallion parades and regional roadshows becuase of the original inaccurate and very incomplete news report. As a result the regional roadshows -- instead of being a mainly consultative and action-creating series of events supported by dissemination of up-to-date info on such subjects as EVA, WNV, DEFRA and NED developments etc will inevitably be bogged down by endless refutations of the natural queries raised by the H&H rpeort:-(. I can think of far more effective way of using our time but that is obviously what we have to do now :-(.

Of course it might have been the preparation of all the above that is considered way too easy to do so perhaps others could have done it better, faster and more completely then we did, in which case I apologise on behalf of us all -- but actually I do not think that was the case.

If this happened then KWPN-registered horses bred here could be recognised at British-bred with the WBFSH which would certainly help unify British breeding in the long run as well as promoting the success of the animals born here (but not currently recognsied as such).

[ QUOTE ]
Holland, Germany and Belgium all have several auctions for their breeders throughout the year, be it breed association auctions, studs that have come together, or independent auctions where people take their horses to venues for selectors to look at. Some of these auctions are the result of several top dressage and showjumping riders getting together to use their name, one to make themselves some money, and secondly to help people sell their quality horses. Its a shame some of our own high profile riders in the UK could not do something like this for the UK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very true -- and that sort of idea is the kind of thing that only the Lead Body (as the unifying force across all breeds, breeders and studbooks) would be in a position to try to push forward in collaboration with the disciplines as well. So, there's a job that needs doing that you could volunteer for -- and it won't matter that you are in Aberdeen either as in the early stages it can all be done on the phone or by e-mail :- (BTW, congratulations to you and all your neighbours for out-trumping Trump last night )

[ QUOTE ]
Its very very easy to go abroad and select horses for auctions in the UK...that is not rocket science, you just have to look in the H&H every week and see how many dealers there are stating "new consignment of horses coming in this week...", and yes there are a lot of horses to select from compared to the UK.

[ QUOTE ]
What the SSH does or does not do is no longer within my remit as you well know (so this has definately landed on my deaf ears..

)...in my view its a shame that Scotland is doing it on their own anyway, I never understand the point in having two committees in one country discussing exactly the same thing...thats politics for you...

[/ QUOTE ]

As an English woman living south of the border (and on St Andrews day of all days ) I have to say 'You may say that, I coudl not possibly comment' <ROFL>

 

[Ciss]

[ QUOTE ]
[And Ciss, what on earth were you doing up at that time in the morning!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Unable to sleep with excitement becuase I am having lunch with Majix today <ROFL> . No seriously, bad cough so having difficulty sleeping <sigh>.

 

[DQ1]

I disagree with David Pincus. I'm really excited that we may have an entire magazine devoted to british breeding & I think the lead body sounds like it has some worthwhile aims that should be encouraged (although I will admit that before I read the explanation by Ciss on HHO that I groaned at the thought of another "quality logo scheme").

When working 24/7 in the horse breeding world I attended auctions, shows, gradings etc so could see the results.

Now that i am stuck behind a desk trying to earn enough money to set up my own stud in the future it has been a source of frustration to see how poor a lot of the studbooks are at their own PR & speed at updating websites.

In the case of stallion gradings, many people are planning their 08 sire choices & yet if you didn't attend the autumn stallion gradings for several of the major warmblood studbooks you are reduced to trawling forums to try & find out the results. We are catching up with Europe in terms of our horse quality but our PR skills leave a lot to be desired! For example, I sat at home & enjoyed watching, via online TV, the October Hanoverian licensing. Even when not available to watch via the internet, the big foreign studbooks post results quickly, often in 24 hours. We are now almost December, and the Hanoverian GB website has no results up from their licensing.

Also, on the topic of stallion gradings, an impartial body which can provide accurate information about each studbooks approval basis & the different performance levels is very much needed. Even as someone with a keen interest in breeding warmbloods, I find it difficult to keep track of the different demands at each grading as well as the different levels available within some studbooks. Then you also have mare ratings via the various studbooks. One website that collates & compares all this has my thumbs up - although some stallion owners who take advantage of such mis-information won't be quite so supportive ;-)

On a similar topic, perhaps it will be the BEF who has the power to crack down on some of the out right lies that are printed when promoting stallions. In any other industry, lying about your products would quickly get you in trouble with Trading Standards & possible a court case or 3!!

And yet in the horse world there are blatant lies being used to "sell" a stallion. I'm involved in PR so it's not the puff that annoys me, everyone has the right to present their product in the best light but it's the outright lies that annoy me! In some cases this is more of a case of being clever with wording & what is implied - such as the stallions advertised as "Any name stallion " 17hh 1993 KWPN, AES etc.... Yes, it may have KWPN papers itself but has never been approved by them, which is what the strapline implies to a lot of people.

Worse than that though are the outright lies "competed at Grand Prix" when it has never gone above PSG or " fully papered Danish Warmblood " when it has neither danish papers or grading!! As examples like these are rife, including stallions owned or promoted by major figures in the warmblood studbooks, then the studbooks are unlikely to crack down it ;-) so here's a juicy story for the first issue of the mag Ciss!!

On the topic of the Sport Horse Centre (aka VDL stud UK!!! ;-) ) I will leave that for another thread.

(edited for typos!)

 

[Wisnette]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I must have made my point as since then -- apart from going to the KWPN event to listen to Johann Knapp on his grading techniques and use the opportunity for an on-the -run LB working party meeting at the same time -- the BEF has not been involved at all, apart form giving Pat Ruck on some advice on how to get a daughter branch of the KWPN recognised as a studbook PIO by DEFRA. If this happened then KWPN-registered horses bred here could be recognised at British-bred with the WBFSH which would certainly help unify British breeding in the long run as well as promoting the success of the animals born here (but not currently recognsied as such).

[/ QUOTE ]

As far as I am aware, the WBFSH is only interested in which studbook a horse is registered with and it is irrelevant to them where it is born. To say therefore that the WBFSH doesn't recognise horses born in the UK as British bred seems a rather odd spin to put on things. Its more accurate to say the BEF, in the futurity evaluations, won't recognise a horse registered with a foreign based society as British bred.

And by the way, if you will name drop, I suggest you try to get the name right - he is Johan Knaap.

 

[Ciss]

[ QUOTE ]

As far as I am aware, the WBFSH is only interested in which studbook a horse is registered with and it is irrelevant to them where it is born. To say therefore that the WBFSH doesn't recognise horses born in the UK as British bred seems a rather odd spin to put on things. Its more accurate to say the BEF, in the futurity evaluations, won't recognise a horse registered with a foreign based society as British bred.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is why the WBFSH has set up a working group to try to identify how a horse can be attributed with the correct nationality when it has papers from a studbook based abroad is it? And also devoted a whole section of the General Assembly to discussing this issue, especially as it affects the 'emerging' countries (it was actually the first item that came up and nearly blew the timing off completely becuase the concern studbooks have about it) . Oh yes, and this lack of interest must have been, why -- when I was sitting between Siem Korver and Paul Graugard at the official GA dinner (BTW, the KWPN did the seating plan ) -- they were very concerned about the issue too, and no I did not raise the subject, the reps from Canada did.

[ QUOTE ]
And by the way, if you will name drop, I suggest you try to get the name right - he is Johan Knaap.

[/ QUOTE ]

You want name dropping, I'll give you REAL name dropping (not just 'I was in the audience when .. ') <ROFL> but sorry about the mistype of name, although everyone does it that is no excuse.

 

[The Voice]

ciss - are you the same person who wrote a very informative book about 15 years ago?

Not having a pop at anyone but with all the information, attendances at seminars and name dropping that has been going on, why is it that all of this knowledge and contacts been used productively to get things sorted?

As someone said on another thread, they do not care what color or model it is but that the horse can do the job. Do you think that the focus has been drawn away from the real issue of help funding the actual breeding and producing of quality horses rather than what they are called? A good horse will always sell if it can do the job.

 

[Wisnette]

[ QUOTE ]
Which is why the WBFSH has set up a working group to try to identify how a horse can be attributed with the correct nationality when it has papers from a studbook based abroad is it? And also devoted a whole section of the General Assembly to discussing this issue, especially as it affects the 'emerging' countries (it was actually the first item that came up and nearly blew the timing off completely becuase the concern studbooks have about it) . Oh yes, and this lack of interest must have been, why -- when I was sitting between Siem Korver and Paul Graugard at the official GA dinner (BTW, the KWPN did the seating plan ) -- they were very concerned about the issue too, and no I did not raise the subject, the reps from Canada did.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ciss, you focus solely on my admittedly sloppy use of the word 'interested' and seem to have missed the point.

I don't doubt people are interested in the WBFSH publishing horses' nationality - I am interested and from an earlier thread on here it would seem a lot of other UK breeders are too.

Perhaps instead of 'interested' I should have more accurately said "the WBFSH currently publish which studbook a horse is registered with and they currently do not publish where it is born". The point I made remains the same: it is bizarre for anyone to say the WBFSH doesn't recognised horses born in the UK as British bred. You could equally say, it doesn't recognise horses born in Holland as Dutch-bred - place of birth is just not a detail it currently acknowledges. And as I said before, the real irony here is the BEF is actually the one that acknowledges place of birth but won't recognise UK horses registered with foreign based studbooks as British bred.

[ QUOTE ]
You want name dropping, I'll give you REAL name dropping (not just 'I was in the audience when .. ') <ROFL> but sorry about the mistype of name, although everyone does it that is no excuse.

[/ QUOTE ]

And no, I didn't say I wanted name dropping, you are again misconstruing what I said. What I did say was that if you WILL name drop, its better if the name is right.

 

[Ciss]

[ QUOTE ]
ciss - are you the same person who wrote a very informative book about 15 years ago?

[/ QUOTE ]


Yes and there was a revised version about 7 years ago I think. But of course I am sure that there are many people on this forum who think that they could have done a much better job of it than me and my co-authors.

[ QUOTE ]
Not having a pop at anyone but with all the information, attendances at seminars and name dropping that has been going on, why is it that all of this knowledge and contacts been used productively to get things sorted?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, don't know quite what you are getting at here -- but perhaps the words ' have not' are missing between contacts and been? If that is the case, do you mean that people have not used their knowledge (such that it is) effectively enough to help with the development of British breeding, or that people have not used the skills others can provide if asked effectively enough? I must admit I don't know the answer to either question, although I personally have always done my best to try to help get things moving forward, so I do hope its not the first question that you are asking.

[ QUOTE ]
As someone said on another thread, they do not care what color or model it is but that the horse can do the job. Do you think that the focus has been drawn away from the real issue of help funding the actual breeding and producing of quality horses rather than what they are called? A good horse will always sell if it can do the job.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whever the studbook or breed of horse it should always be the aim of a breeder in the UK to provide the best horse that they possibly can for whatever purpose they are breeding it -- so Yes colour, breed, studbook etc should not matter. What should matter is soundness, good temperament and a pedigree that proves the horse's genetic background is fit for purpose.

HTH

 

[catza]

[ QUOTE ]


Whever the studbook or breed of horse it should always be the aim of a breeder in the UK to provide the best horse that they possibly can for whatever purpose they are breeding it -- so Yes colour, breed, studbook etc should not matter. What should matter is soundness, good temperament and a pedigree that proves the horse's genetic background is fit for purpose.

HTH

[/ QUOTE ]

Couldn't agree more ciss

 

[Ciss]

[ QUOTE ]
Ciss, you focus solely on my admittedly sloppy use of the word 'interested' and seem to have missed the point.

I don't doubt people are interested in the WBFSH publishing horses' nationality - I am interested and from an earlier thread on here it would seem a lot of other UK breeders are too.

Perhaps instead of 'interested' I should have more accurately said "the WBFSH currently publish which studbook a horse is registered with and they currently do not publish where it is born". The point I made remains the same: it is bizarre for anyone to say the WBFSH doesn't recognised horses born in the UK as British bred. You could equally say, it doesn't recognise horses born in Holland as Dutch-bred - place of birth is just not a detail it currently acknowledges.

[/ QUOTE ]

But it is something that they intend to try to rectify in the near future and doing this by identifying the UELNs provided by the correct *country of birth* (through daughter societies if appropriate) is something they are definetly working on, whatever you may wish to be the case.

[ QUOTE ]
And as I said before, the real irony here is the BEF is actually the one that acknowledges place of birth but won't recognise UK horses registered with foreign based studbooks as British bred.

[/ QUOTE ]


As they do not have UK UELNs -- although accidentally all the KWPN foals born in the UK have a code begiing 826004 which recognsies them internatioally as horses regaitered with the British Association for the Pure-bred Spanish Horse <ROFL> due to an internal mistake at the KWPN -- they cannot be recognsied internationally as British bred when the WBFSH does bring in country-based listings as well so its definetly not a crazy policy

[ QUOTE ]
You want name dropping, I'll give you REAL name dropping (not just 'I was in the audience when .. ') <ROFL> but sorry about the mistype of name, although everyone does it that is no excuse.
[ QUOTE ]
And no, I didn't say I wanted name dropping, you are again misconstruing what I said. What I did say was that if you WILL name drop, its better if the name is right.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah a serious loss of humour here then -- or to quote Lady Thatcher when my husband and I last had dinner with them 'Exactly who started the pointless conversation about airports Dennis? ' <ROFL>

 

[The Voice]

ciss - are you the same person who wrote a very informative book about 15 years ago?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Yes and there was a revised version about 7 years ago I think. But of course I am sure that there are many people on this forum who think that they could have done a much better job of it than me and my co-authors.

I would like to thank you as it was you book that got as really interested in the horse breeding side of things and looking at bloodlines and the importance of them. We knew we had a good mare and speaking to you at an AES grading at Addington (I think) confirmed what we had learnt and the rest they say is history..... keep up the good work

yes sorry about the grammer but it is hard to concentrate whilst eating a bacon butty in one hane hand, coffee in the other, phone under the chin and typing with my nose!

 

[springfallstud]

I have never read this book but would love to but can only find cheapest one is 199 dollars from the states!!!!

 

[Ciss]

[ QUOTE ]
I have never read this book but would love to but can only find cheapest one is 199 dollars from the states!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I'm afraid that's right. The publisher and I have been trying to get a new book -- along the same lines but covering sport horse breeds as well so called The Modern Sports Horse -- on to the market fora couple of years, but it needs to be an American co-edition to break even and with the current dollar conversion rate its a bit difficult to get any sort of agreement signed. Yet another sopin off from the sub-prime saga I'm afraid :-(

 

[Anastasia]

Nothing like a good ole debate, and a lot of learning.....

[ QUOTE ]
Or was it just fun that I rose to the bait so easily?

[/ QUOTE ] The answer to the question is ..........yes

..... but its only because I know how passionately you are for the work that is done....and it would be silly to think any differently...

 

[henryhorn]

Ciss I'm completely lost with this issue but I wanted to say I so agree with your last words, breeders should be trying to breed the best horses for their purpose, temperament & soundness to me are more important in the end product than potential competition success,. I breed for a specific market, of which there seems to be a gap, there are so many people attempting to breed world class horses and whilst I agree we need them, there is also an average rider who wants a sane, sound, willing horse they can keep at DIY, go hunting BSJA, BD and BE at the lower levels on, and isn't going to be more than they can handle or afford to buy.
I have no problem selling any of our four year olds, last time we had over 50 phone calls, and the first to view bought (yes, my prices are going up

) but looking at breeding from the outside (I am currently struggling to get some of my stock registered because although we know their pedigree, without DNA or blood typing weatherby's won't give proper breeding papers, they are saying despite having NTR papers they don't count!) I get slightly worried that the main emphasis these days seems to be on warmblood horses as if no other breeds compare.
Is it because the warmblood breeders are more vociferous or is it because we have more of them in the UK than any other type now?
I'd love someone knowledgeable to explain! (without shouting

)

 

[Anastasia]

HH thanks for your valuable input into this discussion...and I dont think anyone would shout at you....

I agree with what you are saying. The average person you are selling too (like us) is not the International rider with Olympic visions, but somebody wanting a very rideable horse that they can enjoy at weekends or whenever it suits.

I think there is a lot of emphasis on the warmblood horses just because in all the press, be it H&H, Eurosport etc they are always talking about the breeding of the horses and a lot of the time it is warmblood sires.

I certainly do not think that warmbloods are the be all and end all, and that other breeds are just as important. We have to remember that warmbloods derive from TB's, draught horses, arabs, spanish horses etc..

I was at the KWPN International Meeting in Den Bosch this year in February and Johan Knapp was doing a presentation on the KWPN horse worldwide.

During the question and answer period an American lady asked the following question:

[ QUOTE ]
"In North America we have a lot of people just wanting hunter horses, those horses that are used for everyday purpose, and for people with no huge aspirations to be world beaters...why does the KWPN not cater for this market?"

[/ QUOTE ]

Johan said:
[ QUOTE ]
As a breed association we have to set ourselves goals. The goals of the KWPN is to breed the next World Cup or Olympic horse. Without setting a high goal then we are not trying to achieve our best as breeders. However, only a very small % of these horses go on to this level, the other horses make valuable riding horses for the average person or for those in mid level competition, but with the quality and high standards of the breed. However, without the high aspirations we also would not have KWPN horses successful in top level sport.

[/ QUOTE ]

Myself as a breeder, over the years we have been slowly replacing each mare with what we hope is a better mare in their place. With the emphasis on the breeding lines, the temperament, conformation, soundness and performance of that mare line. We then put these mares to our own stallions or use other stallions to produce the foals.

Many of the stock we sell go to people who are now witnessing for themselves the fact they can get rideable well bred horses. But also the fact that some of these riders want to know that they perhaps do have the horsepower there, if they so wish, to try and better themselves in competition etc.

One of our clients purchased a filly from us who was by our own stallion out of our Elite Wolfgang mare. She then talked about selling her because she felt she was "too good" for her. We said that was nonsense and that she had the chance of doing things with this mare that she might not have with another horse, and that she would hopefully grow and learn as a rider from the opportunity of riding this horse.

I hear too many times people saying the above, yes some people may think a horse is wasted with some riders, and this may be the case, but these riders need the opportunity also...because otherwise where do we then find the next Carl Hester or John Whittaker??

That is just my two pennies worth........

 

[volatis]

Anastasia thats exactly our philiosophy. Try and breed the very best you can, breed a horse with the best movement, conformation and all round quality that you can. If you are lucky and all the genetics fall into place, you get a superstar. If they don't, you will have a sound athletic horse with great ridability that could be a fun RC horse for someone but also has that extra scope to go higher/further should the owner wish.
The horse doesn't know you were dreaming of Olympic glory when you sat down and did the mating plan. As long as he's fed, watered etc etc he'll be just as happy popping round a RC course as he would round Aachen. I dont see why amateur riders dont deserve the best in terms of scope and athleticism. I'd rather ride a horse that had the capability to go higher and further and so found the level I was riding at well within himself, than ride a horse that was always having to give 100% all of the time

 

[Wisnette]

[ QUOTE ]
But it is something that they intend to try to rectify in the near future and doing this by identifying the UELNs provided by the correct *country of birth* (through daughter societies if appropriate) is something they are definetly working on, whatever you may wish to be the case.


[/ QUOTE ]

Really? How odd.

I thought at the recent WBFSH annual meeting, it was strongly emphasised that the purpose of the UELNs was to tell you the *database* that a foal was registered in at birth and no more.

Its good to see that the BEF seems to be coming round over foreign based studbooks too. Did you see Jan Rogers comment in H&H? It would appear the BEF are starting to re-consider their position on horses registered in foreign based studbooks. Hurray! The more horses in NED and the more info it holds, the more useful it becomes for everyone.

 

[Ciss]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But it is something that they intend to try to rectify in the near future and doing this by identifying the UELNs provided by the correct *country of birth* (through daughter societies if appropriate) is something they are definetly working on, whatever you may wish to be the case.


[/ QUOTE ]

Really? How odd.

I thought at the recent WBFSH annual meeting, it was strongly emphasised that the purpose of the UELNs was to tell you the *database* that a foal was registered in at birth and no more.

[/ QUOTE ]

The UELN has three parts to it, the first three digits are *THE COUNTRY CODE* of the place where the database is held, the second three digits are the specific code for that PIO database within the country itself and the final nine digits are for the horse's registration number as issued by the PIO concerned. So the country of origin of the passport is embedded in the UELN and this is what is now causing problems for the WBFSH and for countries (not just the UK but the USA, Mexico, Argentina, South Africa and Brazil) who are over-run by foreign studbooks coming in and grading and registering animals with a UELN that has no connection wuith the animal's actual country of birth.This was not helped by a rather unfortunate administrative error (their explanation) made recentlu by the KWPN in issuing foreign-born foals born in 2007 with passports carrying UELN's begining with the country code of brith and a second group of digits of their own making often allocating the animal to a totally inappropriate studbook -- in the case of UK foals designating them as having papers issued by the British Association for the Pure-bred Spanish Horse (!) and in Mexico making them wholly illegal because Mexican numbers can only be issued by the Mexican government <sigh>. I gather this is now being rectified (after very strong complaints from the countries concerned) and new UELNs are now being issued, but if visiting studbooks had the courtesy to form daughter societies in those countries they visit (which the WBFSH is now encouraging them to do, especially as those daughter studbooks can now apply for -- and gain -- WBFSH membership in their own right) the such fiascos as this would never arise.

[ QUOTE ]
[Its good to see that the BEF seems to be coming round over foreign based studbooks too. Did you see Jan Rogers comment in H&H? It would appear the BEF are starting to re-consider their position on horses registered in foreign based studbooks. Hurray! The more horses in NED and the more info it holds, the more useful it becomes for everyone.

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The NED registration of foreign horses has always been automtaic (not just 'allowed') if these animals have been overstamped by a studbook PIO as full breeding details etc of them are uploaded onto NED by the PIO concerned in the normal way. The change of policy you refer to is mainly aimed at adult horses (generaly geldings and especially dressage horses and show jumpers) who come over here with a complete and correct passports issued abroad but who cannot have their breeding details etc entered on NED becuase the disciplines are not allowed to do this becuase they have no way of verifying them. However, once NED goes fully on-line, if the horse is registered onto NED directly by its owner then breeding details and competition success immediately cross-reference to the benefit of all concerned.

Animals taking part in the Futurity YHEs (and therfore by definition born here) are still required to have their passports overstamped by a UK PIO to have their UELN uploaded that way and anyway, if it would be cheaper to do it directly via NED (and there will be a charge for dorect registration etc) than via a studbook PIO is still a matter for NED pricing policy -- but don't necessarily hokld your breath. OTOH, indvidual members of the Lead Body will have free access to NED and reduced rates of registration etc so you could consider going that route as it might be the cheapest .

How much easier it would be if those so concerned with promoting a foreign studbook in this country looked at the solutions that the WBFSH is trying to develop to address such problems as encountered in Mexico etc and got together with the studbook concerned to form a UK daughter society. But that would be a much too positive a step in supporting British breeding so I best just dream on <sigh>

 

[The Voice]

"The change of policy you refer to is mainly aimed at adult horses (generaly geldings and especially dressage horses and show jumpers) who come over here with a complete and correct passports issued abroad but who cannot have their breeding details etc entered on NED becuase the disciplines are not allowed to do this becuase they have no way of verifying them. However, once NED goes fully on-line, if the horse is registered onto NED directly by its owner then breeding details and competition success immediately cross-reference to the benefit of all concerned."

This has been my biggest complaint about horse passports and NED as these are the horses that are of interest to breeders as they are amongst the best horses in the country and not the 95% of horses that have 'Unknown' breeding. Many of the top horses in this country will NOT appear on NED. IF it had been done correctly at the start with one PIO and every horse was given a registration number and run like DVLA this would have solved many of the problems and saved hundreds of thousands of pounds that could have been invested elsewhere in the industry. The other thing is about data protection as why would people with valuable horses want to put their details into the public domain? Instead of bumbling it through they should have stopped and listened to people who know about these things.

What incentive is there for as an example showjumpers to complete more paperwork when they are only interested in jumping a horse?

 

[Wisnette]

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The UELN has three parts to it, the first three digits are *THE COUNTRY CODE* of the place where the database is held, the second three digits are the specific code for that PIO database within the country itself and the final nine digits are for the horse's registration number as issued by the PIO concerned.

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Good, glad you now concede the UELN identifies the country of the studbook and not actually the place of birth of the foal.

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How much easier it would be if those so concerned with promoting a foreign studbook in this country looked at the solutions that the WBFSH is trying to develop to address such problems as encountered in Mexico etc and got together with the studbook concerned to form a UK daughter society. But that would be a much too positive a step in supporting British breeding so I best just dream on <sigh>

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Sadly, I don't see how creating yet another British based studbook that is so small it has barely enough resources to operate, so few horses it will never appear above 20th in the WBFSH rankings and no power what so ever on a world stage, is going to help British breeders in any way. That to me is a backward step and I know I am not alone in thinking this - hence the enthusiastic welcome to the Oldenburg V, KWPN, Danish warmblood and all the other 'foreign' societies that offer direct membership to a large, successful, world recognised studbook. But I appreciate that your opinion is different to this and so we will have to agree to disagree on this.

 

[SJFAN]

Oh, how true.

I have noticed how often the pedigree information of horses ridden by GB riders is missing from starting lists/results lists at international shows. Quite often the owner's name doesn't appear either. I spend ages researching the details for my show reports on www.equestrian.co.uk.