FAO GinaB - P@H and choke chains

CorvusCorax

CorvusCorax

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So I toddled into a NW branch of Pets at Home after your thread last week.

Perused the aisles with interest. Walked up to checkout.

Me: Have you stopped selling choke chains?
Girl: Yes.
Me: Not just here? The whole franchise?
Girl: Yes
Me: And half chokes?
Girl: No, they should be there.
Me: They aren't, but anyway, why have you stopped selling choke chains, is it for humane reasons?
Girl: Yes
Me: But you still sell slip leads, they do exactly the same thing and have exactly the same action.
Girl: I think it is the chain that is the problem.
Me: That's daft. You have chain leads and chain couplers. And slip leads.
Girl, with slightly pained expression: I know!

Like choke/check chains or not (and I do, for the record, I have personal experience that, used properly, they are a useful training aid) - but to ban a chain collar for humane reasons but to then stock a lead which does exactly the same thing (and can be more harsh, the thinner they are!) is just plain bonkers IMHO!
 
I went in Jollyes today and they still sell them.

The staff were in the process of selling a harness to a tiny Women with a stonking great lab that she was struggling to control
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I was extremely restrained and didn't tell her she would be better off with a check chain and lots of work!

How bonkers that they still sell Slip Leads though!
 
It is very stupid.
I would understand if they stopped selling all of them because i have seen the problems they cause in the wrong hands but to continue to sell one and not the other is stupid.
 
Flamehead, slip leads are fine, my dogs have them and I personally have no problem with check or choke chains either, but as Katey says to sell one and not the other (they do the same thing, but are made from different materials) is daft.

Katey I agree, I wince when I see them being used incorrectly, upside down so they can't be released, used with a tiny lead so the dog is never even able to feel what it is like to walk slack, but I use the same principle as being able to buy cheap wine from Tesco, when there are talks of hoiking up prices to prevent anti-social behaviour and binge drinking - why should I be punished for the actions of dimwits?
 
I wonder if it is the same in Pets at home over here? I honestly don't think you can beat a choke/check chain to make a dog walk to heel. I agree people need to be shown how to put them on properly, but used correctly they do the job they are meant to, without strangling the dog when it is behaving. I actually think they release better than a rope slip lead, ime the latter sometimes get clogged by hair (well in moulting GSDs they do) which reduces the slip effect. I hate the current trend for harnesses for everything, I have seen small dogs walking almost on their hind legs being held up by a harness, what is wrong with a bit of training
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I wonder if it is the same in Pets at home over here? I honestly don't think you can beat a choke/check chain to make a dog walk to heel. I agree people need to be shown how to put them on properly, but used correctly they do the job they are meant to, without strangling the dog when it is behaving. I actually think they release better than a rope slip lead, ime the latter sometimes get clogged by hair (well in moulting GSDs they do) which reduces the slip effect. I hate the current trend for harnesses for everything, I have seen small dogs walking almost on their hind legs being held up by a harness, what is wrong with a bit of training
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But the same thing could be said for slip leads as you have said for harnesses.
You can train a dog as well with a harness as a check chain.
I have seen dogs up on there back legs hacking their guts up because someone is letting them pull on a check chain.

My dog wears a harness because before we got him the people used a choke chain on him and collapsed his trachea and now he can't have any pull on his collar at all.
Its the training not the product.
 
The whole point is a dog on a correctly used check chain shouldn't be pulling. With correct use of the give and take, change direction etc training it should learn to walk to heel. I have never trained a dog in a harness so cannot speak from experience but it looks to me as if you are working against the strongest part of the dog, which seems strange. I can understand in your poor dog with a damaged trachea that a harness is the best option though. I do agree with you that it actually all comes down to training whatever you use, its just that the only dogs I have ever seen in harnesses all seem to be dragging their owners along, so training doesn't seem to come into the equation
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I know i do totally agree with you.
Its just that check chains are a harsher training aid but a harness is still an aid and people need to see it like that.

My dear old nan said to me a while ago she hates seeing dogs in all this new fangled stuff in her day if a dog didn't walk to heel it got lost and starved!
 
I agree with both of you!

There is no point in using a choke chain if it isn't fitted correctly or if the dog never gets to feel what a slack chain feels like.
The wee female whose owner I have been helping has a HUGE choke chain and a short lead, so she never knew anything different than to pull against it because there was never enough slack in it and when it did go loose it was almost around her shoulders so was having no good effect at all.
I do like slip leads better in this respect as you can move the stopper to make sure it does not open too wide.


(And I agree with you Hen too, I meant to say your name instead of mentioning Katey twice in the same post but was too late to edit it, hope you aren't offended
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(And I agree with you Hen too, I meant to say your name instead of mentioning Katey twice in the same post but was too late to edit it, hope you aren't offended
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)

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Deeply
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What I want to know is, where the bleedin heck is GinaB throughout all this!?
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Interesting thread. I have to say I used a check chain and still would but I can't be bothered anymore with all the "nice gone too far" type people.

I went through a terrible time with Xara when she was younger, she's a big dog & there was a stage where I just couldn't hold her. I wasn't getting anywhere with her at training school either, she was lunging at other dogs, being a gobby moo & I was at my wits end.

Took her to a trainer who trains Schutzhund & well, I have a different dog now. There was no unkindness, no bullying, firm & fair and I am so glad I took the time out & went there, they used these collars & I even bought one from them, they train police/military dogs & they use them.

We chatted about the collars and the effect they have & how to use them and I asked the question are they a bit severe and the answer was, it's no more severe than you putting a stronger bit in your horses mouth when going across country, or jumping etc and I thought about it, did I ride my horse xc, or jump in a snaffle - nope!!

Anyway, since then Xara is a pleasure to walk on a lead, her heel work is beautiful, a pleasure meeting other dogs, it wasn't all about the collar, more the "correct training" and these guys were brilliant.

I since wanted to do some KC stuff with Xara and they wouldn't let me use the collar so had to go & buy a half check, which I bought from Pets at Home, there were no check chains in their shop at all.

I don't have a problem with check/choke/slips at all so long as you know how to use them, I too have seen people with them on upside down but unfortunately I have a big mouth and I tell them
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Sounds to me like you are describing a "german" large link check/choke collar. That is what I use all the time. Not quite sure why you couldn't use it for KC though, they used to be used all the time. I will try and find a picture of the type I mean.
 
Oh, just a heavy link choke then - we used to show in those (in the dead position) why wouldn't the KC let you use those?! I think they are actually less severe than the little thin link ones.
Hey ho!
 
Is this what you mean N?
http://www.ccvsales.com/aom/index.php?c=...e_chain_25_inch

As CC says we always used to show in those, I still use them all the time, and if I ever showed Evie that is what I would use, so good job I am not planning it. I had a real problem finding a link (oops no pun intended) to put on here so maybe they aren't so easy to get hold off. I always used to get people to bring them back for me from Sieger show, hope they are still available over there or I am stumped in the future
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Right, I'm back...where's my cornflake bun?!

I am LOLing at you going and picking on the poor check out girl H_H
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But again, ridiculous they still sell slips. I'm coming down with the bloody things though. I'm heading to Jollyes at the weekend to stock up so gonna purchase a choke while I'm there.
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Yes MM - pretty much the same as that but brass & mine seems very heavy, thicker links, I've searched the net & can't really find any, this being the most similar:
http://www.rayallen.com/fullsize/298/14

I can't believe I don't have a picture with Xara wearing it.

Anyway, don't know about you MM but I was told to take if off Xara and lots of tut tutting by trainer at my local KC registered dog club, so had to buy a half check, didn't stay at that club very long though
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I am the only one at my training club using one. I did start her in a half check when she was younger, and smaller, but have swapped to the large link. Trainer not bothered, but she did used to show GSDs so probably used to them. Think you probably did the right thing leaving the training club, suspect it was just the trainers problem and nothing to do with the KC. I may get shot down for this but I think it is maybe a bit to easy to set up as a trainer nowadays. I know of more than one trainer locally who is fine teaching biddable dogs but has no idea if someone turns up with a problem, yet surely that is what the trainer is there for
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Ets. Your pic looks the same as my collars, only mine aren't posh brass ones
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I can't see the issue with that chain if you are using it correctly?

I went to the place over here where they train police GSDs as well as the dogs used for sniffing (mostly labs and springers) and the GSDs wore those larger link chains but a few of the more headstrong ones also had these weird little thin collars on, that sat closer to the ears. They only came into play if the dog was getting too carried away. I can't remember what they were called though.
 
Yes quite - an instance at said club was that Xara took an immediate dislike to this black lab for no apparent reason & started lunging again. I was sitting on a chair and she was wrapping her legs around mine & lunging forward, my shins were bruised all the way up & she'd ripped my trousers, said trainer kept walking over & patting her & feeding her sausages - I was not impressed, yes, why not let her just go over to the dog, do her worst & then reward her for it - twat. I didn't go back.
 
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I can't see the issue with that chain if you are using it correctly?

I went to the place over here where they train police GSDs as well as the dogs used for sniffing (mostly labs and springers) and the GSDs wore those larger link chains but a few of the more headstrong ones also had these weird little thin collars on, that sat closer to the ears. They only came into play if the dog was getting too carried away. I can't remember what they were called though.

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Yes, one of my trainers uses the very thin slip-type material collars on his bitch, right up at the top of the neck.
Ideally that is where any slip or choke should be placed if it is being used as a control aid.
The further down the neck it is, the more redundant (and potentially dangerous) it is.
You probably met at least one of our club members
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N, that is ridiculous about X being rewarded for being a moo-bag! I would hate to see what your old club would think of me using a pinch collar.

The thinner any slip, choke chain or collar, the more severe its' action. The dogs at our club who take part in protection work are not allowed to wear choke chains or thin collars when taking part in that element, they wear large, broad collars because if they strain against a thin collar or chain then it puts more pressure on their windpipe and they are unable to bark at the agitator.
 
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