Farmers land owners etc. Allowing riders on land?

[Goldenstar]

It’s is about hassle and fear of people being stupid and the right to enjoy their place of work without having to pander to a load of people who think the world revolves around their horses .
And farms are dangerous farmers do all sorts of things that are dangerous there was a lady killed near here where a farmer was moving cows and she was in the wrong place at the wrong time .

 

[Goldenstar]

I can understand insurance issues but I am sure there would be a way round it. After all we ride on the roads with massive risks from traffic, loose dogs cyclists etc etc.
Surely a way of getting riders off roads would make sense.

How can there be a way around the liability issue .
The risk of a negligence claim against is ever present for those who own and manage land .
Even if it’s a stupid claim the stress of it will be considerable .

 

[ycbm]

I can understand insurance issues but I am sure there would be a way round it. After all we ride on the roads with massive risks from traffic, loose dogs cyclists etc etc.
Surely a way of getting riders off roads would make sense.

It makes sense to us Sandstone, because we want it. It doesn't make sense to anyone who owns or manages the land.

People tried, I mentioned UKChasers earlier. It didn't make financial sense.

There are two 5+ mile farm rides round here. They charge close to £20 a circuit. That's the only way it makes sense.

I have got my new horse based where one of those is, and if he can't stay there for any reason then I will be giving up horses for good because the balance of risk and pleasure of riding on roads no longer works for me.

 

[Lexi 123]

Happy hacking doesn’t have a future if you not lucky enough to have private hacking. Also the cost of horses are going to continue to go up people wouldn’t be able to afford and keep horses just for hacking. There is no way farmers are going to allow you do that. I have an uncle who is farmer they don’t want horses tearing up their field. People trash the fields and don’t care .

 

[Sandstone1]

It makes sense to us Sandstone, because we want it. It didn't make sense to anyone who owns or manages the land.

People tried, I mentioned UKChasers earlier. It didn't make financial sense.

There are two long farm rides round here. They charge close to £20 a circuit. That's the only way it makes sense.

I have got my new horse based where one of those is, and if he can't stay there for any reason then I will be giving up horses for good because the balance of risk and pleasure of riding on roads no longer works for me.

Yes and I feel that is why owning a horse for pleasure will soon become a think of the past.

 

[Sandstone1]

Happy hacking doesn’t have a future if you not lucky enough to have private hacking. Also the cost of horses are going to continue to go up people wouldn’t be able to afford and keep horses just for hacking. There is no way farmers are going to allow you do that I have an uncle that a farmer they don’t want horses tearing up their field.

If people treated the land with respect it would not be torn up. There are already some schemes around the country. It would help if riders could stick together on things like this. There would have to be rules obviously.

 

[ycbm]

If people treated the land with respect it would not be torn up. There are already some schemes around the country. It would help if riders could stick together on things like this. There would have to be rules obviously.

But "people" don't, do they? You do. I do. Not everyone does.

The yard I am at has probably 30? cameras watching to see exactly who is behaving badly and/or disrespecting the facilities and people are still caught doing it. Working farms can't cope with that nonsense.

 

[Sandstone1]

But "people" don't, do they? You do. I do. Not everyone does.

The yard I am at has probably 30? cameras watching to see exactly who is behaving badly and/or disrespecting the facilities. Working farms can't cope with that nonsense.

I do understand what you are saying but it does seem such a shame. Roads are getting too dangerous, farmers dont want us on their land. Pretty much no future is there.

 

[Flowerofthefen]

I can understand insurance issues but I am sure there would be a way round it. After all we ride on the roads with massive risks from traffic, loose dogs cyclists etc etc.
Surely a way of getting riders off roads would make sense.
Unless something is done soon I think hacking and owning a horse for the happy hacker will become impossible. That in turn will effect farmers who make hay etc.

The road is a public place. It's up to you to make sure you are insured and your horse is safe to hack in traffic. Farmers do not want the hassle. I live on a farm and know the farmers around us very well. Not one of them will allow me to ride on their land!! Annoying as it is its their land. Hacking will definitely become more difficult. If farmers can't sell hay they just won't make it. They will use the fields for other crops. They don't rely on us to keep them in business as regards to horses. There will always be another scheme they can sign up to to earn their pennies.

 

[Goldenstar]

I thought that might be the case. Before we moved I had permission to ride on about 1000 acres of Peak Park. The problem was that for most of the year most of the gates between fields were shut and many were padlocked because otherwise walkers would leave them open causing problems like letting the rams impregnate their daughters.

So my open access, which was wonderful in theory, was a non starter for practical reasons.

There are some places where open access can work well but what most people really want is circular routes that are way marked and access to places to walk near their homes .
We need to win the battles we can and I think key to that is multiuser tracks and rights of way the presumption should be that all access that is put in should be multi user in most cases .
That means riders need to share and be responsible and accept that means dogs children and bikes will be using the space .

This is off subject but it’s kind of linked the whole wild camping thing in Scotland I drive regularly along a road that’s extremely popular with wild campers you look and think how nice it is over the years it’s got more and more popular now there’s bins everywhere and they overflow and birds drag the rubbish about some of the camper vans look as if they are semi permanent in there positions .
Theres loo paper behind bushes etc etc .
The very thing people enjoyed getting spoiled by people doing it .

 

[ycbm]

.

I do understand what you are saying but it does seem such a shame. Roads are getting too dangerous, farmers dont want us on their land. Pretty much no future is there.

No, I don't think there is. I think the future of hacking anywhere near towns and cities is riding only within vast equestrian centres like the 250 livery yard I'm on, (with another 4 huge barns of daily rental boxes on a dedicated show site), for people who can afford it. Or liveries with a long farm ride.

That, and hacking over hill and dale, only for people who live in remote areas.

It's very sad but we can't increase the pooulation by 20% in 20 years, with a disproportionate percentage of that increase being adult car drivers, and have things stay as they were.

I read recently of an area down south where planning for badly needed new housing is being refused in an area 8 miles around a woodland because the woodland is being "overused" by walkers. If we are now restricting people's right to live near spaces where they can walk, I see no hope for horse riding the way it used to be. Its pretty much gone in Cheshire, which is a very big horse owning area. The council who run Delamere Forest have warnings on the website not to ride at certain times because of the number of other users. Both drag hunts have folded because of the expansion of the road network and the airport. There is a wonderful ring of bridleways provided through Macclesfield forest by United Utilities, but the parking is often full at 8am, so anyone who's not local can't use them.

It's very, very sad. It has changed how I thought my horse owning career would end, that's for sure.
.

 

[Miss_Millie]

I don't know how accurate bridleway maps are in general, but I did refer to one when looking to re-locate and can confirm that all of the bridleways on the map are still accessible and in use. I'm moving from an area with almost no off road hacking to very good off road hacking with multiple bridleways, which I can get onto directly without the need to box up. It was a big factor in my re-location, as I only hack, and was equally fed up with riding on busy roads. Looking at this map, there are still hundreds of bridleways across the country:

https://eventingguide.com/finding-bridleways-england-uk/

Although I appreciate that you would have to ride on the road to access most of them. There are certainly large areas of Wales and Scotland which have miles of off-road hacking, and some areas in England too like the Lake District and Peak District.

Sadly I do think our little island is very overpopulated, and as such we're all competing for a bit of peace and quiet to do our outdoor hobbies. But ultimately horse riding is a privilege and a luxury and I can see why it would be a big hassle for farmers to try and accommodate us.

 

[Goldenstar]

I ride on the roads most days it does not bother me where I live .
I have access to farmland I don’t use it much .
Mostly of it too wet I don’t want to make a mess .
Summer horse flys make it really dangerous and scary cows .
Gates I can’t get on and off easily any more .
So mostly it’s spring when the lambs are bid enough and autumn when I do that.
I load out to hack on some bridleways and use the forestry twenty minutes away which has been closed since storm Arwen and I miss so much .
I also do the beach I am not mad on the beach I grew up there and find it pretty boring .

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

The farmer next door to me doesn't mind you riding around fields but most are so overgrown in summer you can't get through some bits, it's nice when he cuts and we have stubble to ride on though you can go out for ages.

The other farmer won't entertain it though although.

 

[Goldenstar]

Yes and I feel that is why owning a horse for pleasure will soon become a think of the past.

I think you are right the population increases and pressure on land gets worse and worse most people live and work in urban and semi urban areas and they need to keep their horses close by .
Horses will go back to being the preserve of the very rich and those whose live and work in the lightly populated areas of the country .
But it’s grazing where the real pinch point is that’s a much worse issue than hacking .

 

[SEL]

But "people" don't, do they? You do. I do. Not everyone does.

The yard I am at has probably 30? cameras watching to see exactly who is behaving badly and/or disrespecting the facilities and people are still caught doing it. Working farms can't cope with that nonsense.

I dragged my OH down a bridlepath yesterday to see if he could help move a fallen tree. We parked just off the road. There's a house there and the owner was out straight away to speak to us because he's had so many problems with fly tipping just inside the bridlepath (which I know because I've had to report stuff). He has a camera up but because of the fly tipping every gate along there now is pad locked. Farmers don't want the expense of moving rubbish and if it's on their land it's not the council's problem.

I have a lot of sympathy with farmers. In my youth it was standard practice to ride around field margins but it's hard to even access a field these days.

What we can do though is pester councils to keep existing bridleways open. Bucks CC haven't looked at any of the access issues raised with them since 2016 and have blocked off a car park on one route to avoid travellers parking there. I'm more likely to win the lottery than get a decent response from their ROW officer I think

 

[Widgeon]

Tried to do this with several farmers. They have all said they cant/won't let us ride on the margins as they would loose whatever subsidies they get for them.

This is the problem with the farm next door to us. Apparently they lose the subsidies if the inspector sees that horses have been on it. If we want to ride a very particular route I phone and ask, and if the timing's okay we're allowed to sneak round the edge on the tractor tracks. It seems like a real shame to me - surely we want to be incentivising responsible multi-use of our limited land....

 

[cauda equina]

This is the problem with the farm next door to us. Apparently they lose the subsidies if the inspector sees that horses have been on it. If we want to ride a very particular route I phone and ask, and if the timing's okay we're allowed to sneak round the edge on the tractor tracks. It seems like a real shame to me - surely we want to be incentivising responsible multi-use of our limited land....

Exactly
There used to be subsidies for field margins which included permissive access, and have no idea why that no longer happens

 

[Flowerofthefen]

This is the problem with the farm next door to us. Apparently they lose the subsidies if the inspector sees that horses have been on it. If we want to ride a very particular route I phone and ask, and if the timing's okay we're allowed to sneak round the edge on the tractor tracks. It seems like a real shame to me - surely we want to be incentivising responsible multi-use of our limited land....

I do think in some cases it's an easy get out for the farmers. We used to pay a yearly fee to a local livery yard for using a few tracks on their land. We got a card as proof we had paid. That's all stopped now as that particular bit of land has changed hands. We also have a few farmers who don't like us riding on their stubble.

 

[sarcasm_queen]

Would it be nice if we could ride on farmers’ land? Sure. But it’s their private land, they can do what they want. Don’t need to bring insurance/subsidy excuses into it, they can literally just say “nope, it’s mine, stay off”. Which is completely their right.

 

[Widgeon]

Would it be nice if we could ride on farmers’ land? Sure. But it’s their private land, they can do what they want. Don’t need to bring insurance/subsidy excuses into it, they can literally just say “nope, it’s mine, stay off”. Which is completely their right.

Well yes of course, and that is okay - it IS their land and their right - but I find the "subsidy thing" particularly annoying because it effectively removes the decision making from the farmer. Personally I feel it would be preferable to have subsidies that actively encouraged responsible multi use of land, and if some legal protection could be provided for the landowner that would be good too (that would be a huge knotty Other Issue though, I'm not a lawyer and have no idea how such a thing could be done).

 

[Flowerofthefen]

Well yes of course, and that is okay - it IS their land and their right - but I find the "subsidy thing" particularly annoying because it effectively removes the decision making from the farmer. Personally I feel it would be preferable to have subsidies that actively encouraged responsible multi use of land, and if some legal protection could be provided for the landowner that would be good too (that would be a huge knotty Other Issue though, I'm not a lawyer and have no idea how such a thing could be done).

That would work beautifully, covers all bases unfortunately very unlikely to happen isn't it. Who is the body that issues the subsidies etc. Could we write in force to see if there is anything we can do in that respect. Wishful thinking!

 

[whirlwind]

Reading a lot of these feeling very lucky to live where we do! I’m only about 10 miles from Exeter but have direct off road access to Woodbury common from our field and a good local network of bridleways and lanes that link up if we do fancy a road ride for a change. I could technically hack home to ride across the farm as well but I never bother. My partner wouldn’t have anybody else riding across through, there’s sheep everywhere and inevitably someone would leave a gate open

Saying that, there’s a huge difference in access within a mile or 2. I don’t keep my horses at home but bought land a couple of miles away for the better hacking (and sandy soil!)

 

[Carlosmum]

Indeed. Say you rode your horse over a forgotten set of chain harrows in longer grass? Not malicious but negligent if the farmer had said that riders could use that route.

As farmers we have to have public liability insurance just in case anyone on our land ( with permission or not) falls down a rabbit hole

 

[Carlosmum]

Exactly
There used to be subsidies for field margins which included permissive access, and have no idea why that no longer happens

The funding for permissive access was pulled when the Environmental Schemes changed. But the main reason round here that farmers wont allow access is abuse of permission. If you let one person on, apparently you have given permission for everyone.

 

[Tiddlypom]

As farmers we have to have public liability insurance just in case anyone on our land ( with permission or not) falls down a rabbit hole

It must niggle to be liable if a trespasser injures themselves falling down a rabbit hole on your land . If they weren't there trespassing in the first place...

It's not just the money, of course, it's the paperwork and the hassle.

 

[cauda equina]

The funding for permissive access was pulled when the Environmental Schemes changed. But the main reason round here that farmers wont allow access is abuse of permission. If you let one person on, apparently you have given permission for everyone.

Yes the environmental schemes changed but they were brilliant while they lasted, I just wish something similar would be reinstated

 

[Goldenstar]

As farmers we have to have public liability insurance just in case anyone on our land ( with permission or not) falls down a rabbit hole

Yes you do but the more People on horses or otherwise the chances of hassle

It must niggle to be liable if a trespasser injures themselves falling down a rabbit hole on your land . If they weren't there trespassing in the first place...

It's not just the money, of course, it's the paperwork and the hassle.

And if people are there as a right it’s much worse , in case I was talking about earlier the lady killed in front of her family was on a right of way and of course the farmer has to use the right of way to get to the farm it’s on his land it was a terrible lining up of things which ended up in a cow attacking and killing the lady .
Farm’s particularly livestock farms are dangerous places .
Personally I think ROW should be diverted away from farm buildings as a matter of course if farmers request it .Paths and bridleways should be able to be routed to the edges of fields so they can be fenced off with minimal paperwork delay and consultation .
Only the most iconic and historic routes should be exempt from this .

 

[Tiddlypom]

Earlier on today I was listening to the Jeremy Vine R2 show (I know, I know...) and there was a distressing interview with a woman who was very seriously injured by multiple cattle going for her as she, her husband and their on short lead dog crossed farmland on a well trafficked national trail footpath. She did everything right and tried to deal with the cattle in the right way. They had her down on the ground and in the end it was actually the dog who got the cattle to stand back so her husband could rescue her.

She was in hospital for 10 days and took a year to recover.

Here is a link to a group mentioned., and its aims.

1. Cattle to be separated from walkers on footpaths.
2. Compulsory public liability insurance for all farmers who keep livestock.
3. A central database to record all incidents of cattle attacks across England and Wales.

Killer Cows

Keeping our footpaths safe for walkers

killercows.co.uk

Knowing the risks I'd never knowingly cross a field through cattle with or without the dog, or indeed the horse, but there is nothing illegal about having cattle on a field through which there is a public right of way.

 

[minesadouble]

We had a track up the side of one of our fields for the use of our own liveries. We scrapped it because even though it was a private track with no public right of way once people saw riders on it they felt free to bring their own horses on, we also got dog walkers using it too. In the Winter it was an absolute mess.

This was despite the fact people from outside the farm had to come through a gate with a sign on stating 'Private Road - No Access.

We have no track now, and the liveries and my own daughters have to ride up the rode. Charging for use would not have been an option as it would be impossible to police.

People just have zero respect for the property of others unfortunately