Farrier issue

[happyhorse978]

Hi all, just after a bit of friendly advice please as havent really been in this situation before!
I have used my current farrier for quite a few years. My last horse was a TB with not very good feet (typical TB feet) so they were never very good but I did think this was due to his feet. Anyway, I got a new horse in December last year, he had great feet, nice upright heels, balanced, nice angles etc. He only has front shoes on at the moment and he is barefoot behind. The first couple of sets my farrier did on him were great, again nice upright feet, heel support and good angles. However, it seems each time he has the farrier, his feet seem to be changing - now I am no farrier but he is shoeing him very tight, his heels arent as upright as they were, his toes are being left long and I just generally dont like how they are looking. He has good quality feet etc and always has plenty of good quality growth each shoeing.
I think he is shoeing him tight as he has pulled a couple of shoes this summer (only two all summer, so no big deal - I would never ask him to shoe him tight!)

I get on really well with my farrier, hes lovely, great with the horses, reliable, does me favours (comes out for lost shoes on a saturday with short notice etc!) so I really appreciate him being so good and I really dont want to have to change, but I am unsure how to word it to him without insulting him!! I dont want to just leave it as dont want my horses feet ruined, I'd rather change farriers than that. But just not sure 'how' or 'what' exactly to say!

I have photos of the feet following each shoeing so i can see the progression/change. Please be nice - I am just concerned as dont want to cause issues with my horses feet but also don't want to upset my farrier, I just want to be able to chat to him about it but not sure what to say without insulting him. I've never had to do this before.

Any advice would be really appreicated Thank you!!

 

[HelenBack]

Sorry you're in this difficult situation, I've been there myself a couple of times and some farriers are extremely sensitive so I do know how you feel.

One thing I've done in the past that has worked well is if the vet is out for something (hopefully a routine visit rather than something more serious!) I'll ask for their opinion on the feet. Then I'll basically ask can I pass on to the farrier what they've said and any advice on what needs doing differently. Seemingly it goes down better when it comes from a vet than from the client and even if they don't like it they can't say much about it anyway!

If not turning out in over reach boots already could you promise to do so to reduce the risk of further shoes being pulled?

I think if you try to tackle it and things don't improve though, don't be afraid to change to a new farrier. I'm on my third one now since I got my new horse and so far this one seems to know his stuff and is keen to improve my horse's feet, and he's approachable and I can ask him things. The farrier we were originally with did a poor job and had no interest in improving things. He also became grumpy and unreliable. I stuck with him for too long because I'm a bit rubbish with these sorts of situations but I regret not getting rid of him sooner now.

 

[happyhorse978]

Thankyou! My boy goes out in overreach boots everyday, I am just not sure why my farrier would shoe him so tight when he has only pulled two shoes off all year, which i dont think is a big deal personally!?
I might be overthinking, I am just concerned about what to say.

And i totally understand changes have to be made slowly with feet etc but I am seeing changes getting worse slowly, not better! And its stressing me out as i just want to do the best thing for his feet etc. xx

 

[Birker2020]

Thankyou! My boy goes out in overreach boots everyday, I am just not sure why my farrier would shoe him so tight when he has only pulled two shoes off all year, which i dont think is a big deal personally!?
I might be overthinking, I am just concerned about what to say.

And i totally understand changes have to be made slowly with feet etc but I am seeing changes getting worse slowly, not better! And its stressing me out as i just want to do the best thing for his feet etc. xx

Good luck challenging anyone professional! I've been in your situation and they seem to take exception no matter how long you spend trying to come up with the best way of saying it.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I would just say your a bit worried about how his feet have changed and show him the pictures, I find alot of farriers are notorious for not cutting the toe back enough.

Just say you would like the toes shorter as his heels are getting under run, my Arabi has to have very short toes in front or he just doesn't look right, for years we put almost like a natural balance shoe without toe clips, this then enables the farrier to get the toe right back but the wider shoe offers the support.

His barefoot now but he still gets trimed every 2 to 3 weeks as his feet just get too long otherwise.

 

[happyhorse978]

Good luck challenging anyone professional! I've been in your situation and they seem to take exception no matter how long you spend trying to come up with the best way of saying it.

Im getting so worried about it! He is so lovely and we get on so well but I've never had to ask him before so I really dont know how he will take it, I could of course be overthinking but im not very good in these situations!! x

 

[happyhorse978]

I would just say your a bit worried about how his feet have changed and show him the pictures, I find alot of farriers are notorious for not cutting the toe back enough.

Just say you would like the toes shorter as his heels are getting under run, my Arabi has to have very short toes in front or he just doesn't look right, for year we put almost like a natural balance shoe without toe clips, this then enables the farrier to get the toe right back but the wider shoe offers the support.

His barefoot now but he still gets trimed every 2 to 3 weeks as his feet just get too long otherwise.

Thank you so much for the advice!

 

[HelenBack]

Oh you're definitely right to tackle it now, otherwise things will just carry on to get worse. It's just really difficult to basically criticise someone's work isn't it?

I would over think it too, which is why I do things like get the vet to say it! I don't think two pulled shoes is that big a deal either but maybe it's enough to push your farrier into being cautious. Or maybe he just shoes too tight anyway and you just didn't see it as much with your TB. Loads of farriers shoe too tight and don't seem to see it as an issue and then get upset when you say something. It drives me mad!

 

[happyhorse978]

Oh you're definitely right to tackle it now, otherwise things will just carry on to get worse. It's just really difficult to basically criticise someone's work isn't it?

I would over think it too, which is why I do things like get the vet to say it! I don't think two pulled shoes is that big a deal either but maybe it's enough to push your farrier into being cautious. Or maybe he just shoes too tight anyway and you just didn't see it as much with your TB. Loads of farriers shoe too tight and don't seem to see it as an issue and then get upset when you say something. It drives me mad!

Thank you so much! I'll have to try and say something - and if it still carries on i may have to look for another farrier, but hopefully he can sort it. I understand sometimes they need to correct something etc but he had good feet to start off with so I think he has just let the toes go too long over each shoeing and they've got progressively longer! x

 

[SEL]

I've gone with 'the vet suggests' in the past as well.

I think I added 'I'm sure you know all this' at the beginning of the sentence to soften it a bit

I feel your pain. For some reason I find farriers and trimmers particularly sensitive.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Thank you so much for the advice!

I have always kept it light hearted and just be nice about it and I find they are ok, I think it actually helps if you do get on and have known each other a while.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I've gone with 'the vet suggests' in the past as well.

I think I added 'I'm sure you know all this' at the beginning of the sentence to soften it a bit

I feel your pain. For some reason I find farriers and trimmers particularly sensitive.

I've used the vet excuse as well

 

[happyhorse978]

Thank you! I will have to speak to him next time - hes only just been done so not due again just yet - I've got a while yet to stress myself out over it!

 

[Boughtabay]

I would have a discussion with your farrier about what he’s trying to achieve with his shoeing and whether there’s anything in particular he’s trying to correct/change. Then you can discuss your concerns - possibly show him a few pictures of how the feet used to be and ask him if he’s aiming for them to be back like that & if not, why not? These conversations can be direct but keep a light jolly tone to be sensitive to maintaining a good working relationship - it’s your horse you’re allowed to ask questions!

I did have something slightly similar with my farrier although we’re barefoot & we had a chat that lead to me insisting he’s trimmed more often & now that my horse stands quietly (is your horse possibly making it hard for the farrier to do his best work for any reason?) we get great trims and no complaints from either end

ETA maybe jolly isn’t the right word - I just mean sound inquisitive rather than insistent/giving orders … they seem to be more amenable that way

 

[happyhorse978]

I would have a discussion with your farrier about what he’s trying to achieve with his shoeing and whether there’s anything in particular he’s trying to correct/change. Then you can discuss your concerns - possibly show him a few pictures of how the feet used to be and ask him if he’s aiming for them to be back like that & if not, why not? These conversations can be direct but keep a light jolly tone to be sensitive to maintaining a good working relationship - it’s your horse you’re allowed to ask questions!

I did have something slightly similar with my farrier although we’re barefoot & we had a chat that lead to me insisting he’s trimmed more often & now that my horse stands quietly (is your horse possibly making it hard for the farrier to do his best work for any reason?) we get great trims and no complaints from either end

ETA maybe jolly isn’t the right word - I just mean sound inquisitive rather than insistent/giving orders … they seem to be more amenable that way

Thank you for the advice! My horse stands like a rock for the farrier so definitely isnt that, maybe I am overthinking this!!

 

[SantaVera]

Have you tried going barefoot with boots if necessary instead? Going to a barefoot trimmer worked out very well for mine.

 

[happyhorse978]

Have you tried going barefoot with boots if necessary instead? Going to a barefoot trimmer worked out very well for mine.

It is something i could consider in the future, but for now would like to see if i could correct it with farrier first x

 

[SEL]

Thank you for the advice! My horse stands like a rock for the farrier so definitely isnt that, maybe I am overthinking this!!

I don't expect you are. No one ever likes having their work questioned and I've found farriers seem more sensitive than the general population and I have no idea why!

I had a new farrier during the first covid lockdown (he was a conspiracy theorist so was happy to keep trimming / shoeing which was handy because mine really needed doing!). Once lockdown ended I asked the vet for x-rays of my mare's front feet. I let him know I was doing it and he got very tetchy with me. I wasn't doubting his farrier skills she'd just been a little 'off' to my eyes at times. Vet said she needed her toes back per x-ray = lots of huffing and puffing about vets only getting a day at uni on feet whereas he'd done 3 years etc etc.

Now with a different farrier who so far has huffed and puffed a lot less thankfully.

 

[splashgirl45]

If you post pics of the feet on here there are some very knowledgable people (not me) who could tell you if the current shoeing is ok. You need pics from the side so use your phone at floor level and pics of the underside of the foot (clean obviously) and pics of his feet when you felt they were good

 

[Ratface]

I had the same farrier for years. He was "old school" and rather tetchy. If he liked your horse, however awkward it could be, it was fine. " I like a bit of character" - just as well as the ex- working stallion could be a bit "Don't You Know Who I Am?" and fidgety if farrier was in the horse's opinion, too slow. After stallion was pts, he wasn't that keen on new horse, an Egyptian Arabian who was a bit young and had been very poorly treated in his previous home. EA was a bit anxious and farrier wasn't prepared to let him decompress for five minutes. He didn't do him again. I found another farrier who was infinitely patient with him and he's been fine ever since.
Current farrier knows The Orange Loon backwards and has an excellent apprentice working with him. OL is barefoot these days, has very good feet and stands still as a statue. Doesn't need to be tied up, as he's done in his stable. He does tend to dribble down the farriers neck though!

 

[Tarragon]

If you post pics of the feet on here there are some very knowledgable people (not me) who could tell you if the current shoeing is ok. You need pics from the side so use your phone at floor level and pics of the underside of the foot (clean obviously) and pics of his feet when you felt they were good

I also feel that if you can back up your own gut feeling with confidence by making sure you use the correct terms for things and demonstrable knowledge you are less likely to be fobbed off. Getting a second opinion will certainly help you here.

 

[Pedantic]

Not got any ideas on how to handle your farrier, but to avoid pulling shoes off I had my lad in overeach boots 24/7 when he was shod and in work, barefoot now retired

 

[ihatework]

I’d prob get a set of foot balance X-rays done (good practice anyway irrespective) and then get your vet to speak to farrier.
Either there isn’t an issue, then great,
There is and he corrects
There is and he doesn’t = goodbye

 

[MidChristmasCrisis]

Tackle your farrier now…you ll feel bad if you don’t..I’ve just experienced this myself. I had same farrier for ten years and everything great..moved area and had to get a new one. YO “recommended” someone so I signed up with him..for 18 months I said to him how I felt my horses were moving and how they were looking (I’m no expert but have been around a few decades) and all I got was..”she s fine…there’s no problem” and I couldn’t get him engage at all. I moved yards and used the yard owners farrier who immediately said all the things I’d been querying (under run heels developing etc). I could ve cried and my girl is moving so much better again…so I say if you need a different farrier change.

 

[IrishMilo]

I find dealing with most farriers is akin to dealing with blokes in the garage (as a woman). Treat you like a numpty and assume you know nothing . I got sacked off by my old farrier because I asked him to take a bit more toe off. I've given up justifying why I want things done a certain way and just do it myself now (if they're barefoot).

 

[ycbm]

Farriers self-select as people who like to work alone with nobody telling them what to do. It's the job. It does make some of them very difficult to talk to about how they are shoeing your horse if it's going wrong.

I think I know exactly what you're describing - with every successive shoeing his front feet are migrating out in front of the balance point for his legs. It happened to one I bought who had the best feet I'd ever known as an unshod 3 year old. In the end that was one of the two horses that made me give up shoes.

You can try talking to him, and the vet excuse is a good one, but will you ever trust him in future? I think you might be better off trying to find one whose work you like.
.

 

[irishdraft]

I have exactly the same problem with my farrier, I'm slightly concerned about my mares feet but everytime I try to question I get brushed off or he doesn't answer, it's extremely difficult. I know he would not be happy if I used the vet excuse as that's one of his pet hates but at the same time he is a nice young man and is reliable and helpful with lost shoes etc so its very frustrating as you could jump out of the frying pan into the fire.

 

[Goldenstar]

I always get X-rays it’s worth every Penny it just makes the discussion much easier and er often you can get the vet to do it .

 

[paddy555]

long toe running further forward each time, heels getting low and more under run. In the end they become rubbish feet and more and more difficult for a barefoot trimmer to have to start to bring back and improve. What a shame for a horse.

If your farrier is shoeing and allowing this then presumably he believes what he is doing is correct. If that is what he thinks then I cannot see a novice to shoeing owner (not being rude here) is likely to change the mind of what he will regard himself as ie a qualified professional.

He may well see his job to be to keep shoes on because owners moan when they are lost.

Xrays may be more convincing but an owner cannot be expected to babysit a farrier each time a horse is shod and it is expensive to pay for a professional farrier and then to have to pay for a vet to x ray to check his work. .

I'm afraid that I would look for someone else or, if it is only the fronts that are shod, get him some boots and a decent barefoot trimmer to pull the feet back before it is too late
Sorry if this seems a bit blunt.

 

[happyhorse978]

Wow, thank you all for your advice!! It is much appreciated.
I’ve had my instructor look at his feet tonight (I trust her opinion 100%) and along with your helpful advice, I’ve decided I’m going to look for another farrier. I could say something to him, but if he believes that this is the correct way to shoe then my opinion isn’t going to change anything for him. So I think it’s just best for my horse if I find someone else and get the feet back on track before they go too bad. Luckily they’re not terrible yet as ive not left it massively long but going to start looking for another farrier now. Thank you all for your advice. It helps to hear it from like minded people sometimes. Thank you again!