Farrier tantrum, opinions please

Maesfen is correct. It is the owner's job to present a horse trained to accept handling and also a safe suitable environment with competent assistance should the farrier require it. It infuriates me that horse owners think farriers getting knocked about is just part of the job.
 
horsemadmum1 said:
Maesfen is correct. It is the owner's job to present a horse trained to accept handling and also a safe suitable environment with competent assistance should the farrier require it. It infuriates me that horse owners think farriers getting knocked about is just part of the job.
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I agree to a certain extent but horses are unpredictable even when the conditions are perfect and a verbally and/or non-verbally aggressive farrier is not helping himself or the situation. Many years my farrier was killed by a stallion he was shoeing so I'm painfully aware of the importance of providing a safe environment for the horse, handler and farrier.
 
horsemadmum1 said:
Maesfen is correct. It is the owner's job to present a horse trained to accept handling and also a safe suitable environment with competent assistance should the farrier require it. It infuriates me that horse owners think farriers getting knocked about is just part of the job.
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And vets many people think it's ok to expect the vets to handle dangerously badly behaved out on control horses .
 
pansymouse said:
I agree to a certain extent but horses are unpredictable even when the conditions are perfect and a verbally and/or non-verbally aggressive farrier is not helping himself or the situation. Many years my farrier was killed by a stallion he was shoeing so I'm painfully aware of the importance of providing a safe environment for the horse, handler and farrier.
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The FRC state these conditions as part of the owners responsibilities to the farrier. To quote the client must "understand that certain methods of control may be required to preserve life, health and safety and that the farrier has the right to decline to shoe a horse, or to discontinue shoeing, if it is felt to proceed would compromise his or her own health and safety, that of others, or that of the horse". Shouting and aggressive behaviour should be avoided by all parties.
 
I would not use the farrier again personally, if for no other reason than I suspect the horse will be worse for him next time.

I do have a lot more sympathy for bad-tempered farriers since I started trimming my own horses, even with a hoof stand it is hard work on the back and temper - especially when you have them in the perfect position and they decide to walk off! I agree that the OP should probably have addressed the ongoing problem with this horse, it isn't right that it is still stressed about shoeing after so many years. I also think if a horse is known to need longer to shoe due to handling or physical issues (i.e. needs longer rests due to arthritis) the farrier should be paid for the additional time.

Still, he should have refused to shoe her that day, or even left the stable to kick something if he couldn't hold onto his temper. Ranting at OP and getting aggressive with a horse he knew was already bad with men is not acceptable.

I've only ever had one farrier I completely trusted, he was into meditation which probably helped! I never knew anything cause him to lose his cool.
 
YorksG said:
While the behaviour of the farrier in the OP is unnacceptable, I would wonder what his version is. While our horses have occasinaly caught farriers, it should not be the norm for horses to bruise any one who deals with them and I would have thought that the owner would apologise proffusely if it happens, not just say that it is part of the job.
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I agree with this ^^^^^^
For a farrier to stomp off and be prepared to leave the job half done is very unprofessional and unacceptable.
Youve used this farrier for a few years and now some time has elapsed since the visit i would call to speak to him about the incident to see what the issue was and if there is any chance of a reccurance, whether i changed farriers would depend on the
Outcome of the conversation
 
Is it just me that thinks the farrier's request to shoe in the stable is bizarre? I've never heard of this, in undercover barns or tie-ups yes, but in a stable...seems like it's just asking for an accident. If the weather was too horrible to shoe outside and there was no undercover area available then the farrier would just cancel (actually, they'd just not show up, but that's another issue entirely!).

Agree that the owner has a responsibility to make sure that horse's behaviour is safe, but on the other hand it may be that if they had followed the usual routine and he hadn't walked into her stable and allegedly grabbed a hind leg then it would have been. Also ditto everyone who says that the farrier should have just refused to shoe if he felt unsafe. I have a horse who can be extremely difficult on an off day - my trimmer and I decide between us on a visit day if it's safe to give him a trim or not.
 
It is the owner's responsibility to ensure that their horses are well trained and safe to handle. However, I'm not sure how one would solve a problem with a horse accepting the farrier unless the farrier himself deals with the horse in a firm, patient and professional manner. The OP has stated that this farrier is normally good with this particular horse. The horse has had a bad start in life - we all know that once horses have had a bad experience they do not easily forget and it can take years and a lot of work to overcome it. It sounds to me like this farrier was having a bad day and took it out on the horse/owner as he was anticipating difficult behaviour, when he would normally have kept his head.

IMO if the farrier feels that this horse is causing him a problem he should have spoken to the OP in a calm and professional manner and worked out some sort of resolution, whether that be further training or withdrawing his services. He should not have just exploded and threatened to leave the horse's shoes unclenched. Childish and unprofessional behaviour from him and I would personally be hesitant to use his services in the future without and apology/explanation.
 
Possum said:
Is it just me that thinks the farrier's request to shoe in the stable is bizarre? I've never heard of this, in undercover barns or tie-ups yes, but in a stable...seems like it's just asking for an accident. If the weather was too horrible to shoe outside and there was no undercover area available then the farrier would just cancel (actually, they'd just not show up, but that's another issue entirely!).

Agree that the owner has a responsibility to make sure that horse's behaviour is safe, but on the other hand it may be that if they had followed the usual routine and he hadn't walked into her stable and allegedly grabbed a hind leg then it would have been. Also ditto everyone who says that the farrier should have just refused to shoe if he felt unsafe. I have a horse who can be extremely difficult on an off day - my trimmer and I decide between us on a visit day if it's safe to give him a trim or not.
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I'm sorry, but it was always the 'done thing' to shoe in a stable unless it was hot shoeing; years ago, nobody except at their own forge would hot shoe at all so I see nothing unusual in it at all. All of mine are trimmed inside their stable, I like youngsters confined, it's far safer but the time before their first shoeing is done outside to prepare them for the next time when it's done properly. It's always 'exciting' for the first time when they are shod (hot) outside but I still expect mine to stand where they're told and not misbehave; I cover their eye when the shoe is first shown the hoof so that the smoke doesn't worry them but by the last hoof I usually can even stop this. It all comes down to preparation to make the crossover from just trims to proper shoeing as easy as possible for both the farrier and the horse.

I do find it very hard to accept that some think it's perfectly OK for the farrier to have to work outside in all weathers without providing shelter of some form or other whether it's piddling wet or too hot; it's only fair to always have that provision for them, after all, it happens regularly, why wouldn't you set up something for them to show your appreciation; you wouldn't expect to not have somewhere to hold a horse for a vet to examine something; why should a farrier be any different?
We've always found that if you treat your farriers and vets as you would like to be treated yourself and not ask them to do something in situations you yourself would not tolerate, then they'll always go the extra mile for you willingly. The way some talk and expect their farrier or vet to handle their stroppy horses for them I wouldn't even go on their yards I'm afraid.
 
Clare85 said:
It is the owner's responsibility to ensure that their horses are well trained and safe to handle. However, I'm not sure how one would solve a problem with a horse accepting the farrier unless the farrier himself deals with the horse in a firm, patient and professional manner. The OP has stated that this farrier is normally good with this particular horse. The horse has had a bad start in life - we all know that once horses have had a bad experience they do not easily forget and it can take years and a lot of work to overcome it. It sounds to me like this farrier was having a bad day and took it out on the horse/owner as he was anticipating difficult behaviour, when he would normally have kept his head.

IMO if the farrier feels that this horse is causing him a problem he should have spoken to the OP in a calm and professional manner and worked out some sort of resolution, whether that be further training or withdrawing his services. He should not have just exploded and threatened to leave the horse's shoes unclenched. Childish and unprofessional behaviour from him and I would personally be hesitant to use his services in the future without and apology/explanation.
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Totally agree with this, and I think quite a few people are wrong in having a go at the OP about the horse's behaviour, clearly without reading that the farrier isn't unknown to the horse, and the horse has a long history. My friend had a horse which was terrified of men and would be less than friendly to any who tried to go in her stable. A female always had to be around to bring her out for the farrier. Once she was in a headcollar she was fine and perfectly good to shoe. The reason she hated men so much was that she had spent her life as a brood mare and clearly hadn't been handled very well to put it mildly. In her mind all men were horrible and you can't blame her for thinking like that. She was a nice mare, perfectly good and nice natured. I've known dogs be exactly the same with men because they had been taunted, goaded and treated cruelly by one or more men. Not the animals fault. The best you can do with such severely affected animals is to be consistent and on this occasion the farrier wasn't. All of us who have had a mare know that if you get their backs up, you aren't going to beat them into submission. My own mare who was so soft to shoe that she didn't actually need to be tied up was punched in the chops by the farrier simply for sniffing his back while he was bent over. Totally uncalled for and it undid a lot of work I'd put in on her chronic headshyness.
 
Maesfen said:
I do find it very hard to accept that some think it's perfectly OK for the farrier to have to work outside in all weathers without providing shelter of some form or other whether it's piddling wet or too hot; it's only fair to always have that provision for them, after all, it happens regularly, why wouldn't you set up something for them to show your appreciation; you wouldn't expect to not have somewhere to hold a horse for a vet to examine something; why should a farrier be any different? .
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We don't all have those types of facilities for our farriers or vets, despite regular visits from both. It may be 'only fair' to provide such luxuries as stables and even flat ground, but for some of us the reality is standing atop a windy hill praying it won't rain. And being very accommodating about rearranging when it is.
 
Even perfectly well behaved ones can have the odd day off and act up. Bit like my computer at work, it sometimes doesn't do something I expect it to do but would I have a rant about it? No, just shut it down and restart. He could have left the horse for another day when it wasn't snowing.
 
Blurr said:
We don't all have those types of facilities for our farriers or vets, despite regular visits from both. It may be 'only fair' to provide such luxuries as stables and even flat ground, but for some of us the reality is standing atop a windy hill praying it won't rain. And being very accommodating about rearranging when it is.
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But that's my point exactly!
You know you will have the farrier about eight times a year, maybe even more. Surely it must be worth sorting something out, it's not like it's a once a year job after all. It's not beyond anyone to find a way of making some shelter for them and the horse whether that be panels, sheeting, an umbrella or even a gazebo, somewhere they can get out of the wind, rain or even sun. It doesn't have to be fancy or permanent, it just has to be practical and one you have trained your horse to behave in/around and that way you won't have any messed up appointments as there won't be an excuse not to do the job other than illness or death.
 
I have a fantastic farrier that I trust and rely on but he does expect my horses to be well prepared for him. If I have a new horse he rightly expects me to have spent time picking feet up and making sure the horse is comfortable with having its legs handled. If the horse is difficult he is more than happy to help out with the training and has plenty of patience but I don't think he would be very impressed if I wasn't prepared to at least try to get the horse more accepting of a farrier. He has never and I am sure would never raise his voice at me or the horses to be honest and I have had a few youngsters that have taken time and patience to be where they are now. I know if I am unable to be home when he is due I have no problem leaving the horses in the small paddock for him and he just gets on with it and even opens the gates when he has finished to the other fields. Not sure OP how long you gave used this farrier but I really think it's important for there to be a trust with your farrier and if you don't think there can be with this farrier then perhaps it is time to move on.
 
Maesfen said:
But that's my point exactly!
You know you will have the farrier about eight times a year, maybe even more. Surely it must be worth sorting something out, it's not like it's a once a year job after all. It's not beyond anyone to find a way of making some shelter for them and the horse whether that be panels, sheeting, an umbrella or even a gazebo, somewhere they can get out of the wind, rain or even sun. It doesn't have to be fancy or permanent, it just has to be practical and one you have trained your horse to behave in/around and that way you won't have any messed up appointments as there won't be an excuse not to do the job other than illness or death.
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But it's an outdoor job?! When I worked as a RI only very few of my clients had indoor schools, and most still wanted their lesson if it was rainy or windy. It never occurred to me to think that since it wasn't a 'one off' that they should be trying to make a shelter for me - if they were happy to be outside and riding then I would stand outside and teach them.

I don't see why farriery is any different. I can understand if its properly hammering down, but thats a fairly rare occurrence. The owner's responsibility is to make sure that the horse is in a fit state to shoe, with feet as clean as possible and well behaved. And I stand by my comment that shoeing in a normal sized stable is an unnecessary risk in most cases, you're trapped against a wall if anything goes wrong.

OP - I hope your horse hasn't suffered any setbacks from the incident.
 
Mine get shod in their stable when the weather is bad, our barn only really has space outside the stables for one of my horses (she's smaller and although fairly hot headed, stands stock still when asked, the others less so!). My new lady is 3, hot shod for the first time in summer (previously trimmed) but difficult to pick feet up with due to balance.

I would never imagine that my farrier, no matter how saintly, would agree to train my horse to stand on 3 legs while he shoes without my prior hard work to give them both the best chance to successfully get that metal on her feet.

Equally, if my farrier had behaved like yours, I'd be cancelling and reporting him, apology or not. He obviously has a short fuse and anyone that behaves like that should not be around horses, especially not nervous horses.
 
Whilst I agree that the horse should have manners its not a robot and a movement of head or body is not unacceptable to me.... farriers know the job when they start with live animals.

I do think op you need to try and get proactive with your mare with regards to shoeing if this is a regular occurance and shes not comfortable with the procedure enough to be safe but personally I totally think the farrier is wrong and I would not have him back. It is never acceptable for anyone to strike or prod or poke my horse....why? because it causes more stress than its worth !

More important if a man stood ranting at me as you describe he'd have been nailed to the floor !!
 
Possum said:
But it's an outdoor job?! When I worked as a RI only very few of my clients had indoor schools, and most still wanted their lesson if it was rainy or windy. It never occurred to me to think that since it wasn't a 'one off' that they should be trying to make a shelter for me - if they were happy to be outside and riding then I would stand outside and teach them.

I don't see why farriery is any different. I can understand if its properly hammering down, but thats a fairly rare occurrence. The owner's responsibility is to make sure that the horse is in a fit state to shoe, with feet as clean as possible and well behaved. And I stand by my comment that shoeing in a normal sized stable is an unnecessary risk in most cases, you're trapped against a wall if anything goes wrong.

OP - I hope your horse hasn't suffered any setbacks from the incident.
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Farriers registration council include clients responsibility to the farrier include a clean dry standing with good light and a non slip surface. The list can be seen here:
http://www.farrier-reg.gov.uk/horse-owners/clients-responsibilities-to-the-farrier/
 
It might be a blessing in disguise. My farrier got cross with me a few years ago over one of my particularly sensitive geldings, who caught him at the end of a rough day.

He lost it with me, rather than the horse, but basically said until I could teach my horse the manners to stand at least half decently for shoeing, he was sacking me as a client (he is a family friend as well as my farrier.) He told me to come with him for a day and get some perspective - 10 horses later and I could appreciate that it is a very physically straining job, which requires owners to do the best by their horses.

After his outburst I had my dad mess about with my horse's feet every day for 6weeks - starting at a few minutes and ending at an hour - it wasn't fun, but it worked - I got a better horse and a happier farrier out of what was essentially a temper tantrum over a bad day doing a hard job.

I have tremendous respect for the man, and even when I moved away, he was there to recommend the best people for the job.
 
Totally unacceptable even if he was having a bad day he should have apologised and said something along the lines of " not having a good day today etc " and then you could have accepted this. My pony doesn't have shoes but when he sees the farrier he is in the field shelter as he lives out 24/7 so no stables and not everyone has field shelters in some circumstances so what are they supposed to do?

If on all other counts he is a good farrier I would give him the benefit of the doubt and see what happens next time. The shame of it all is that it has probably set your poor horse back now with behaving and trusting the farrier which would be the fact that would annoy me more !
 
Maesfen said:
But that's my point exactly!
You know you will have the farrier about eight times a year, maybe even more. Surely it must be worth sorting something out, it's not like it's a once a year job after all. It's not beyond anyone to find a way of making some shelter for them and the horse whether that be panels, sheeting, an umbrella or even a gazebo, somewhere they can get out of the wind, rain or even sun. It doesn't have to be fancy or permanent, it just has to be practical and one you have trained your horse to behave in/around and that way you won't have any messed up appointments as there won't be an excuse not to do the job other than illness or death.
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I'm on top of a windy hill with no natural shelter and you think I should use an umbrella or erect a gazebo. How would adding flying objects into the mix help?
 
Blurr said:
I'm on top of a windy hill with no natural shelter and you think I should use an umbrella or erect a gazebo. How would adding flying objects into the mix help?
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I think it falls down to how much you respect your farrier tbh- I wouldn't expect mind to shoe horses outside on a windy hill.
 
I've been on yards with no shelter other than stables and I have also known farriers who would rather shoe outside even in foul weather than in an enclosed space.

However, if they wished not to shoe for any reason, I would always respect their decision. Better that than injury to farrier or horse.

Presumably Blurr's farrier knows his/her set up and can make the decision as to what is acceptable. However, as good farriers are worth their weight in gold, I would always do whatever I could to make it as pleasant as possible for them.
 
I had a Rehab livery in for some work. The owner wanted her own farrier to shoe so I called him. He started to shoe the horse ,which was a nervous girl, and she shied away from him. He picked up his hammer and hit her in the ribs. I allowed him to finish shoeing the mare paid him and told him to get out of my yard and never come back. he made some excuse about his action but my reply was the same. I never have anyone hit or punch any horse in my yard.

The owner of the mare contacted the farrier and sacked him. I had my own farrier come to shoe her next time and he took time and was patient with her. She became relaxed and was a good girl.

There is no need to be rough or impatient with a horse. It may take time but the horse will be much better for it.

I would ask him to justify his actions and if you are not happy then get another farrier.
 
RunToEarth said:
I think it falls down to how much you respect your farrier tbh- I wouldn't expect mind to shoe horses outside on a windy hill.
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Respect? Are you sure that's what you mean? I respect my farrier. Unfortunately, no amount of respecting him will conjure up stables.

Given that there is no possibility of installing a shelter my only option would be to not use the services of a farrier. I'm not saying that would not work because I did have one horse who could not be trimmed for 6 years, but his feet did look a mess and I do think it's good to have a professional look after your horse's feet.

Usually, only one visit a year is marred by bad weather, we do tend to fall lucky.
 
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