Farriers - firm handling or violence - where's the line?

Achinghips

Achinghips

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Following on from a previous post, this is my experience, which I've copied and pasted from another thread as I don't want to detract from someone asking for help:

I had a farrier once who kicked my horse in the belly with steel toe capped boots, because he reared and put his ears back. The horse bolted out through the stable and impaled himself on a nail from the broken door. I since watched a farrier very carefully and thankfully found a good and well mannered one on my second attempt and have stuck with him, though obviously his job was made more difficult by the antics of the first.


Has anyone else had this kind of experience? Is it commonplace or was I just unlucky?
 
I have. My horse is quite stiff behind. Farrier knew this, he'd been shoeing her for 18 months. He asked her to lift her dodgy leg too high, and she pulled her leg away. She didn't kick out, but in moving her leg, she ripped a hole in his new chaps. He screamed at her, hit her twice with a rasp and once with a hammer, directly across her spine. She still has scars. He finished quickly and left (with my 17 year old self in stunned silence and tears!). He hasn't been back since.

Luckily I found a very patient farrier who took some time to get to know her. She still spent a while rearing every time the hammer moved, but now (13 years later), is back to being good to shoe. I still warn any new farrier what she's like, and our current farrier is great with her.
 
I don't know the full story but if your horse reared up then a farrier is extremely vulnerable and can understand them reacting to it in an attempt to prevent them doing it again and potentially killing them.

My farriers are excellent, have all the time and patience in the world but we always give them well mannered horses to shoe so they're safe.

Efited to add there is a fine line between firm handling and violence and I don't advocate beating a horse etc
 
my farrier wouldn't dream of doing anything like that.

if the horse is being a prat he steps out of the way while i sort out any bad behaviour and then gets back to his job.

it is not the farrier's place to reprimand your horse, but you do need to make sure your horse is well mannered to have its feet done.

if my horse has reared and put its ears back, i think i would have got in there before the farrier!

my farrier has done plenty of mine from foals so they aren't always golden to handle but he has never raised his hand to any of them.

i won't let another farrier who works for him shoe mine anymore as he was rather rough- didn't hit them but lots of shouting and shaking their headcollars etc.
i rang my farrier straight afterwards and said i would like only him to come out and do my lot- never been an issue.
 
Yes, I was about that age too, and my dad who was present knew nothing about horses so assumed that was what they did, I think.
Btw, Megabeast - it was a little nap really, no more then 4 inches off the ground. I remember it vividly.
Wish I knew then what I know now, I'd have sued the bugger.
 
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Btw, Megabeast - it was a little nap really, no more then 4 inches off the ground. I remember it vividly.


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Ah, I was assuming a full height rear from what you said
 
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Btw, Megabeast - it was a little nap really, no more then 4 inches off the ground. I remember it vividly.


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Ah, I was assuming a full height rear from what you said

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Mmmm... no, it probably was about 2 inches of a nap (not a fear nap, more an attitude one, though) I was only about 15 or 17, can't quite remember (25 years ago) and rather shy - so didn't get in there first, due to the underconfidence that went with my youth at the time. It was the first time the horse had been shod since I'd had him.
 
I've had a farrier belt my (old) horse with a rasp in the past when it was pi55ing about - hard enough to leave a welt for a couple of hours. TBH I didn't respect his shoeing anyway so changed to someone else, as I had been planning to before the incident.

I now have a farrier that I completely trust. My mare is very good to be shod but should she put him in any danger, I would support him if he had to defend himself or reprimand her. I can say that because I know his actions would be proportionate and not out of temper, and it's my job to make sure the horse behaves in the first place.
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No, mine will have a firm word, but will never hit my horses with anything other than his hand. If they are being very naughty, he will ask you to twitch just to get the job finished, and will recommend sedalin next time. He is fantastic with them, and I trust him 100%. However, I have had a farrier who was horrid to my old boy for no real reason, other than he was a bit scared of him I think. I didnt find it acceptable, and changed farriers as a result.
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I've been unfortunate enough to encounter two bad farriers.

The first was in Canada, shoeing a 4 year old who was already 17hh, very ungainly and found it hard to balance himself on three legs for long periods. This lady took two hours to shoe each horse and by the end he started to fidget and lose his balance, he whipped his hoof out of her hand and stomped it down and she lost it. Smacked him as hard as she could in the belly with a rasp and then picked up her tool kit and threw it across the cross tie bay so it hit the wall in front of his face, scaring the life out of him. She then stormed off and didnt come back for another 10 mins, leaving me to calm to poor horse, who was shaking like a leaf. I couldn't believe it.

The other was a farrier in California, at a very top end show. My charge lost a shoe and so I took him to this guy. Ziggy didn't know how to trot up (new over from Europe and never been taught) so again, he got a massive wallop on the backside, causing him to bolt with me getting dragged. I then tried to calm Ziggy, who I dont think had ever been smacked in his life as he was such a lovely soul and the farrier proceeded to scream at me that i was a "stupid f***ing english groom" and that maybe I could do with the same treatment as the beating the horse just got. Again, i was staggered, what I had done wrong other than calm a startled horse I have no idea. I later found that he beat his wife, kids and dogs on a regular basis. Unbelievably, even though my boss witness the whole thing (and said nothing, coward), he still continued to use the same guy.

Thankfully my farrier now, and the ones I encountered working in NZ were all fabulous, even when dealing with very awkward horses.
 
Rana!!!
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OMG!!! You didn't report him???

It's a difficult one this imo. The thing is if a horse is unhappy to have it's feet done for whatever reason then someone hitting it with rasps, hammers or shouting and being gennerally aggressive is only imo going to make the horse associate having feet done with pain and fear so how will this help it improve and learn to be calm??? I do think it's the owners responsibility foremost to train a horse to be happy to have feet done but it is so easy for a horses fear or resistance to escalate to the point of it being dangerous by beating and bashing it.
Farriers are very busy and rushed people and I can understand how the minority 'loose it' when tired, aching and dealing with difficult horse after difficult horse but no way do I condone this.
 
I've heard some horror stories over the years, my farrier is very good, and my cob is very good to trim (and shoe, when he was still shod) although he is rather lazy, and a bit stiff behind, so no issues. Our homebred filly is rather more opinionated, and will try it on, she reacts very well to a verbal response from me or the farrier - her mother was just the same - a growl, an 'Oi, pack it in!' seems to pretty much do the trick!
 
i have seen a farrier hit a horse between the eyes with a hammer for being aukward (not my horse i hasten to add or he would have had the hammer stuffed where the sun doesnt shine)
i had a farrier out to my big lad when he was a 2yo, he was really rough with him shaking his headcollar, lots of shouting, hitting him, he frightened him so badly he ran out of the shoeing area and took the doorframe with him he has been difficult to do since, my new farrier is brilliant with him, if hes getting wound up he lets him have a rest, then starts again once he is settled
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He screamed at her, hit her twice with a rasp and once with a hammer, directly across her spine. She still has scars.

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OMG
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That is terrible!!
Im shocked a farrier would go that far
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My farrier is my OH and he is fab (not just saying that because hes my OH, he knows too well if i didnt like the way he shod my horse i wouldnt let him do it, id rather pay a farrier i thought was better
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He is very patient, ive only known him to smack a horse once, and the horse bolted out of the stable when he open the door, shuved him into a metal feed holder then tryed to kick him!! (just because he had to stay in the stable till 10 oclock for the farrier
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) He never used any tools though, just a smack on the neck!! And to be honest, if that was my horse he would have got more then a smacked neck, rude bugger!

For me, as soon as the farrier starts using tools to whack a horse, the line has been crossed! x
 
I had a farrier really wallop a liveries horse with his rasp, leaving a welt, when the mare was actually being pretty good and had a slight fidget. He really lost his temper and I told the livery that night (she wasnt there for the shoeing) that I was disgusted at his temper.
She didnt change farriers but I refused to have him on the yard again so she either used a different farrier (ours was a total saint) or had to take the horse to another yard to be shod.

I really dont mind a farrier giving a horse a wallop for being stupid or telling the owner to sort the horse out, but over the top violence is unnesscary
 
When I got my arab back from loan (after I'd had my son) he would shake head to toe with the farrier. He has always been good to shoe and is not a nervy horse so I hate to think what had happened to him.

I love my UKNHCP timmers, they are very proud of my horse's feet and actually like horses
 
Thankfully my farrier doesn't do any of this! The odd growl and a push/shove if they're naughty to put them back into place.

Once, my Shettie (the naughty one in my banner) laid down when the farrier was trying to trim his feet, and refused to get up. So the farrier suggested rolling him onto his back and he'd do him upside down!!

Shettie obvously thought he'd won this battle, but jumped straight up when he realised he hadn't!

He's never tried that one since, though he still tries the hop away on 3 legs scenario - even after 19yrs of me trying to educate him on his manners!! - it's his sense of humour, he needs a laugh it seems!

My farrier is really patient with him - just holds on. I'm the other side with my knee in him holding as still as possible (Shettie not farrier!).

I've had the same chap for 22yrs - feel very lucky after reading all your reports.
 
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For me, as soon as the farrier starts using tools to whack a horse, the line has been crossed! x

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Agree with this.

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me too - and steel toe capped boots in a sudden unpredictable kick to the soft underbelly, with no attempt at verbal reprimands first. I also remember he took a good few steps back first to get real force into the kick, appalling, when I look back.
 
My farrier is firm but fair, he's patient and understanding of youngsters, but once a horse knows to stand and behave and is not frightened and is just taking the mick, or kicks out (as in done in sheer naughtyness) then yes the horse will get whats for (as in a whack and shouted at but nothing more than what I'd do) and quite rightly so, its a dangerous job and horses should be tought not to mess about and get away with bad manners etc but there is fine line I agree...and this is coming from me..who is soft!
 
My farrier was injured and my boy had a stifle problem which I told the new farrier about and said that you couldnt pull his hinds to hard or rest them on a stand, he didnt listen and when my poor boy found it hard and started fidgeted, he smacked him really hard!!! I never let him near my horse again.

My new mare is a pain in the butt with her hinds at times she gets board, and if she is the only one in she gets very annoying and last time I shouted at her, he just tells me to get some carrots to distract her, he is so kind even though she tried to pick him up by his balls last time x
 
QR, no, I didn't report it. I had no idea you could! (Obviously I do now, but 13 years ago, with limited internet, it was harder to find things out lol) I did ask my Dad to look into it for me (as I said, I was only 17), but he's not confrontational at all, and wouldn't do it. He just said to change farriers, which is what I did. Hindsight is wonderful though, and I really wish I had reported it.

Farrier is still shoeing locally, looks shifty if he ever sees me, and I've heard some "interesting" stories about other horses he's shod, and a livery yard he's associated with. I just keep my head down and keep out of it.

My last farrier would slap my horse, or give her leadrope a quick shake, or growl at her. But if she needed any more than a quick "Giddup you old bag", he would ask me to give her a whack, which I was happy to do. Current farrier doesn't even do that - but he's extra extra patient! In fact, she gave a tiny rear a couple of months ago, because she lost her balance, and he apologised to her and gave her a pat
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I do wonder if some farriers need "horsemanship" training as well as technical training - so they can really tell the difference between a horse which is being naughty, and a horse which is scared, or lost balance etc.

For me, the line is anything beyond a slap/quick elbow in the ribs. Kicking, repeated hitting, anything round the horses head, using tools etc, are all way beyond what I would expect a farrier to do.
 
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I love my UKNHCP timmers, they are very proud of my horse's feet and actually like horses

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Couldn't have put it better myself!
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For me, as soon as the farrier starts using tools to whack a horse, the line has been crossed! x

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Agree with this.

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Me too!!!!

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When I got my arab back from loan (after I'd had my son) he would shake head to toe with the farrier. He has always been good to shoe and is not a nervy horse so I hate to think what had happened to him.


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This is the thing isn't it... how will shouting and hitting a horse make it calm???In my opinion it just makes horse scared and when they get really scared they either run, freeze or if pushed enough attack! Horses can't read our minds, they don't know they have to wait in for the farrier etc. they just know they're away from their mates or someting is different and for some this is stressful so being already worried an aggressive Fariier isn't exactly going to make a horse feel safe enough to relax.
Feet are horses very important way to 'save' themselves ie. they run from danger they are not programmed to attack imo but run so for me a horse needs to feel safe to give it's foot. After all in his eyes his life may depend on it. Horses don't see the world the way we do and I don't think they can rationalise like we can, you know we know a little pain is sometimes necessary for an injection etc. but I personally don't think horses think like that.

I feel we have to try and help the horse feel comfortable about giving his feet and really show our appreciation when they do, not beat em up for being frightened.

I might be an odd bod as I don't see horse as being awkward either really, I see them as not understanding what we want, being afraid or even inadvertantly trained to behave 'bad' or not trained to understand/do as we ask.

I try and see it a bit like when I'm having a bad day or phase... lots of little things gradually build up in me...
 
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He just said to change farriers, which is what I did. Hindsight is wonderful though, and I really wish I had reported it.


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Oh so true!! Especially when you're young and not worldly wise or have the confidence.
This is the trouble I think people get away with behaving like this so somehow it becomes accepted.
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A farrier hit and old horse of mine with a hammer. The horse could be difficult but wasnt on this occasion. I told him to leave and the horse remaimed unshod for 2 weeks till i found another farrier
 
It was interesting watching my farrier with his apprentice this morning actually. The apprentice is at the stage where he is rasping and "finishing off" feet and my mare is a bit of a fidgety cow bag, but as my farrier said, doesnt do anything wrong, just fidgets!

The apprentice was getting annoyed as she wouldn't keep her foot on the stand, but my farrier quickly spotted this and asked the apprentice to take a step back and look at why she wasn't keeping her foot on the stand, and how he could position her better to stop her from fidgeting
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Was really nice to see/hear actually, and I think a lot of farriers would benefit from being with a horseman for while
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My horse had a farrier that hit and shouted at him when he thought no one was around. It was only that a fellow livery was mucking out a stable in the vicinity that she heard it happen. My horse used to grab his water bucket and pull it over in the stable only whenever the farrier had visited him. The stable used to get flooded out on these occassions. I never twigged on why he was doing this, until my friend told me what the farrier had allegedly done, and then I realised my horse must have been in a pretty distressed state to have pulled over his water bucket. Obviously I changed my farrier as soon as I felt out, although I did not confront him about it.

I now have a fantastic farrier. He spends ages shoeing my horse and is firm but fair. He understands my horse has spavin and is stiff at times.
 
There is a farrier around here that carries (or certainly used to) a piece of blue plastic water pipe in his van specifically to 'sort' out problem horses !!!!!!!!!!
 
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