Farriers - firm handling or violence - where's the line?

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but we always give them well mannered horses to shoe so they're safe.

So ....the not so well mannered are not shod then??

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Don't actually have any that aren't on the yard! It's very difficult to say what I actually mean without people misinterpreting things when it's just in writing but there are some people whose horses don't have good manners and are allowed to barge and get away with pushing boundaries and these are the ones that farriers must hate shoeing. Not that this in turn allows abuse of course.

However it depends whether the horse is misbehaving out of ignorance, fear or sheer bad manners. If it's fear then speaking sternly to them or giving them a slap isn't going to help the situation.

As someone said although a lot of farriers are excellent with horses (and I can't speak highly enough of ours) some aren't and it would be a good idea if they were taught horsemanship skills so they would know if they're dealing with a genuinely frightened horse or one that's being naughty
 
I have to say I cannot fault my farrier. I remember once he was shoeing her in the smithy and I was mucking out, my mare panicked because she was tied up and pulled back and got away, and bless him my farrier stood with her for a minute, calmed her down and instead of typing her up again just asked his son to hold her. I trust him 100%
However he can be firm if we have a bit of a sod of a pony, or foal in this case. It was a very cocky colt who had done "feet training" quite literally since the day he was born. Over friendly type foal with no fear and an attitude to boot! Farrier gave him a very good wallop one day after said colt played up. Colt stood like a rock for the rest of it
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Sometimes a farrier needs to be firm and give a horse a good wallop, however it depends on the horse. Of he had walloped my mare when she pulled back she would of well and truly [****] herself but if he had just stood and wispered sweet nothings to the colt, the colt would of taken the piss even more.
However, some of you on here have witnessed farriers take it too far, a mark should never be left on a horse and they should never be hit with rasps etc..
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As i mentioned on the other thread, One of my farriers punched my horse full force in the head when he stomped his foot down. He punched him so hard that my poor boys head snapped up and to the side (It was a full on punch)

Stupidly both my mum and I just stood there in stunned silence with tears running down. I was only about 16/17years, so never said anything. We just never used him again!

Edited to mention that the farrier found it highly amusing about how hard he had punched him
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My farrier now is just wonderful
 
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There is a farrier around here that carries (or certainly used to) a piece of blue plastic water pipe in his van specifically to 'sort' out problem horses !!!!!!!!!!

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Yep, and that I would happily agree with! A lot of very well respected horse people I know use this tool, it makes a lot of noise but doesn't hurt them. very useful in some cases
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we have a horse on our yard that literally trys to kill the farrier not mine i might add. the farrier asked the owners to hold him which they declined so another livery had to the farrier was very annoyed but still didn't hit him just shouted oi at which he got told off for doing the owners wont discipline this horse by shouting or anything. unfortunatly they have got a foal which is now going down the same root
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I bought a tb mare years ago that was not good for the farrier at all. I had no problems sorting her feet out on a daily basis, but when it came to the farrier handleing her she was dangerous.

We used to have to have her shod in 2 sessions, the fronts one session and the backs another. I was only young at the time (15) and my farrier told me my mare was scared and needed to be given loads of positive enforcement if she messed about.

we did try a chifney and a twitch to try and keep her standing still, but none of there worked, just made her worse.

It didint make real sense to me, and over the space of a year that he shod her, she never got any better. She woudl cow kick him, rear up at his and strike out at him with her legs, would try and bite him. She was just a really pig about having her feet done. the farrier never so much as ever raised his voice at her, and whenever she misbehaved he backed off and woudl give her a few min to chill, telling me to feed her polos, ect. It was getting silly, taking over an hour to do 2 feet each time. we tried cold shoeing, and hot shoeing, nothing made a difference. Then one day when he came out to do her back legs, she snatched a leg from him and he hurt his back. He had to get hsi wife to come out with a friend to collect him and the van.

I ended up getting out a farrier i used to use when i had my pony. He came out, walked over to her, said hello, she went to rear up at him, he slapped her across the muzzle with his hand. She backed off, stood shocked for a few seconds, tried to strike out at him , he slapped her across the muzzle again and shouted STAND!!.

That day she stood like a lamb when he shod her, and there after we never had any problems again.

While i agree that it is not the farrier job to repremand your horse, your horse has to respect the farrier. Some people on my yard are useless as controlling there horses, and if there farrier so much as gets a little firm with there horses, they get all funny about it. "becasue its there baby!"

Most farrier know how to handle horses that get a little big for there boots, they handle horses day in day out, in most cases i find that a repremanding in the right way, at the right time is useful.
 
ANYONE raises their hands or feet to hit my horses - they bl**dy well better have good medical insurance!

No one hits my horses in anger! I don't strike my horses, and no one else should have cause to.

My brilliant and very knowledgeable UKNHCP trimmer handles some very difficult horses (often made so by previous experiences with the F) and is firm and never ever lashes out in anger. Pressure yes, hitting and anger, no.

Lashing out is unprofessional conduct and should be reported to the professional governing body.
 
My farrier is excellent and by working together, we've come up with a method that keeps pony calm whilst being shod and farrier safe as he can be a bit funny to shoe behind.

What he says is that its his job to put shoes on my horse and its my job to present him fit for shoeing. What annoys him is people who have horses who either have issues with shoeing or just haven't been handled enough but they won't work with the farrier or do anything to address the issue (BTW - I'm not suggesting thats the case with anyone here).

This I also fully support - at the end of the day farriers do a job that has the potential to be extremely hazardous, therefore I believe we as owners, have a duty to minimise that risk as much as possible and work with the farrier to address any problems.

I would have no issue with my farrier giving my horse a smack if he was in the right place at the right time and most importantly for the right reason i.e. horse just testing the boundaries as opposed to frightened, nervous etc. However, I wouldn't expect this to be a regular occurence and I certainly wouldn't condone the use of anything more than a smack with the hand.
 
I really dont mind my farrier hitting my horse with his hand if she is naughty, as I would myself, she likes to take the piss!!! however more than that and I wouldnt be happy, I dont let my horse push me about and keep her well disaplinned, so why should he put up with her rudeness!
 
the farrier my old boss used at the yard i worked at was fab he quite impressed me, if the horse was being a twat he'd give it a chance but then if it carried on he'd bellow at it so loudly i got a scare as it was so not like him, and then the horses just seemed to stand stock still, i seen him holding onto this fells hoof as he reared about 5times he just didnt let go kept smiling and the fell gave up
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I remember as a child the farrier wolloped one of our yearling section A's across the neck with his rasp as it kept shuffling...my mum was furious and told him to leave and never used him again.

This is why I like to be there when mine have the farrier, I will hold them/stand with them and if they need telling off I will do it, although my farrier knows I am more than happy for him to smack them if need be. We both have the same opinion though on telling a horse off, do it quickly and for the right reason i.e. its taking the p*ss rather than genuinly frightened. He's wonderful with my mare, she struggles holding her backs up (osteoarthritis in one hock) and puts them down a lot and sometimes jumps forward, but he has the patience of a saint with her and does his upmost to make her as comfortable as he can.
 
My farrier is fantastic, but I ensure all my horses will stand calmly when tied up. I have had several livery horses who have never been taught manners, they are a pain to lead, won;t stand still and pull back when tied up. if they are like that then I insist on the owners being present and holding their own horses. it is not the farriers job to teach them manners. All my own horses will stand outside their own stables for as long as i leave them there, even my 2 year old. they know they behave and don't pull back and they know they don;t rear or strike out. As a result I can leave all my horses in their stables and the farrier will take each one out and shoe it and put it back. I have heard him growl at a livery horse, and give it a smack on teh neck but never in temper and he is a great horseman and can reas the signs. my old boy has a very stiff hind and he does him quietly and calmly and waits for the leg to come up. He also is fantastic with teh youngsters, being firm and calm with them and picking their feet up for as short a time as possible. If an owner can;t be bothered to teach their own horse how to behave how can a farrier do his job.
 
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My farrier is fantastic, but I ensure all my horses will stand calmly when tied up. I have had several livery horses who have never been taught manners, they are a pain to lead, won;t stand still and pull back when tied up.

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Yes I agree, horses aren't born knowing how to behave with humans they have to be taught just like children!!
 
My horse is really not happy having her feet trimmed (she is barefoot) she is unbalanced on 3 legs so my farrier has to be quite quick, he always lets her have a break and when she plays up as she does with her back legs he is so patient with her and doesnt shout or hit even though i know it must be so frustrating for him, he actually jokes about it! we are really lucky to have him.
 
i am now in the process of getting a new farrier out (female too) my wee boy has at some point been given some serious batterings as almost everything scares him, the farrier i had come out last month was informed that he was headshy, very nervy & might try to bunny hop away (its more like a geriatric shuffle) but a gentle word from me and he is fine.

i was holding him untied as the farrier picked up front leg (we got a wiggle & the tinyist shuffle away) & th farrier response was to elbow him in the face, resulting in a full blown rear & lash out that just missed me (i will point out i am over 7 months pregnant!) once i had calmed my poor lad's down (the old boy was trying to come over the door at farrier) i told him to pack up & P1$$ off. the boys are well overdue now for a trim but his moment of impatience hads undone so much hard work with the lad.

many are fantastic, but as with most things its normally the bad ones that get mentioned. i still wish my old farrier was still working but retired several years ago (id drive my boys the 40 odd miles to him if he would do them)
 
I think it is totally ridiculous to suggest that a farrier has the right to 'defend himself' when the horse acting up is clearly frightened, he isn't defending he is attacking. Nor should farriers have any right to physically reprimand a horse. I fail to see how any violence is going to help the situation.
I do however totally agree that they shouldn't put themselves in a dangerous situation and should say they aren't willing to carry on if they feel the horse may harm them.

I feel quite strongly about this subject as I recently had a bad experience with a farrier and now my 5yr old will not let any farrier near him, he has even become very agitated and impatient with having his feet handled by me.

It will certainly take a lot of time and patience to get his trust back.

That is not to condemn all farriers as like anything some are great but there are a lot of horror stories around.
 
The difference is whether the horse is frightened or not. I trust my farrier to be able to tell the difference. And I stand by his right to smack my horse or growl at her if she puts him in a dangerous position. (ETA - I would do the same thing!)

It is a dangerous job and they are sometimes going to be in an enclosed area with a horse that the can't get away from safely. I really don't think you can generalise like that, although I appreciate you have had a bad experience,and hope your horse gets over it quickly.
 
I'm with you coen. The sad thing is horses seem to learn a very big lesson from anger and violence that takes time and patience to put right.

I have one mare that is reluctant sometimes with her feet but it seems to coincide with her feet being sore... thrush or lgl for example and I do think feet being sore is one thing I used to miss or not even think of as a factor. Soft surface to stand on and occasional (and I stress occasional) bute prior to an important trim has been helpful with her in the past.
 
I wasn't generalising as I appreciate that their are plenty of excellent farriers around but I do think this topic is very current as a lot of people have had problems with farriers overstepping the mark.
I also realise that people's opinions on where that line is differs, but I still believe that their is no excuse for a farrier hitting the horse.
They are very rarely dangerous for the sake of it and my experience is that it makes the horse over react or frightened into submission. Neither or which in necessary.

I suppose the opinion view is firm but fair.
 
No but my horse doesn't play up - I can trust the farrier to do his job without being there (there are always people at the yard - busy yard.) Never hear any complaints from them about her - other than the feathers are too long
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There was once a time when my horse got a smack around the head for 'dragging' a staff member when she was on full livery. I wasn't impressed - 10 yo children have led her in from the field and not had a problem - so either the girl WAY over-reacted or was completely incompetent. I wouldn't ever think it was acceptable for someone to smack another persons horse around the head.
I work with horses and wouldn't ever dream of doing it - they do occassionally get a smack on the shoulder for playing up but that's all.
 
I always am present when horse is shod. I had one farriers apprentice years ago try to hit my pony with a hammer as then pony litterally brushed past him (didnt actually touch the farrier) with a hoof as he was helpfully putting it on the shoeing tripod. The apprentice used to hide from me as I then threatened to hit him with the hammer!

I left the last farrier to shoe him on his own as he knew pony was good to shoe having explained that pony shouldnt be tied up but stands like a rock if leadrope put over a tie ring loosly. he ignored me resulting in pony breaking headcollar and running of up a road!

Present farrier is lovely.
 
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Our farrier growls and digs a half-hearted elbow in the direction of our youngsters, (doesn't actually make contact) does that count?
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In all fairness its because all of them will, given half a chance and a ridden-up top, go rooting for knickers/boxers to give you a wedgie with
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Hence why we hold our horses for our poor farrier.
 
At the end of the day we are only there to trim/shoe your horse. Its training is your responsibility.

there is a big difference between fear and the horse that is taking the pi55.

Some of you say no tools (which I personally completely agree with) and then some say yes hit the horse and others say they would nail my balls to the roof if i hit their horse. looks like we cant win.

You dont have to hit a horse to be firm with it

I have all the patience in the world for a nervous horse. A horse that wants to hurt me on the other hand is a different story ...especially if the owner doesnt seem overly concerned for their horses or my safety.

the ultimate bottom line is if your horse is dangerous or nervous you should be there to hold it!!!
 
My farrier is fab. I have a horsey farrier which helps - many arent!

I would say, that it is their livelihood at the end of the day - if I was put at risk and knew it could mean I am out of work (remember they are self employed) for a couple of months, I would be defensive too. They are there to shoe your horse, and if your horse kicks out, rears etc, they are well within their rights to protect themselves within reason.
 
i dont condone any violent behaviour from farriers BUT in their defence, they have a very dangerous job.

My Farrier has said on many occasion that his job is far more difficult these days as some owners do not teach their horses to behave correctly when being shod...even something as basic as picking up their horses feet seems to be beyond some owners.

(maybe this should be in "the good old days"
 
I actually do think someone should hold the horse for the farrier if they are even a bit of a fidget.

My horse certainly wasn't dangerous before this incident just a little nervous because he is still young so it's all new but now I am left with a horse who is dangerous. Now trying to find a farrier willing to persevere and rebuild his confidence isn't going to be easy. I won't attempt shoeing and will just get his feet trimmed but even so we are left with a huge problem.
Anyone know an easy going & experienced farrier in Essex?
 
My pony had an abcess; I hadn't noticed as he wasn't lame; but the farrier didn't notice either; when he nailed the shoe on my pony pulled his foot away; The farrier kicked him twice in the belly.

I was so shocked I just stood there, didn't say a word. But when he left I told him he was very fortunate my 6ft 4 son wasn't here as he wouldn't be doing any more shoeing!!

Its taken me months to get him to stand quietly and give me his feet
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He is 19 now and is a little stiff, but obviously that wasn't taken into account.

The next farrier hit him across the head. This time I asked him to leave.

I have now found a sensitive farrier, and my pony is much better!
 
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