Fed up....thoughts? Ideas? General sympathy?!

Thrown in the deep end and forced to get on with it is not the idea. That's just nasty. The aim is trust.

Usually when people detach a cheekpiece to put the bit in they still try to get the mouth open. Unsure if thats what you're doing. I'm talking thread the cheekpiece and bit through his closed mouth from the side. He will likely open up once something is in there anyway.

Get a lunge line. Modern twine is strong and doesn't break. Headcollars and ropes often break first. Thread the lunge line through the ring on the wall, not twine, and clip to headcollar. Handler holds other end in loops like lungeing. If he panics and moves back let him (let the lunge line out a bit but keep some pressure on it, handler stays between him and the tie ring), and pause with what you were doing that caused the panic. Calm him, then ask (*not* pull on the lunge line) him to step forward to the tie ring (I ask with a finger poke at the girth as if a leg aid when ridden) until he's at a normal tie-up length and when he steps forward, shorten the lunge line again. Repeat as necessary. No force, he is not trapped, but yet can't break free. He learns that he cant break free when scared but nothing bad happens, he eventually stops trying to break free when scared and trusts you when you put a hand on the leadrope and ask him verbally to remain standing at the tie ring. Not desensitization to a particular thing. Learning to obey and trust, despite feeling fear.
 
joycec said:
A horse does not even have a full set of adult teeth until it's that age, so for a horse to go lazy because of its mouth at that age is a very strange story. I still think the horse is more likely to have been neglected due to performance issues caused by the same problem that are still causing him issues to be ridden today. I have a feeling that getting the bit in his mouth is the least of his problems and more likely a symptom than a cause.

Why would he dump you if he was happy to be ridden? Your description is of a horse who, nine days out of ten, or more often, does not want a rider on his back. I think you need to stop worrying about his mouth, and find out why.
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The teeth themselves only became a problem because his gums got infected, which got so bad holes in his gums developed, loosening the teeth. Obviously causing a lot of pain, meaning the food he was trying to chew fell back out of his mouth because his teeth were not strong enough to chew properly and the holes in his gums meant food stuck in there and worsened the infection. Hence he was severely underweight, and hence the laziness. So 2nd owner clearly saw the laziness but never bothered to investigate why he was so lazy. He did not have problems putting the bridle on previously, only since we've had him. The dentist who has been treating with him said the teeth & gums were so bad it has to have been ongoing for years, well before current owner got him. So I dont think having adult teeth or baby teeth would have made a difference, it was more the infection in the gums which subsequently loosened the teeth and created the issues. But either way the 2nd owner (and the 1st owner to an extent) let his mouth get into a bad way, resulting in nearly a year's worth of extensive treatment with a specialist dentist (the yard dentist had to refer him it was that bad).

I genuinely dont think he had many problems when he went to the 2nd owner - yes his teeth might have been on a downhill slope as the 1st owner didnt have a great dentist if they left remnants of wolf teeth in, but aside from that the photos prove he was doing really well and progressing as any 5 year old should have been. The behaviour changed with the 2nd owner so without being present throughout his early life one would have to point the finger at the 2nd owner, who was visibly seen to beat him onto the lorry when she collected him with a whip. More fool the 1st owner for letting her do so - but hey ho, we cant comment on what people will do when a few thousand pounds has just been placed in their hands.

And when I say he's dumped me - 3 times in the space of a year, all prior to ulcer treatment - so in that respect I think we are moving forwards and I have thankfully not been on the floor in over 6 months.

But I do agree that getting the bit in his mouth is not a real issue in the grand scheme of things - yes it causes control issues in that I have to ride him in a bitless bridle, but I completely agree there is a lot more going on mentally with this horse. We know its not pain (apart from eyesight perhaps) as we've investigated everything else, and are treating the ulcers which after 8 weeks are still grade 2 so will of course be causing pain and discomfort still. Knowing this horse as I do it is mostly mental not physical - I do think the natural horsemanship/behavioural side of things may be the way to go as its the only thing we've not tried yet,.
 
If he was mine, I'd have the bridle with me every time I went near to him. You don't have to do anything with it, just have it around so he learns it's not a scary thing. Bring it in the box with you when you're grooming him, for example.

How is he in general with having his mouth handled? Can you touch his bars/ask him to open his mouth without him freaking out? Have you tried putting the bridle on once he's worked?
 
Just exactly what veterinary diagnostics has he had?

"Everything being done" could mean one of two things: the horse having every leg MRI'd and a bone scan etc, or the vet has looked at him all over, done flexions on each leg and says there is nothing wrong.
 
I got the impression that he was generally difficult to ride, spooky, prone to irrational outbursts and freezing? I don't see anything in the past that you have described that would make him behave like that now.

I also think it's extremely rare for any horse, even one who hasn't had his teeth touched by anyone since birth, to have a mouth like you describe at six years old.

I think there may be more going on with this horse than you think. I think it's likely that whatever turned him lazy also caused the gum disease and causes the irrational behaviour; maybe anaemia, maybe a metabolic disease like ems/EPSM/ESPA

Has he had blood work done for anaemia, liver and kidney function, and mineral levels?
 
joycec said:
I got the impression that he was generally difficult to ride, spooky, prone to irrational outbursts and freezing? I don't see anything in the past that you have described that would make him behave like that now.

I also think it's extremely rare for any horse, even one who hasn't had his teeth touched by anyone since birth, to have a mouth like you describe at six years old.

I think there may be more going on with this horse than you think. I think it's likely that whatever turned him lazy also caused the gum disease and causes the irrational behaviour; maybe anaemia, maybe a metabolic disease like ems/EPSM/ESPA

Has he had blood work done for anaemia, liver and kidney function, and mineral levels?
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Good sense!!
 
My daughter has a pony who was extremely spooky and I just couldn't figure out what was the matter with him. I too suspected ulcers or possibly his teeth, but he's only six and too thought maybe he's not old enough to have serious problems with his teeth, though his wolf teeth are not through properly yet. He was in a simple eggbutt snaffle and changed him to a sweet iron french link, still no improvement. I'd been riding him a little with just a head collar and lead rope and he seemed fine, one day I thought I'd try him on the road with a bridle on (as my daughter rides) he shot his head in the air when I tried to get a contact, anyway long story short, he's now in a rubber happy mouth straight bar and he's so much happier, he's a different pony! I think he likes the warmer feeling of the rubber in his mouth, worth a try, I only paid £4 for it on ebay! He's also on Magox too, which helps, good luck x
 
If you can get him to Melanie watson she honestly works miricles. My little lad I was told to shoot by several proffessionals, but melanie turned him round into a sweet loving ridable horse.
Thourghly recomend her, she will also travel to you, occassionaly does clinics alround the country.

even if you just give her a call she is happy to give advice and suggestions

http://www.instinctivehorsetraining.co.uk/
 
you know a horse has to be taught what the aids from a bitless (any sort) bridle mean? they are not born knowing, any youngster being backed will run through the bridle at times due to confusion/panic it is part of introducing new equipment, so I would personally continue to introduce bitless and continue to work with the bit too-bit up to give a feed-put the bit in (no browband/noseband/reins) and the give the feed, keep going till the bit is taken readily then start to put the bit in and offer tiny feed and put bitless bridle on and ride off the bitless bridle with the bit being worn with no reins/browband/noseband. patience and repetition will get every horse to accept every thing.

I would turn the horse away until the ulcers are sorted though and not start anything till they are sorted
 
meandmyself said:
If he was mine, I'd have the bridle with me every time I went near to him. You don't have to do anything with it, just have it around so he learns it's not a scary thing. Bring it in the box with you when you're grooming him, for example.

How is he in general with having his mouth handled? Can you touch his bars/ask him to open his mouth without him freaking out? Have you tried putting the bridle on once he's worked?
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Good idea - think I'll definitely try that.

He wasnt great with having his mouth handled as you can imagine, needed sedation to get the gag in for the dentist previously however we've moved past that now since his teeth have been fixed. We can do a little by ourselves with his mouth, i.e. touch his bars and get him to open up but again its not perfect, there is some resistance so we could do more work on this - I really liked the video of Melanie Watson who said to get that 3 year old to accept the bridle she 'added up the pieces' i.e. worked on the different elements separately, spending time working on touching her nose and making her comfortable with that, touching her face with the leather of various parts of the bridle, getting her to lower her head to the bridle, getting her to touch the bit by herself with her mouth.....then after weeks of doing that add it all together and it worked in getting the bridle on easily and without stress.

So I think we'll take that approach - work on each element he gets upset about, then eventually after weeks/months add it all back together when he is comfortable and put the bridle on properly.
 
wench said:
Just exactly what veterinary diagnostics has he had?

"Everything being done" could mean one of two things: the horse having every leg MRI'd and a bone scan etc, or the vet has looked at him all over, done flexions on each leg and says there is nothing wrong.
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He's not had scans yet - but vet has done all the usual checks. And we've had saddle checked, teeth done obviously, chiro & physio etc.

Vet wouldnt recommend we look at much else until the ulcers have improved (after 1st course of gastroguard there was improvement when re-scoped but not as much as vet was hoping, hence they think there is an infection).

If behaviour still does not change once ulcers have 100% cleared up then we'll look to next steps of investigation - I know everyone's 1st thought is to get the horse scanned and tested for everything under the sun but the owner has already spent over £10k just on the teeth alone (insurers would not cover - but thankfully they are covering ulcer treatment). So we are not in a position to throw money at scans etc when all the behavioural indicators are pointing at the ulcers being the main cause of the spooking, plus some mental disturbance from a 2 year spell with a less than kind owner.

We will absolutely look at scans etc as the next step if the ulcer treatment does not bring the changes we are hoping for, but the spooking and silly outbursts have decreased I'd say by about 50% since the first course of gastroguard, so there are clear improvements showing the ulcers are playing a big part in his behaviour.
 
joycec said:
I got the impression that he was generally difficult to ride, spooky, prone to irrational outbursts and freezing? I don't see anything in the past that you have described that would make him behave like that now.

I also think it's extremely rare for any horse, even one who hasn't had his teeth touched by anyone since birth, to have a mouth like you describe at six years old.

I think there may be more going on with this horse than you think. I think it's likely that whatever turned him lazy also caused the gum disease and causes the irrational behaviour; maybe anaemia, maybe a metabolic disease like ems/EPSM/ESPA

Has he had blood work done for anaemia, liver and kidney function, and mineral levels?
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Urm...ulcers?! He didnt have ulcers with previous owners, ulcers have developed because he was not able to eat properly due to teeth & gum issues - so behaviour has clearly got worse over the years as his teeth have declined, we all know ulcers are a major cause of spooky/silly behaviour when the acid splashes up onto an ulcer causing pain and the horse to 'spook'. It explains the spooking at thin air element, if he was scared of something like a dog, bird flapping....whatever, then fine there is another issue but thin air clearly nothing has scared him so logic would point to at that particular moment acid has hit one of the ulcers and he is jumping/spooking due to the pain.

So what are you trying to say about his teeth? That we made it up?! Look at the facts - 7 year old horse arrives with current owner, in a very underweight poor condition, after having been passed around 4 different dealers. New owner, as part of standard care with new horse gets dentist out for a rasp. Dentist takes one look at his mouth and says there is a major problem, one that did not develop overnight. We know the horse was owned by lady no. 2 for 2 years. She had him from 5-7. Therefore in that period of time issues have clearly developed in his mouth.

Regardless of how 'rare' you think it might be - the owner had him for 3 weeks when the dentist came to rasp him, and the dentist who is the qualified expert here, said the gum/teeth problems were something that have clearly built up over a space of months/years, not within 3 weeks. So lets go with what the experts think - between the age of 5 and 7 this horse developed severe problems with his teeth and gums, to the point holes formed in his gums loosening his teeth, preventing him from eating (you could see the food falling back out of his mouth as he chewed). We dont know what point in those 2 years it developed, but it has so lets move on and not argue about what age a horse can develop problems with their mouth. Rare or not, it happened, the owner has spent a lot of money fixing it and thankfully he can now eat again, has regained tonnes of condition and looks like a new horse.

And to the lazy point - the laziness has vanished and he is now a very hot, sharp WB that is incredibly forward going. As expected, once teeth were fixed he gained a lot of condition because he could chew his food and keep it in his mouth, putting on a lot of weight and getting the energy he needed from the food he eats. He was lazy prior to teeth being fixed (when he was underweight), now teeth are sorted and ulcers improving he is no longer lazy. If he had anemia/metabolic disease he'd still be lazy now - the teeth being fixed and ulcers improving would not have changed the laziness if it were one of those things.

So at the moment no we have not done blood work because there are no indicators it is any of those things causing any problems. But again, we wont rule anything out and once ulcers are gone if we are still having issues we'll look into other options.
 
twiggy2 said:
you know a horse has to be taught what the aids from a bitless (any sort) bridle mean? they are not born knowing, any youngster being backed will run through the bridle at times due to confusion/panic it is part of introducing new equipment, so I would personally continue to introduce bitless and continue to work with the bit too-bit up to give a feed-put the bit in (no browband/noseband/reins) and the give the feed, keep going till the bit is taken readily then start to put the bit in and offer tiny feed and put bitless bridle on and ride off the bitless bridle with the bit being worn with no reins/browband/noseband. patience and repetition will get every horse to accept every thing.

I would turn the horse away until the ulcers are sorted though and not start anything till they are sorted
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Thanks for this - am absolutely going to carry on with the bitless, I am aware it takes a while for them to learn the aids so we are going to keep going and hopefully over the next few months we'll both be better with it (I need to learn as much as he does!).

I like the idea of putting the bitless over the bit (minus reins/browband/noseband), that is a good idea thank you.

And in terms of the ulcers, the vet has asked we keep working him (more than we may have before) as he wants us to monitor his behaviour for improvements as they obviously cant keep scoping him on a weekly basis. He is being re-scoped every 8 weeks ish - so we will do as the vet has asked on this occasion.

But thank you for the advice - some good pointers there to think about.
 
Any vet that asks you to keep riding a horse with what sounds like pretty bad ulcers is not worth listening to. Monitoring ridden behaviour certainly won't tell said vet if the ulcers are improving or not.
Personally I think that this horse has been through a lot and should have been turned away to heal for at least six months following mouth surgery and then have been brought back into work with ground work for the next few months instead of being expected to work when clearly still in pain. You and your friend clearly love this horse and kudos to you both for not giving up on him but from everything you have said I think you have pushed him into being ridden before he is really ridden.
 
kez81 said:
Any vet that asks you to keep riding a horse with what sounds like pretty bad ulcers is not worth listening to. Monitoring ridden behaviour certainly won't tell said vet if the ulcers are improving or not.
Personally I think that this horse has been through a lot and should have been turned away to heal for at least six months following mouth surgery and then have been brought back into work with ground work for the next few months instead of being expected to work when clearly still in pain. You and your friend clearly love this horse and kudos to you both for not giving up on him but from everything you have said I think you have pushed him into being ridden before he is really ridden.
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Ok well that is your opinion and that's fine - but from experience with this vet, especially with my youngster who injured himself badly in the field and this particular vet gave some advice that the equine hospital did not, which in turn saved his life....I think he knows what he is talking about therefore I trust his advice. Because this horse in question is improving in his behaviour, both on the ground and ridden, we know that the treatment is working. And the 2nd scope has proven that. If he were turned away how else would we know? YO's horse is also being treated for ulcers, because he was not improving (in fact getting worse) when ridden and handled it prompted him to be re-scoped earlier than normal, and found that ulcers have in fact got worse not better prompting them to re-evaluate treatment, and stop riding. So I'm sure all vets have different approaches to riding/handling with ulcers or not, but in these 2 cases it has been beneficial that the horses were both in work when evaluating their progress. Just because one vet has a different approach to another doesnt mean it is wrong, we should always be open when it comes to horses as we know one thing that works for one horse wont necessarily work for another. Open mindedness is a good thing.

I have been doing a lot of reading on groundwork and agree it is something we should have done more of - admittedly a bad experience with one so called 'natural horsemanship' trainer (she came to give a lesson, in fact made it worse and scared the life out of him) has put me off ground work a little but I realise that is silly and something we need to revisit. In fact I did a good ground work session with him last night instead of riding and it was enjoyable for both of us - he responded really well and shows we have got a good bond as he was very attentive and didnt put a foot wrong, even when presented with some unfamiliar scenarios (making him walk through 2 jump wings with a narrow gap between them - he normally hates coloured jump wings). Definitely something I'll do a lot more of to keep building trust and it should pay off in the ridden work.
 
kc100 said:
Ok well that is your opinion and that's fine - but from experience with this vet, especially with my youngster who injured himself badly in the field and this particular vet gave some advice that the equine hospital did not, which in turn saved his life....I think he knows what he is talking about therefore I trust his advice. Because this horse in question is improving in his behaviour, both on the ground and ridden, we know that the treatment is working. And the 2nd scope has proven that. If he were turned away how else would we know? YO's horse is also being treated for ulcers, because he was not improving (in fact getting worse) when ridden and handled it prompted him to be re-scoped earlier than normal, and found that ulcers have in fact got worse not better prompting them to re-evaluate treatment, and stop riding. So I'm sure all vets have different approaches to riding/handling with ulcers or not, but in these 2 cases it has been beneficial that the horses were both in work when evaluating their progress. Just because one vet has a different approach to another doesnt mean it is wrong, we should always be open when it comes to horses as we know one thing that works for one horse wont necessarily work for another. Open mindedness is a good thing.

I have been doing a lot of reading on groundwork and agree it is something we should have done more of - admittedly a bad experience with one so called 'natural horsemanship' trainer (she came to give a lesson, in fact made it worse and scared the life out of him) has put me off ground work a little but I realise that is silly and something we need to revisit. In fact I did a good ground work session with him last night instead of riding and it was enjoyable for both of us - he responded really well and shows we have got a good bond as he was very attentive and didnt put a foot wrong, even when presented with some unfamiliar scenarios (making him walk through 2 jump wings with a narrow gap between them - he normally hates coloured jump wings). Definitely something I'll do a lot more of to keep building trust and it should pay off in the ridden work.
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In your shoes I would speak to the vet and ask if they felt that possibly riding a horse that is showing indicators of pain (thought to be from ulcers) could be reenforcing bad behaviour long term by causing pain responses short term? just a thought
 
meandmyself said:
If he was mine, I'd have the bridle with me every time I went near to him. You don't have to do anything with it, just have it around so he learns it's not a scary thing. Bring it in the box with you when you're grooming him, for example.

How is he in general with having his mouth handled? Can you touch his bars/ask him to open his mouth without him freaking out? Have you tried putting the bridle on once he's worked?
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I second this and was going to suggest it before I found the comment! Also if possible and as silly as it sounds are you able to tack up another horse with their bridle whilst he is stood next to them? It could be another way to desensitive him to the bridle. Clearly in his mind bridle = pain/discomfort/stress. If he can see that it doesn't meant that to other horses it could help....just a thought.
 
I just wanted to add fair play to you for not giving up on a horse that you know & his owner knows deep down is not a bad horse & has been good in past & working through things with him to make his life more comfortable and enjoyable. You are the only ones who know exactly what he is like and if he is worth it.

I know some people are saying throw him out & let him be a horse but I have seen incidences where that has done nothing - horse comes back in the exact same and you have lost a year you could have been working with him to sort it out.

I've never dealt with issues that you are facing so I say fair play to you -I took on a horse with some institutionalised issues that I didnt realise at the time or really understand but I just took it a day at a time & worked through it best I could. He was petrified of dressage whips & lunge whips so like that I would carry them everywhere with me and just work getting them to touch him from the ground & realise it wasnt scary - treats, treats & more treats! lol!

Anyway, with time & patience it worked, I can ride him now with a dressage whip & tap him up without an explosion :) My only small bit of information about bitting I can offer, is my horse was just hard mouthed and would clamp onto the bit & cross his jaw & bascially hated a bit but I never had any issues getting the bit in his mouth but I tried to make it more pleasant so he didnt resent it. I tried Bongela - its great cause its minty so they like it and I would just stick my finger in the corner of his mouth with some on my finger & then get him used to things going in his mouth that didnt hurt! Then, after a while, because he liked the Bongela & also because it has a slight numbing effect, I would put the bit in & he wouldnt harden his jaw cause it was all relaxed and soft!! Worth a try maybe??
 
I've got a lightrider bitless bridle, and I really like it.

This horse does sound a lot of hard work though, and, if the ulcers are the only medical condition he has, he still has a long way to go, and to get him "right" will quite possibly take a lot of work, and a lot of time.

One thing that you may like to consider is the use of an animal communicator. They have helped me out a couple of times, and may be able to help you pin point if its just the ulcers causing a problem, or if there is something else. Many people will rubbish the idea, but if you search on here there are others who have used an AC to great effect.

Another thing that I have found out, is that if your horse has a problem, such as these behaviour type issues, they need to be worked on every day, not just as and when you can fit it in (which is the problem I have). If you don't have time to do this everyday (ie the bridle issue), its often best to leave the problem, and almost find a way to work up to it. For example just having the bridle around, and not doing anything with it, and doing lots of ground work with him I think would also help him a lot.

There is a lot you can do from the ground, which includes lunging/playing over poles, long reining. There are also some interesting books on groundwork that you can get, which should help give exercises etc to do with him.
 
I think I'm erring on the side of turning him away for a bit because I'm not sure I would be convinced he is physically comfortable. Although I am aware that it might not help and you might then 'lose a year' if the horse isn't being sold/PTS I am not sure that is too bad a thing.

With regards to the otherwise going forwards I think you need to either investigate and train him to understand the various bitless options, and/or use some very slow retraining of accepting a bit in some of the ways described.
 
kc100 said:
He's not had scans yet - but vet has done all the usual checks. And we've had saddle checked, teeth done obviously, chiro & physio etc.

Vet wouldnt recommend we look at much else until the ulcers have improved (after 1st course of gastroguard there was improvement when re-scoped but not as much as vet was hoping, hence they think there is an infection).

If behaviour still does not change once ulcers have 100% cleared up then we'll look to next steps of investigation - I know everyone's 1st thought is to get the horse scanned and tested for everything under the sun but the owner has already spent over £10k just on the teeth alone (insurers would not cover - but thankfully they are covering ulcer treatment). So we are not in a position to throw money at scans etc when all the behavioural indicators are pointing at the ulcers being the main cause of the spooking, plus some mental disturbance from a 2 year spell with a less than kind owner.

We will absolutely look at scans etc as the next step if the ulcer treatment does not bring the changes we are hoping for, but the spooking and silly outbursts have decreased I'd say by about 50% since the first course of gastroguard, so there are clear improvements showing the ulcers are playing a big part in his behaviour.
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£10k?!?!?!

On what? With my maths that 250 appointments with an EDT.....(obviously £40 is basic) so lets up it to £120 per appointment that's still 83 appointments?!?!?!
 
Sorry if this has already been mentioned by someone (on lunch break so not enough time to read all the replies) but have you tried riding him in a dually? This is a nose pressure principal with pressure and release and is very effective for my 17.1hh WB.

I think the dually is a wonderful piece of kit. I have ridden in it, loaded with it, lunged with it, handled with it and even jumped with it! My horse is more relaxed and obedient in the dually than any other combination.

If the horse is still playing up then I would suspect he is in pain, horses don't usually play up consistently for no reason despite what people might say! If he has been holding his head in a different position to alleviate the pain in his mouth for years then it could be that he has over compensated elsewhere, for example setting his jaw so his TMJ joint is hurting for an example, or maybe his neck.

I would get a physio to look him over and check him. See if there is any area that is sore.

Before I get shot down in flames I know there are horses who buck, rear, etc. but when done consistently this nearly always means that they are reacting to an area of inflammation or pain. Horses aren't born bad, and they don't think "I will get my rider off today for a laugh" or "I can't be bothered to work today". THis is just simply not how happy horses work.

You could rule this out by doing a bute trial but this isn't always effective for reasons that are quite complicated but as my vet attempted to expain to me sometimes a horse will be worse on a bute trial because it is moving in a totally different way which makes it appear lame but is isn't actually in pain but it is 'mechanically lame' which is a whole different ball game altogether.

Hope you get it sorted soon x
 
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Aleka81 said:
£10k?!?!?!

On what? With my maths that 250 appointments with an EDT.....(obviously £40 is basic) so lets up it to £120 per appointment that's still 83 appointments?!?!?!
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Why do you assume it was all fixable by an EDT. I have had a few horses who have had to have major surgery to remove teeth or fix abcesses etc. The costs of a full anasthetic, surgery and a week long stay in the vets can easily make it to £8k alone.
High dose antibiotics and pain killers for quite a while and checkups from the vet regularly aswell as an EDT would easily make up the rest if not more!
 
For what its worth I would say turn him away for a while, let his mouth settle down, get the ulcers sorted (he is being scoped every 8 weeks anyway so just get him scoped without being worked, at least this way you are not reinforcing the 'bridle means riding, riding means pain' cycle) then get him checked by a physio / chiro so you know as much as possible that he is not in pain before you start riding again.
With regards to the bit, my youngster went through a phase of sticking his head up and saying 'no thanks!' to the bridle and at 17.2 / 18hh (stopped measuring at 5 years old and 17.2hh lol) you have to work around. Put a headcollar on then using bit attachments from a lunge cavesson, attach the bit to the offside, gently bring the horses head round to the side - they can't put their head in the air and bend at the same time, so standing on the near side, bend him into you using your right hand, then holding the bit with your left hand under his mouth, slide your thumb into the corner of his mouth for him to open and gently slide the bit in, then attach this side to the headcollar. Then put the bridle on and re-attach the bit.
The key is to remain calm and neutral and be consistent. Took about a week for me to be able to go back to putting the bit on with no problems again.
Good luck with him !
 
I agree that bitless might be the way to go - one of mine is always bitless so I'm very pro that. However, if you want to persevere with the snaffle my excellent equine dentist taught me a very useful trick for a bit/bridle shy horse. Use a plain rope halter and rope, one about 8-10 ft long. Work in a stable so you don't need to tie up. Attach the rope to the halter, take it under the horse's elbow and back up to his chin, looped snugly behind the elbow. Simply hold both parts of the rope tight together. If the horse tries to raise his head he's pulling on his own leg. You'll need two people, one for the rope/horse, one to bridle, just put it on over the rope halter. It certainly worked a treat on the difficult young Sports Horse a friend was struggling with. Within a couple of attempts she could juggle the rope herself , and he soon stopped bothering to raise his head or try to evade.
 
Aleka81 said:
£10k?!?!?!

On what? With my maths that 250 appointments with an EDT.....(obviously £40 is basic) so lets up it to £120 per appointment that's still 83 appointments?!?!?!
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He had to go to a specialist in London twice for surgery, add in the transport costs (we dont have a lorry) plus the surgery, plus hospital care for the subsequent weeks (a week each time) after surgery, plus the dentist back home at the yard, plus the vets for sedation and antibiotics....ongoing for almost a year - quickly comes to £10k.
 
Claire-R said:
If it was my horse I would take him back to basics. A lot of ground work as it sounds like hes scared but also taking the mick! wipe the slate clean and tackle his issues one by one rather than all at once!

You'll get there though, never give up. I nearly gave up on my mare and I'm glad I didn't as she is awesome now! after a lot of stress and tears.
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ester said:
Has he had any proper down time in between?

I wonder if you are sort of trying to force the being ridden issue with a horse that doesn't sound all that comfortable with that question/can't cope with the rest of life.
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soulfull said:
If friend never intends selling or riding him herself, does he actually need to be ridden? Just wondering as your friend is getting a new horse to ride could this one not just be a field ornament?
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All of these....I haven gone through all of the replies but my wb came with issues, turned out to be KS but that's another story, she was ear twitched etc and after four years we can get a bridle on....it hasn't been that long to be honest. I would just give up on the riding for now and just play on the ground. Work with his mouth without putting pressure on him to have a bit in it. Play with the but loose, no bridle attached, let him nibble it and then take away, once going in and out of mouth with out fuss then extend.....same with the being away from horses issue.....just take the pressure off and play on the ground.

Helping hi to make new memories of good things will take time and it seems he I so. The right direction but as with my wb it's now four years and she is completely different to when I first got her, chilled, can have bridle on, doesn't mind being in the barn on her own or feild......doing things with us and no other horses. It just slotted into place in its own time.
 
Some really excellent advice here, it's not something I always use, but I did start using clicker training for my boy. It's a fantastic way (if done correctly) to teach them to control their emotions. Have a good read up on it, don't rush the process, but certainly I think it could help with desensitising him in a controlled and gentle way.
 
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