Fed up....thoughts? Ideas? General sympathy?!

Not read the whole thread, just the first page. Love your attitude :)
Mine has never been ill treated but used to be a huge pain to take the bit.
I spent most evenings one winter Clicker training him to take the bit, just 30 minutes. Two years later he is a dream. He puts his head in the bridle. But I always give him a nut or two as he takes the bit.
He was dangerous and scary to bit up at one point.
Good luck.
 
Hi OP. What about this?

Horse doesn't like bit. This could be one of two things;
1. Horse is remembering pain in mouth.
2. Horse is unhappy with the something during the process of being ridden-bit symbolises ridden work.

If you stop ridden work and focus on ground work and horse goes much better generally, then you know to investigate discomfort under saddle too. Meanwhile, it can do no harm to go back to basics.

With the issue of accepting the bit, I'd buy a cheap, very long, straight rubber bit. Attach only the head piece and cheek pieces very loosely, causing no pressure but not letting the bit sit too low.

I'd put the halter on, have your friend stand on one side, you on the other. Stand on mounting blocks of need be and spend as much time as necessary getting the bit in. If it is long, you will have more space on each side to work with. You'll also give him more space in the bridle as you are getting it over his head and it's less likely to be claustrophobic.

I'd leave the halter and bit on for 15 minutes and leave him to graze on a lead rein, take off and put back in field. I'd do this every day, maybe twice a day, building to walking on a lead and eventually long reining or lunging. I would ensure no pressure is put on the bit and the lead is only attached to the halter. I'd keep long bit to start and work towards well fitted bit once long but was accepted more easily.

When I progress to ridden, only once in properly fitted bit, I'd keep it in walk, with friend walking along side in the school. I'd use bitless bridle AND loose bit but only using bitless pressure. Eventually I would add a second pair of reins and alternate pressure, immediately backing off the bit if I felt tension. I'd do this until horse felt comfortable with bitted pressure and not resistant. Then I'd drop the bitless and continue with well fitted bitted bridle. I would not canter at all during this process until all walk and trot work was properly established in bitted bridle, including pole work.

Also, it would be very useful to find out if he likes marmite. Lots of horses do and it would be so useful. Take a plastic sandwich bag, put in some carrots and a teaspoon of marmite. Feed marmite carrot treats for a week before trying anything with the bit. Once he associates the marmite with treats, you can smear some on the bit. The taste and smell is very strong so may override any association of the smell of rubber and metal; typical bit smell.

I wish you such good luck OP, sounds like you have quite a lot I work ahead and good on you for giving it a shot. It's not only the wasted horse to consider but instilling good manners and usefulness is vital for all horses. If for some unforeseen reason, he is not able to remain with you friend for life, you are giving him a solid basic education which will ensure his future. Really useful and kind thing you are doing.
 
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I agree with trying a bit made of plastic/leather as hopefully not going to bang his teeth and cause a spook. What about a dually over the bridle and after a few weeks of just putting the bit in and feeding him, not doing anything off it, do groundwork with it in but off the dually, then ride off the dually - you've always got a one rein stop in a dually if needed.

You might try a masterson method practitioner too - only bodywork my abused horse would let near her and they do a mouth/tongue thing that helps release pressure through the poll which mine who puts her tongue over the bit the instant she is stressed adored - v bizarre to watch mind!
 
kc100 said:
So what are you trying to say about his teeth? That we made it up?! Look at the facts - 7 year old horse arrives with current owner, in a very underweight poor condition, after having been passed around 4 different dealers. New owner, as part of standard care with new horse gets dentist out for a rasp. Dentist takes one look at his mouth and says there is a major problem, one that did not develop overnight. We know the horse was owned by lady no. 2 for 2 years. She had him from 5-7. Therefore in that period of time issues have clearly developed in his mouth.
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What an odd reaction. Of course I am not saying that you made it up. I am saying exactly what I said. That it is so unusual that I believe there must have been an underlying compromise to his immune system to have allowed it to happen, because even total neglect of a six year old horse does not usually result in a mouth that needs 10k spent to get it right.

If that issue has now gone, whatever it was, then of course you don't need any more tests.

I agree with everyone who is suggesting that you need to divorce the idea of the bit from pain, and that riding him bitted, or maybe at all, while he still has ulcer pain is not a good idea.

Good luck with getting him sorted.
 
Thanks everyone for the very helpful replies - made me re-focus on going back to basics re. the bit and loved that Melanie Watson video so got lots of useful ideas to try with him. I've already started the groundwork and am working on all the little elements that make up putting the bridle on that he reacts to (seeing the bridle for the first time, touching his nose, putting the bit in) individually before I even think about trying to get the bit in again and riding in the bitted bridle.

I am going to continue with the bitless as I'm sure we can both learn the aids over time and that will be a nice way of giving him a break from the bit, I want him to associate going in the school and out for a hack with a fun, pleasurable experience rather than something that always involves the bit. That way it might make the bit less of a daunting prospect when we come to ride with the bit in the future, he wont be dreading it so much. I've also bought a new bridle and new straight bar happy mouth rubber bit (apple scented of course!) - new bridle is a comfort bridle without a crank or flash, he is funny about putting your hand on his nose and doing up a flash so I want to keep it super simple with as little pressure on his nose as possible when we do come to use the bit.

Once his routine changes in the next couple of weeks (out in the day, in at night) I'm going to be able to go up every day before work, before he's turned out, to do the bridle practice so that should be a vast improvement on the 4 or 5 times a week he gets at the moment.

Feeling a lot more positive now so thank you everyone - fingers crossed with lots of practice and patience the bridle wont be a problem anymore, then with the ulcer treatment the spooking will lessen over time and he'll be a much happier chap than before; he's already like a different horse to what we had 10 weeks ago so hopefully we'll keep seeing the improvements as treatment continues.
 
If you say that the first owner loved him so much and he was good for her, and she's not too far away, could she get the bit in? I'm not saying he doesnt trust you but if it was her who did it first, and he was fine then, maybe he will be more keen to do it for her because she was before his past experiences?
 
I wanted to post an update as I got so many brilliant responses on this thread - a few months back after the final scope for ulcers came back clear, we were making progress, bitting was still an issue but behaviour was somewhat improved. Then he chucked me on the floor again so went with one of the suggestions I'd had on here - turn him away for an extended period.

So he's been out 24/7 with no work for about 3 months now (since September/October time), we were hoping the time away from work and any pressure whatsoever would mean he would forget about anything painful and chill out in the field with his pals. He is in a huge field, lots of grass, and has company with his field buddy, plus other horses during the day in the fields next to him.

Unfortunately chilled out is about as far from the truth as possible - he has gotten so much worse, it would only be fair to describe him as feral now. I'm glad we've tried it, we've ruled another route out - but christ I have never seen a horse so wild. He paces up and down the fence in the field, desperate for attention (if a human is present - the rest of the time I think he is eating but hard to say as when a human turns up he starts pacing). He charges at the gate trying to barge it down, he has broken through countless fences running riot around poor Y/O's fields. Doesnt matter if fence is wooden or electric tape, breaks through regardless. If you manage to get near him with a headcollar as soon as you try and lead him he bucks and bucks until the person leading lets go, only my 15st husband has managed to get him back up to the yard from the field only through being strong enough to keep hold of him when he goes into full bronc mode.

He came back up to the yard to have his teeth done (if you havent seen early posts on this thread, teeth were in a terrible state when he came to us so has had around £10k of work done to fix them), pre turning away we had a major break through that he didnt need sedation to get the gag in for the first time ever (may have been a fluke!), as soon as the dentist walked into the stable this time he reared (he didnt even have the gag in his hands or touch him).

The next plan is that we get a stable for him again (his owner has got a horse on loan now so new horse has the stable), fingers crossed one will come up soon, and then start him all over again from scratch with months and months of groundwork before we even think about bits or riding. He'll have to keep living out for the time being, you never know a couple more months might do it - but its not fair to the yard staff anymore to have to try and bring him in for vet/farrier/teeth, the more the weeks go on the worse he is getting and they are pretty scared of him now.

If that doesnt work.....well I dont know what the answer is, we are slowly running out of ideas with this one! His owner still doesnt want to give up on him which is sweet and neither do I, I just hope we havent done irreversible damage leaving him out in the field for the last few months.

My theory is that with his previous owner who neglected him, she left him in a starvation paddock for over a year completely alone and never went near him, hence why he got into such a state. Even though he has a lovely field with companions this time, I think he has gone back to that time when he was left by humans and mentally he is now in that same state again.

Perhaps he had built up more of a connection with me than I thought, he is a lot worse any time I go near him with the gate barging and pushing to get out, yet better when I lead him/walking near him compared to when the other girls go down to him. I know it may sound silly but he has such expressive eyes (they naturally show a lot of white, not a calm looking eye at all even when he is actually relaxed) and I can read him pretty well after nearly 2 years with him, when he looks at me I can see he wants to come back up and not be left in the field anymore. I honestly think he feels like he's been abandoned again, I wasnt sure if he trusted me when I was riding as at times his behaviour was so bad under saddle especially out hacking, but this period of being turned away has shown there was some sort of connection there at least.

I also think part of the problem is the girls go down once a day to feed him and his field buddy, so now he just associates the sight of a human with food and he is getting silly about that. But that wouldnt explain the rearing in the stable at the sight of the dentist. He never reared once prior to turning him away so this is a new development.

Fingers crossed we can get him back again after this - just wanted to post to update you all after you all took the time to post with your advice.

Word of warning for others - turning away doesnt always work!
 
twiggy2 said:
in he in a field with horses that come and go for work, stabling etc?
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No he's in a field with another horse that lives out 24/7 (that horse is not in work either) so he is never left alone at all. In the fields next to him other horses come and go, but his companion never leaves him.
 
my mare will only truely settle out in winter in a herd of 4 or more if no one leaves the field, there is ad lib forage and she gets no hard feed or routine daily contact, in a bigger herd she is fine as long as there are always 3 or more out at any one time-I think it is the safety in numbers thing.
we have 2 at work living out and they have to have fresh hay twice per day and never run out or one of them runs the fences and becomes difficult, bargy and kicking, because of her behaviour they do not get any hard feed as as soon as that is introduced she spends all her time running the fence for the next feed, when she is in work and coming in at night she has to come into an empty stable for an hour or so as if she comes into hay and feed she spends her whole time running the fence to come in and eat the stuff she does not have to work for-she is a very odd little mare.
If possible I would find herd turnout at a place where horses are not worked or handled on a daily basis, there is plenty of space and plenty of forage-difficult this time of year but I would want him to switch off before I start trying to work him.
 
twiggy2 said:
my mare will only truely settle out in winter in a herd of 4 or more if no one leaves the field, there is ad lib forage and she gets no hard feed or routine daily contact, in a bigger herd she is fine as long as there are always 3 or more out at any one time-I think it is the safety in numbers thing.
we have 2 at work living out and they have to have fresh hay twice per day and never run out or one of them runs the fences and becomes difficult, bargy and kicking, because of her behaviour they do not get any hard feed as as soon as that is introduced she spends all her time running the fence for the next feed, when she is in work and coming in at night she has to come into an empty stable for an hour or so as if she comes into hay and feed she spends her whole time running the fence to come in and eat the stuff she does not have to work for-she is a very odd little mare.
If possible I would find herd turnout at a place where horses are not worked or handled on a daily basis, there is plenty of space and plenty of forage-difficult this time of year but I would want him to switch off before I start trying to work him.
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That is a good idea - we do however have 2 issues with this, first one is that he needs daily hard feed to prevent the ulcers coming back (vet's instructions). Second is that loading is incredibly stressful for him (the previous owner whipped him onto the lorry hence fear of loading) so I'd doubt in his current state we'd get him near a lorry (the sound of the engine freaks him out let alone looking at one). Even if we got him onto a lorry and moved to a new yard, he gets very upset moving to a new yard (took nearly a year to get him to settle in current yard) so we'd only set ourselves back another year or more by moving him again.

Its a shame we dont have herd turn-out where we are currently but the yard is fantastic in that it has lots of good quality grazing and rotated fields so they can live out all year round, a lot of yards in the area cant even offer that due to soil type.

Interesting it was the feed that was causing your mare to run at the fences, that makes a lot of sense. Shame we cant stop the hard feed!
 
tricky situation-IME with ulcers once medication has stopped then stress reduction and constant access to good quality forage are the 2 main things that reduce the likely hood of re ocurrance. If you find the right yard and company for this horse he will settle on a new yard,sometimes the yard environment and equine company is just not right-we have one at work who has not really settled and has been there 10 months-he camefrom24/7turnout in large mixed herds in massive (20 acre plus) fields and with us he has good grazing the company of one other but when in wants to be out and when out wants to be in-I think we need to sell to a home that suits him better but he performs well at shows and eventing so he will be staying.
biggest problemis that ulcers can occur from just one stressful event (such as loading/travelling) if ahorse is prone to them
 
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