Feeling despondent (and jealous)

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BBP

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So my sister has a lovely horse, great temperament, hacks anywhere, kicks everyone's butt at trec. She's had years of angst with him with ddft injuries and foot issues. So she decided to semi retire him and get a youngster, another lovely horse, 5yo, hacks anywhere, great temperament and has just won her second ever full trec competition. (The lovely semi retired horse is also doing brilliantly and has come back to work to win his last few full trec competitions).

Which makes me look at the BBP and all the issues we have, at 12 years old we still can't hack alone, he went into full blown meltdown at his last two competitions and it makes me think it's got to be me. I clearly don't have what it takes to make him a confident, self assured horse. I've had him since he was 3 so for him to still be so lacking in confidence must be my fault. I've probably been too soft or something and he doesn't trust me when I'm on board. If I get off and lead him he will go anywhere with me (albeit still very stressed at times) but it doesn't transfer to on board. It's so frustrating, when we are at home I can ride him with no bridle and he will do a full trec course, sudepass, rein back, canter bending etc all perfectly with no bridle at all. His dressage work is lovely. When we get to a competition and he has to do anything in his own its like he's hardly been sat in sometimes. People must think I bring this untrained lunatic along. They think I'm useless. He's so incredibly talented but his brain isn't right and it must be my fault. No point to this post, I just feel like I've let him down and I don't know what to do about it. (He's currently lame in both front legs which I'm also beating myself up about, feels like we are back to 2 years ago when everything went wrong)
 
I follow your threads and I've always admired him. You've done a great job with him and shown endless patience through all his soundness issues and behavioural weirdness. Not every horse is cut out to deal with travel and showing and stress. Maybe a different person could have got him to a place where he could cope with that, but maybe not. More likely, many riders would have bought him because he's pretty, then got rid of him because he's nuts, and he'd have had a life being passed from pillar to post.

Sometimes you have to accept the limitations of the horse you have. And sometimes that can suck when your friend/sister/barnmate is doing things with their horse that you wish you could do. But focus on everything that's good about him and your relationship with him. From what you've posted here, lots is! I sure can't ride my horse bridleless, not without her falling on her forehand and losing steering. And maybe some time down the line, you will get another horse that does that other job and has quirks of its own which will drive you mad.
 
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Some horses are easier than others. I know training helps masses, but it's true. My current horse I have had since a youngster and he's the easiest thing ever. He loves going out, shows, doing new things. My last horse, that would have been his idea of hell. He would have hated every minute. He liked to be at home, with horses he knew, in places he knew, with people he knew. I am sure a better rider and horsewoman than me could have got him out to shows and boxed off for hacks without getting herself or any innocent bystanders killed. I am not sure he'd ever have enjoyed it though. I am not saying you can't achieve stuff with your lovely BBP, don't misunderstand me, but you can't be comparing yourself to people with nice straightforward horses, that way madness lies, it's just not the same thing.
 
Thank you both. I am very proud of him really, I just wish other people had the opportunity to see how amazing and talented he is. In general I've come to terms with changing my ambitions to match his. He has a brain that is so far removed from any other horse I have ever met that I never know if I'm doing the right thing with him or not. Perhaps I have enabled and made excuses for a lot of behaviour that other people just wouldn't tolerate.. I'm sure a better rider and a different environment could have got him beyond where I have. But most people who have known him say they would have sold him or shot him by now if he was theirs, so perhaps he's not too badly off sticking with me. It's just today that's upset me when her youngster goes straight out and does things without any dramas. I'm happy for her but definitely jealous! Hers are both Connemara crosses so perhaps there is a learning pony here! (Although I'm hoping BBP will make it to 40 like my old girl, in which case I'll be over 60 and definitely ready for an easier life!)
 
Oh I feel your pain! I've had Tinner since he was a five month old weanling (yeah I know, five months...) and he's now eight. He is fab in so many ways, but he doesn't travel, and I have to come to terms with it. All those years when I had a horse that travelled but couldn't afford a towing vehicle and/or a trailer, and now everything is reversed... Sometimes it sucks.
 
BBP will go anywhere and do anything...as long as their is another horse by his side! He doesn't even care who it is usually! He will get in a lorry or trailer with any old horse but is more nervous of travelling alone, he will hack anywhere as long as another horse, or me on foot, is there to help out. Me on my own sitting on top doesn't qualify apparently, which is why I think I'm the problem. Life would be boring if they were all perfect right?!
 
They have varying personalities, same as people do. Don't be so hard on yourself :) We did PC with a girl who had a pb arab, talented jumper but a total stress head, she had to sedate him slightly to hack, but if he didn't hack he was even nuttier. Her next horse was calm, easy going so presumably it was the pony who had the issues, not the rider.
 
Have you worked on yourself at all, if you think you don't give him enough confidence?
Would your sister let you borrow one of her horses to compete a few times? I know just how despondent you can feel if it all you've got to compete is something nutty and unpredictable.....you prepare for the worst every single time!
It's amazing how doing something good just once or twice can make you feel confident again in your abilities!
This time last year I couldn't hack my mare I'd had for 5 years alone, it was like riding a ping pong ball of death, in company wasn't much better. I ended up in a position were I was forced to go alone - started off with a 100m walk off the yard. Short reins, whip and draw reins on so I felt safe...gradually I've built up confidence in myself and my horse to remove stuff, relax and ride on a loose rein. I'd say it's taken guts, and when she has freaked out it's hard to sit still and not grip for my life.
Maybe you need to look at some time training yourself; improve your confidence, belief in yourself and try to find a way to stay relaxed. It's never to late to start - find boundaries, build strict routines and plans that you stick to. Give yourself small simple goals.
 
I've had mine since she was 3 to and she's now 10. She had me off at our first show jumping comp last week as she came up to a filler, reared and I slid off the side. (This was poles on the ground so not as though it was much of an effort). It does feel disappointing when you see someone else get a younger horse and off they go doing everything but I know the amount of work that's gone into my girl.
It is very challenging but so rewarding when you do get it right.
I'm also lucky as I have my Highland and she gives me oodles of confidence and I'll take her about anywhere although 70cm is my comfortable jumping limit.
 
You've had him from 3 till 12 and been his sole carer and trainer in all those years? I think your probably right in your way of thinking.
 
I hear ya KatPT! I have had Stanley since he was roughly 4... first couple of years were amazing - could go anywhere, do anything with him... I couldn't believe my luck. Then began 4 years of soundness issues.....a pattern emerged. He would go lame, I would get the vet. Procedure done followed by lengthy rehab... then Stanley is a nervous/excitable wreck going back out anywhere which in turn makes me nervous. Eventually we overcome and I think things are on the up... then another soundness issue will come up and round we go again! Currently rehabbing following major orthopaedic surgery on his hocks and we are in the phase where he's full of it and I'm nervous... *sigh*.

Thing is, I love the bones of the daft hoss and I know even though at times I think I could just give it all up, I know deep down I'm in this with him forever! But I totally get the jealously thing!
 
I know exactly how frustrated you feel! I have the perfect Trec pony - anywhere except at competition. He goes everywhere, does anything, the only exception being when we are away at competition and his field mate is along. At home they can separate without a problem, and my boy will compete away from home alone or with other horses along. But if the field mate is within shouting distance, he's a complete lunatic. Problem is, until recently my only way of travelling to comps was with said field mate, and even travelling separately, there are so few competitions close by that we most often end up going together.
The one time I went to a Trec comp all by myself, everyone was amazed at how quiet my pony was, when that is really what he is normally like! Of course, I messed it all up by overlooking an obstacle...

In any case, I have come to the conclusion that there is only so much you can achieve with training when it comes to the horse's innate character or temperament. My boy is always a tad insecure and mildly herd bound. He's been well trained so that doesn't usually cause any problems, but if he's stressed beyond his limit (and being away and then getting separated from his mare seems to be the end of the world) he reverts to his innate insecurities. I've also found that while I can train him to e.g. go hacking alone without making a fuss, I cannot actually make him *like* it. He obeys, but he is not enthusiastic about it. And in a way, I can't really blame him, nor would I like him to have a "personality transplant".
But I have been thinking quite seriously about how one would go about testing the horse's temperament if I were to go looking for my next mount, and wanted to find myself a horse that is a bit more brave and independent.
 
supsup said:
In any case, I have come to the conclusion that there is only so much you can achieve with training when it comes to the horse's innate character or temperament. .
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^^ this, for me, too.

My two are polar opposites - I've done all the work myself so if it was all down to training then they should be the same ;)

Kira is one of those horses that gets anxious in different places, she's trained well enough to go and have a try at whatever I've asked her but she won't ever perform as well as she does at home, I suspect. She is who she is. Millie is a bold confident horse naturally, so hasn't ever had the same problems that Kira does when we're away from home.

I totally understand the frustration though, it's kind of magnified for me at the moment as I have one uber capable horse who is a walking disaster area physically, and one more robust horse who is a bit of a troubled child... I just hope to find the middle ground with the next one :o
 
Clearly your sister getting another horse got the first one to buck up its ideas so you need to get something sane to do the same for BBP.

Seriously if he's ok at home then it's his temperament not something you have or have not done.
 
Antw23uk said:
You've had him from 3 till 12 and been his sole carer and trainer in all those years? I think your probably right in your way of thinking.
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That's a bit rude considering the horse is fine at home, but just not fine at competitions. Some horses just can't cope with a competition environment. Can't be her fault if he's fine in some environments.

Youve done a great job with him Kat. As someone else said, others would have bought him because he's pretty and then either sold or shot him because 'he's nuts'. He wasn't nuts though, he had problems and you solved them. Other people wouldnt even have bothered.

For what it's worth i doubt my horse will ever be OK on his own on hacks either. He's freaks out on his own yard of something moves from its normal position, should have seen the tantrum he had just because someone dared to turn a trailer around. Not even while he was there, they had just moved it round from the last time he saw it and that was just not on in his mind. So I think my chances of getting him out in the big scary world alone will never happen when he gets scared of his own yard.

Some horses just aren't easy, and they don't react to the same training style as others, which is why the professionals are usually telling us to be flexible in how you train. What works for one horse doesn't work for others. The way to get my horse to listen is to confuse him further, which doesn't logically make any sense, but it works for him. I wouldnt use that technique on another horse because it wouldn't help. You just have to find what works for your horse, whatever that is.
 
I have a very sweet little coloured charity mare who I had backed last year after taking her on 4 years ago. Handling wise she'd come on leaps and bounds and took to being backed brilliantly, albeit a very forward lively ride. She didn't take so well to hacking though and her liveliness made her a quite interesting hack. Back home she calmed down a lot to school but we struggled with ulcers, query hock issues etc. Trips to vets were very stressful (even when she went with company) so once I successfully treated the ulcers I decided to just keep her as a companion. She's lovely but I would always struggle with her as a ridden horse. I'm sure she would school and potter st home but she would always struggle to go out, however hard I worked at it. I for one admire you for working with this and continuing to try and get your boy more comfortable. I gave up after 12 months - she's very content as a companion but her issues are still there.
 
I believe that good training produces well mannered horses and that owners of nice horses shouldn't have to put up with people telling them they're "lucky". But that doesn't mean that the reverse is always true - you have to work with what you've got, and even with all the training in the world, your horse is what he is. As is mine, and everyone else's.

I beat myself up for years that I never managed to train Fergs to jump convincingly. I thought it was my fault, because I trained him. Because he is physically capable. He isn't mentally capable, though - and I can't control that. I didn't give him the brain he has, and I can't change his basic personality - so I found jobs for him which he does like, and we do those. Now he has a job he isn't physically capable of excelling at, so we do it at the level we can, and I'm happy with that - he is what he is, and I've trained him as well as I can. So that's the best I can do.

Your chap has a complicated brain. You may yet find a way to work with that when you're out and about. You have done at home - but he may just not be capable of working in that environment. You can't control everything - he is an animal, bringing his own history and personality to the table. That isn't your fault. He is what he is. And nobody I've ever known at TREC thinks you're rubbish and you don't train him well...
 
My YO has two horses who both came from the same stud farm. One is 14 or so, one is 9. We also have two younger horses who are from the same stud and are in fact half brothers (one of the youngsters is also a half brother to the older horse but on the other side). They are 6 and 7. All 4 had the same upbringing, were backed fresh off the stud farm, and have been at the same yard with the same management etc for their entire lives.

Of the four:
One of the older ones hacks totally reliably, and the other is reliable only in the sense that he always spends the entire time jogging, kicking, mini-rearing and being generally a pain. Both are/were good eventing horses

Of the two youngsters, one is what I would call anxious and a bit spooky but is very genuine and tries hard to please. He will spook out hacking but gets over himself quickly. He is a very nervous jumper.

The other youngster is very bold but the complete opposite of genuine and if he has a spook or decides he doesn't want to cooperate in the school, he does his utmost to get you off - and he almost always succeeds. He is, however, jumping very well in competition and has a bright future ahead of him

These four horses should be as similar as can be, if it were down only to upbringing and training. They are not, at all. Good training definitely helps and I do think it can fix or diminish a lot of issues. What it cannot do, though, is force a talented horse to be great anymore than a parent can force a talented kid to become a star footballer. It requires so much more things to align than just having the natural talent or aptitude for something :)
 
He had a welsh x PRE brain and had a fair few physical issues to add to that mix so I think you probably need to cut yourself some slack. Would be have ended up better with someone else? Maybe, or he could have just been passed around pillar to post.
 
A friend of mine has a lovely Hanoverian with stunning paces that she got for cheap from a friend of hers who is a semi-pro dressage rider. The dressage rider could get the horse going beatifully at home, but for love nor money could not stop him from having a meltdown at a show. My friend is a capable rider but has zero interest in showing, so she was a good match for the horse.

You know yourself the pros (in any discipline) will move a horse on if it doesn't have the mind for the job they want it to do. The rest of us ammys, or those of us who want to keep a particular horse no matter what because we like it, will modify our expectations to suit the horse.

About twelve or so years ago, I went through a phase of being frustrated and pi$$sed off with myself and my horse because we were making no progress at moving up the dressage levels while other people at my barn were. Now a lot of that was my fault for not riding well enough, some of it was several trainers' faults for trying to make the horse find collection by driving her downwards into the bridle, which works for warmbloods with light front ends but put my Shire cross more on the forehand than she already was (the answer was more classical-type focus on lightness, discovered years later, but nevermind). And some of it was my horse's personality, which is laidback and unhurried. The upside is that she is very forgiving, more inclined to plod along and ignore crappy aids than buck you off, and if she can't do something because you didn't set it up right or she's not ready, she won't, but with no drama. The downside is that she's not got that sharp, puppy-like eager to please attitude you see in a lot of good dressage horses. Takes some work and finesse to convince her that she can be bothered.

I got out of my phase of being frustrated with her by adopting some of her 'could care less' attitude towards dressage, quitting showing, and enjoying her for who she was. Not a dressage specialist, but a great allrounder who can turn her hoof to anything.

There are things about every horse that the best trainer in the world can't change.
 
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This is your RER horse? In that case, definitely cut yourself some slack. Who knows what's going on physically when he gets wound up - he's genetically wired however much training you do. A friend was given a very talented polo horse free of charge because he had RER. To say he is hot would be an understatement. They manage him on dantrolene when he's competing.

My mare with PSSM will always be limited in what she can physically achieve and I know exactly what is like to look at people disappearing off out to enjoy fun rides, dressage etc and not being able to go!
 
I feel your pain too. I have a very talented mare who ive been told could reach the dizzy height of PSG. However we are totally stuck at prelim/novice as it all goes t!ts up when we go out. It just fries her brain ! I am incredibly envious of people whos horses just seem to 'get it'. Tho trying to apply a bit of logic here and put things into perspective, i do also wonder if deal old Facebookland doesnt help. FB is full of successes (sometimes outright bragging) and people (not everyone i might add) often dont post bad things. All we see is winning prizes and peoples successes, which makes us feel like more of a failure. I actually post bad days as much as i do good days, so that people can see it can be a real struggle sometimes !
 
Thanks for your input everyone. Yes he is my little RER horse so when he does get overexcited I think his body makes it hard for him to act rationally. And to be very fair to him I am saying this off the back of just two recent trecs, where despite being very wound up, he still gave all the obstacles a try (and actually scored well at most of them). Most of the time, at fun rides etc he has been an absolute pleasure, so I don't know why I'm being so negative about him today. I hope I didn't suggest my sister is lucky, I said I'm jealous which isn't the same! She does a very nice job training her horses, and selects horses with very good brains, so she deserves to do well with them.

A couple of things have occurred to me. One is that this year is the first year he has gone to any full trec competitions with his field mates, previous years they were broken or not even here, so he paired up with strangers horses. So whilst he is fine leaving his fieldmates when at home, it's clearly more stressful for him when they leave him at a competition and that stress links to his RER. So we will do work on going away to places and working separately from his new best friend (he is in love with sisters new mare). And secondly, I'm wondering if actually this subtle forelimb lameness may have been affecting him for longer than I had realised and possibly there has been underlying pain stress that I hadn't picked up on. Certainly in the past when I sorted out his pain issues he became a much happier more relaxed horse. So that will of course be fully investigated. I'm currently treating deep central sulcus with possible deep thrush(more guilt!) that may be to blame, vet is out on Wednesday to assess.

And whilst Ants reply felt a bit rude on first read, it actually isn't, it's the first thing I would think if someone told me their horse had behavioural issues and that they had trained it from scratch. I can make excuses but I'm almost certain I will have missed a trick somewhere in his training.
 
SEL said:
This is your RER horse? In that case, definitely cut yourself some slack. Who knows what's going on physically when he gets wound up - he's genetically wired however much training you do. A friend was given a very talented polo horse free of charge because he had RER. To say he is hot would be an understatement. They manage him on dantrolene when he's competing.

My mare with PSSM will always be limited in what she can physically achieve and I know exactly what is like to look at people disappearing off out to enjoy fun rides, dressage etc and not being able to go!
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I hadn't thought about dantroline when competing (is it allowed??). If he is consistently a bit wild and vet checks/training don't improve I may ask vet about it.
 
My thug is great at home - will stay in his stable or field alone, hacks out alone, is totally bombproof and generally behaves as a 21 year old should. The second you take him anywhere he turns into a nappy, insecure, clingy baby - if he goes with a friend, he's terrible. If he travels alone he attaches himself to the horse parked next door and is even worse. He's been like it for 12 years. While it bothered me at first, I soon learned he wasn't going to do anything dangerous, he's just generally a tit. While it frustrates me, because I know he can do so much better, his behaviour doesn't frighten me in the slightest. He can only do flatwork now and dressage doesn't make me nervous so I know it's not me causing this behaviour. Some horses are just like that.

Nobody has done more for a horse over the years than you have for BBP. So many people would have given up on him. You've made tremendous progress. As I said to another poster on a different thread, don't compare yourself and BBP to others, compare yourselves to your former selves. There is no doubt he is a happier, healthier pony thanks to you.

Having said that, if your sister has two, what's stopping you? You could hack BBP out with her semi retired horse and have another for competitions :p
 
KatPT said:
I hadn't thought about dantroline when competing (is it allowed??). If he is consistently a bit wild and vet checks/training don't improve I may ask vet about it.
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I suspect not! Actually I think the racehorses can take it up to a certain number of days before a race - it clears the system pretty quickly.

But it might be a way of seeing whether it is his RER or other behaviour.
 
I have a horse who is unable to process new things quickly (rude people would say he is thick!). He needs time to look and understand and process things and I have been through the mill with him in terms of taking him anywhere, doing anything new or "different". His saving grace is that he does learn eventually and the log that was sooo scary last week that he backed into a dyke with me on board is now OK since we went in hand to have a look at it and will be for a while until he forgets he's seen it before.

I have come to the conclusion that it takes ages and repetition for him to be comfortable with anything - if he's not, he has a meltdown. I haven't achieved most of the things I wanted to do when I bought him five years ago but, on the other hand, I am tremendously proud of the many things we have done and that he is generally now a happy, relaxed soul, even if it doesn't take much to tip him over the edge.

What I am trying to say is that I agree with other posters - some horses are just wired oddly and the only way forward is to adapt to their way of thinking (or in the case of mine, not thinking)!
 
KatPT said:
I can make excuses but I'm almost certain I will have missed a trick somewhere in his training.
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No horse has the perfect training history. Nobody gets it right all the time - it's impossible. Even the pros get things wrong (heck, some professional systems are abominable for most horses). Most horses deal with imperfect training. They have to, or nobody would ever be able to ride. I think Ant's reply isn't so much rude as perhaps just a bit naive...
 
KatPT - I share your frustration. You know how bonkers mine can be at TREC. For some reason it's only TREC - SJ & dressage I get compliments on how well behaved he is but it's TREC I like & I know he can do it all. Still my knee is gradually getting better, I have arranged to have a formal introduction to Honey the mule when I can drive again and next year is another season - maybe we could pair with both our bonkers black ponies. Would level 2 wear them out enough to be sensible?
 
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