Feeling guilty

[Pmf27]

Bit of a "what would you do?" Here, because the other day loan pony was a horror.

We hacked out, a route we've done in company plenty of times and a route we have done alone with someone walking once.

She was great for the first half an hour and then decided she was heading for home. No amount of pushing her forward seemed to work.

I have been told in the past that I have a tendency to be too soft with horses, so I have been working on making sure I'm much firmer and this means giving them a good smack with the crop when they're playing up.

When she turned for home, I tried turning her back and she just was not having it at all, so I was literally locked in a tug-of-war with her and the bit. In the past, when she has napped, if I hold her in a circle and give her a good kick with the outside leg she responds and moves forward, nothing of the sort on this occasion.

I then chose to employ the crop and was giving her a sharp crack on the shoulder to stop her turning that way (she always turns the same direction for home), nothing. When I used my leg and she didn't respond, a crack there to reaffirm my leg aid, nothing.

Basically, she'll always turn to her left to go back the way she has come. So, because she is already turning on that side, I try to keep her on the left rein and circle her back around so that she is once again facing the direction I want to go and then I kick her on to move forward. This just was not happening at all, she was resisting the reins completely and it was all getting horribly ugly, where I was yanking to one side and she was yanking to the other. If I let up even a tiny bit she'd pull the rein completely out of my hands and begin trotting to home.

It was as if she wasn't even wearing a bit, because no amount of pulling on it seemed to affect her and I am not a "pull on the reins" kind of rider, but it was all I could do just to stop her from tanking off in the other direction!

I ended up feeling so terribly guilty, because I can't even imagine how painful that must have been on her lips (they were fine, no cuts or anything) but when I spoke to her owner they said that is how they handle the situation as well.

I absolutely did not want to push it, but I didn't want her to associate that particular spot as 'home time' or somewhere she can just throw a paddy and win. So I eventually managed to get her to move forward and turn for home when I gave the command to do so.

Sorry for the essay, but is there anything I did wrong here? It felt far too forceful because it is not my style at all, but when I say that she was dead set on yanking those reins out of my hand and tanking for home I am not exaggerating. On the way back she was absolutely fine and cool as a cucumber, so no pain issue or anything like that.

 

[splashgirl45]

Sometimes it’s better to just sit there and wait it out if they are being nappy. If she goes one particular way turn her the other way and make her face the way you want to go, then sit calmly and count to 20 slowly, then ask her to go the way you want, if no joy repeat the first actions.. and so on until she gets more fed up than you.. you cannot force them you have to get into their minds. It’s not easy and you will need to be patient.. good luck

 

[scats]

It’s horrible when a horse naps and you get stuck in a battle. I have a mare who will answer any resistance by standing up (and she means it!). If I’m not in a situation to sit her out, or she’s being particularly ghastly, I simply hop off, lead her for about 20 yards, and hop back on. This seems to be enough to persuade her to get over herself!

 

[PipsqueakXy22]

I dont think you need to feel guilty at all, you did the best you could in the situation. When a horse is set on going one way its hard to do anything about it, you did well to persevere and get her to move forwards eventually.

 

[Miss_Millie]

So let's break down what happened here...

The horse was napping because he/she didn't feel safe and comfortable on their own with you. Horses are prey animals and it is not natural for them to be away from their herd. It takes a lot of time and patience for a horse to gain the trust and sense of safety with their person, and for this to feel okay to them.

What you did when the horse tried to express their fear, was kick, hit and yank - you physically punished the horse for their 'disobedience'. Is this how you would react to a scared dog? Or to a child?

The horse was not 'throwing a paddy', the horse was above their emotional threshold and did not feel safe with you. Horses have no concept of 'winning', their number one instinct is survival. Napping/spinning/running for home is a survival instinct when a horse feels they are in danger.

You feel bad because you know that you physically forced and punished the horse for not doing what you wanted. If you want to have a genuine and respectful relationship with this horse, go right back to the basics with them.

Start by walking out in hand and see how they feel on the ground. A lot of horses feel safer when you're stood next to them - they can easily forget that you are on their back. Just go a short way if needed, and then loop back before the horse gets overwhelmed. Keep it all really positive so the horse is having a good experience too. They won't want to go out with you if hacking = this is where I get whipped and kicked in the ribs. Once you're able to do a full 'hack' in hand, try doing the same mounted. Just a short way and then back. Or back and forth to the same spot a few times.

If the horse gets nervous or nappy at all, dismount, walk until they seem calmer, and then get back on again. If at any point it is starting to feel like a 'battle', go back home. Once again, you want to build up positive associations only.

Remember that horses trigger stack - if a few scary things happen to them in a row, it could push them over the edge. E.g. a rustle in the hedges followed by a loud engine and let's say the girth is rubbing a bit...then a crisp packet blows across the road, and suddenly you have the horse exploding with anxiety.

Just try to put yourself in her shoes and imagine how she must have felt to be this stressed out. I think a horse really has to trust you to feel safe hacking out alone, and that can takes months, if not years to fine-tune. If this horse is used to being punished by the owner, maybe they also have bad associations and memories of this activity.

I will say this - physical punishment is normalised in the horse world. This is how most people would react to this situation, because it is what we are taught from a young age...but there are other ways, and it is possible to have a genuine relationship and trust with a horse, which is not based on dominance and fear.

My number 1. rule with horses is to set them up for success. That means recognising what their boundaries are and incrementally increasing them within a parameter which means that they are under threshold enough to actually learn from the experience. A fearful, explosive horse will not learn anything, other than that they had a bad time with you. I would go right back to the basics with this mare and make hacking out a fun, chill experience for both of you. Good luck.

 

[stangs]

As a general rule of thumb, when things are 'getting ugly', get off. Regulate your breathing, remind the horse that you're there with them, and reevaulate the situation.

The method you chose to you was forceful, and it achieved nothing, so both you and the horse lost out in this situation.

I didn't want her to associate that particular spot as 'home time' or somewhere she can just throw a paddy and win.

Alternatively, consider what was it about that spot that pushed her over the edge. She's not throwing a paddy; she's expressing anxiety.
.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

What would the owner think if you told them what happened?
If I were you, I would have dismounted and led the horse the way I wanted to go, then at a suitable point re-mounted, or if necessary led the whole way and then maybe have ridden the route again, or ridden the same route tomorrow.

 

[FestiveG]

Just to add, try and have circular, or lollipop routes, so turning round is not the norm

 

[motherof2beasts!]

Hmmm if my loaner did this they’d be gone. When my horse has done this sort of thing I lead from ground and then remount when calm/know their not going back !

 

[Pmf27]

What would the owner think if you told them what happened?
If I were you, I would have dismounted and led the horse the way I wanted to go, then at a suitable point re-mounted, or if necessary led the whole way and then maybe have ridden the route again, or ridden the same route tomorrow.

The owner told me I hadn't been firm enough. I was acting on advice from the owner on how to push through that very situation.

I have also watched the owner ride and they are a lot firmer than I am, hence my mentioning that "I have been told I am too soft".

 

[Pmf27]

Sometimes it’s better to just sit there and wait it out if they are being nappy. If she goes one particular way turn her the other way and make her face the way you want to go, then sit calmly and count to 20 slowly, then ask her to go the way you want, if no joy repeat the first actions.. and so on until she gets more fed up than you.. you cannot force them you have to get into their minds. It’s not easy and you will need to be patient.. good luck

I would have liked to have done that, unfortunately I couldn't even get her to turn to face the way I wanted to go and stop. It was have a fight or tank off :/

 

[Pmf27]

As a general rule of thumb, when things are 'getting ugly', get off. Regulate your breathing, remind the horse that you're there with them, and reevaulate the situation.

The method you chose to you was forceful, and it achieved nothing, so both you and the horse lost out in this situation.


Alternatively, consider what was it about that spot that pushed her over the edge. She's not throwing a paddy; she's expressing anxiety.
.

I have just looked back at my original post and realise I didn't make clear that, unfortunately, getting off was not an option. I'd have had even less control, if she had even stopped long enough for me to dismount.

She was trying to tank off in the direction of home, I could feel that if I let up with the reins she'd be off, so getting off was not something that entered my mind, though is not something I'd ever be against usually.

 

[catembi]

What worked with one of mine was reversing him in the direction I wanted to go in. So we were going in the direction I wanted...but backwards. Every 10 metres or so, I would check whether he wanted to go forwards in the correct direction yet, & if he didn't, we carried on reversing until he did. Might be worth a try & didn't involve being forceful.

 

[Pmf27]

It’s horrible when a horse naps and you get stuck in a battle. I have a mare who will answer any resistance by standing up (and she means it!). If I’m not in a situation to sit her out, or she’s being particularly ghastly, I simply hop off, lead her for about 20 yards, and hop back on. This seems to be enough to persuade her to get over herself!

It sure is! Thank you for the reassurance that I'm not alone in this situation, I know plenty of other people deal with stuff like this but it's always nice to hear their tales of woe haha.

If this happens again and it feels safe to get off, I'll certainly try that. This time it didn't feel that me getting off was a possibility, I think she'd have taken leave completely!

 

[Pmf27]

What worked with one of mine was reversing him in the direction I wanted to go in. So we were going in the direction I wanted...but backwards. Every 10 metres or so, I would check whether he wanted to go forwards in the correct direction yet, & if he didn't, we carried on reversing until he did. Might be worth a try & didn't involve being forceful.

That sounds like a nice thing to try, I'll speak to my instructor about practicing this during a lesson so that I can give it a go out and about!

 

[Pmf27]

Just to add, try and have circular, or lollipop routes, so turning round is not the norm

We're working on that, unfortunately the circular routes are all quite long and we're currently taking it on a 'little by little' basis.

She was fab during our last hack out, so today we did a little longer and then the plan is to do a little longer next time until we can do a full circular route.

 

[Pmf27]

I dont think you need to feel guilty at all, you did the best you could in the situation. When a horse is set on going one way its hard to do anything about it, you did well to persevere and get her to move forwards eventually.

Thank you, that's kind of you to say. I am taking some positives out of the situation, that we had a good half an hour before the napping and that the ride back was also very calm, so not all was lost ?

 

[Gloi]

When there is a pony that naps with some people and not with others the answer is sometimes in the timing. If you react as soon as you feel the slightest bit of backwards thought, rather than waiting to or the full nap they think twice about napping and go on seeming to outside eyes as if nothing happened.

 

[Pmf27]

When there is a pony that naps with some people and not with others the answer is sometimes in the timing. If you react as soon as you feel the slightest bit of backwards thought, rather than waiting to or the full nap they think twice about napping and go on seeming to outside eyes as if nothing happened.

This was something that crossed my mind, actually. I realised too late that I'd missed that first nap and then all hope was lost ??‍

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

We're working on that, unfortunately the circular routes are all quite long and we're currently taking it on a 'little by little' basis.

She was fab during our last hack out, so today we did a little longer and then the plan is to do a little longer next time until we can do a full circular route.

It sounds as if the problem is that she is used to turning round. That is always a mistake imo. Is there no way that you can turn a short route into a lollipop, at least?

 

[Pmf27]

It sounds as if the problem is that she is used to turning round. That is always a mistake imo. Is there no way that you can turn a short route into a lollipop, at least?

Yes, she is definitely used to turning around and, actually, I think she rarely does the long circulars.

I'll ask some of the others on the yard if they can advise me of a suitable route, as I'm not sure where I'd take her for a smaller route that isn't all roadwork.

 

[Pmf27]

So let's break down what happened here...

The horse was napping because he/she didn't feel safe and comfortable on their own with you. Horses are prey animals and it is not natural for them to be away from their herd. It takes a lot of time and patience for a horse to gain the trust and sense of safety with their person, and for this to feel okay to them.

What you did when the horse tried to express their fear, was kick, hit and yank - you physically punished the horse for their 'disobedience'. Is this how you would react to a scared dog? Or to a child?

The horse was not 'throwing a paddy', the horse was above their emotional threshold and did not feel safe with you. Horses have no concept of 'winning', their number one instinct is survival. Napping/spinning/running for home is a survival instinct when a horse feels they are in danger.

You feel bad because you know that you physically forced and punished the horse for not doing what you wanted. If you want to have a genuine and respectful relationship with this horse, go right back to the basics with them.

Start by walking out in hand and see how they feel on the ground. A lot of horses feel safer when you're stood next to them - they can easily forget that you are on their back. Just go a short way if needed, and then loop back before the horse gets overwhelmed. Keep it all really positive so the horse is having a good experience too. They won't want to go out with you if hacking = this is where I get whipped and kicked in the ribs. Once you're able to do a full 'hack' in hand, try doing the same mounted. Just a short way and then back. Or back and forth to the same spot a few times.

If the horse gets nervous or nappy at all, dismount, walk until they seem calmer, and then get back on again. If at any point it is starting to feel like a 'battle', go back home. Once again, you want to build up positive associations only.

Remember that horses trigger stack - if a few scary things happen to them in a row, it could push them over the edge. E.g. a rustle in the hedges followed by a loud engine and let's say the girth is rubbing a bit...then a crisp packet blows across the road, and suddenly you have the horse exploding with anxiety.

Just try to put yourself in her shoes and imagine how she must have felt to be this stressed out. I think a horse really has to trust you to feel safe hacking out alone, and that can takes months, if not years to fine-tune. If this horse is used to being punished by the owner, maybe they also have bad associations and memories of this activity.

I will say this - physical punishment is normalised in the horse world. This is how most people would react to this situation, because it is what we are taught from a young age...but there are other ways, and it is possible to have a genuine relationship and trust with a horse, which is not based on dominance and fear.

My number 1. rule with horses is to set them up for success. That means recognising what their boundaries are and incrementally increasing them within a parameter which means that they are under threshold enough to actually learn from the experience. A fearful, explosive horse will not learn anything, other than that they had a bad time with you. I would go right back to the basics with this mare and make hacking out a fun, chill experience for both of you. Good luck.

I appreciate you taking the time to provide such a comprehensive reply (and for your wish of good luck!) However, would like to make it crystal clear that what happened the other day is not the 'norm', for me as a rider or me and pony as a duo.

We've had some napping issues that we have worked through in the school with our instructor and we have had some napping issues hacking solo, so what I'm doing at the moment is exactly what you have suggested: going back to basics.

I have only just started hacking her out solo again and, truth be told, none of the routes we have done so far have been proper 'hacks' as we have always been within spitting distance of home.

I've been sure to pick routes that I know she is familiar with, that we have ridden together in company and that are close by. We're doing a 'little by little' approach, whereby I'm trying to build up to longer hacks, but taking her out just a little longer each time.

Before I started doing this, I was taking her out for walks in hand and building up her trust with me. Our last hack was such a huge success, she was fab! And confidently strode to an area that she has previously been very nappy, the other day (on the hack in question) she not only approached that spot but passed it very happily and with absolutely no trouble at all, so I felt it was all going well.

It was a case of "she was absolutely golden, until she wasn't" and there seemed to be no trigger. The reason that I mention this is because, in all the years I've been riding, I've been told that if there is nothing that the horse has actually got to be scared of, we must push them past it in order for this not to become 'a thing'.

I appreciate what you're saying about horses having no concept of "winning", but what I meant by that was that horses know to associate certain locations with certain things. They'll get lively in a particular spot if that is where they are always cantered, they may nap more towards a gate or a corner of the school if that is where they are always dismounted, etc.

So, in this case, I was conscious that if I let her decide to charge off home without challenging the behaviour, she would associate either 1) this is a spot we can end the hack or 2) if I nap, I'll be able to go home. Both of those are things I'd like to avoid and, through Googling and asking others for advice, is something that seems to be the general consensus.

I'm also acting on advice of her owner, who time and again tells me that I must be firm with her because she has a tendency to "take advantage". If I got it wrong on this occasion then I'm happy to try something else, but I did just want to make it very clear that "punishing" an animal is never, ever my intention.

 

[AntiPuck]

I have a horse who reacts to fear by planting (and then running in the other direction).

I have had some success with her by doing lots of in-hand walks on small, circular routes so that she gets to know the area a bit, and by taking along treats and feeding them at regular intervals so that she has something positive to focus on and look forward to.

I try to differentiate between what i'd call 'mini' plants, where she isn't really stopping, she's just statically spooking at something and unsure about what to do next - these can be ridden through lightly with no arguing at all - and full-on feet stuck, immovable plants, where it's better to get off, reassure, and lead, because no amount of riding will convince her forward, she's shut-off by that point.

Apart from the above, I have found it absolutely crucial to have good timing- you must stop asking for forward as soon as the horse even leans to take a step, otherwise you're punishing them for doing what you've asked, and if they're thinking 'backwards' already, you'll shut them down. I realised that I was nagging and making the situation worse, initially - always wanting more 'forward'. Lots of people nag with their legs without realising it and it's a fast way to switch a horse like this off. Someone else above suggested using leg at the first hint of stopping, but that just makes mine plant faster if she's already in that frame of mind - I let her stop, then ask her to go again, and then the stops will get fewer and fewer, or shorter and shorter, as she gets more confident.

She now marches out at pace on some of these routes that she'd constantly stop on before, with no hint of planting (not all routes, but we're getting there!).

I think that there is a lot of trial-and-error needed with planting/napping horses (as well as patience) - things that others suggested like circling, backing up, side-to-side, etc. did not work with mine - only repetition of small, circular routes (in-hand, then ridden), rewarding small efforts, quitting nagging, getting off before it becomes a stand-off, and counting to 50 (or 500!) when needed.

 

[Pmf27]

I have a horse who reacts to fear by planting (and then running in the other direction).

I have had some success with her by doing lots of in-hand walks on small, circular routes so that she gets to know the area a bit, and by taking along treats and feeding them at regular intervals so that she has something positive to focus on and look forward to.

I try to differentiate between what i'd call 'mini' plants, where she isn't really stopping, she's just statically spooking at something and unsure about what to do next - these can be ridden through lightly with no arguing at all - and full-on feet stuck, immovable plants, where it's better to get off, reassure, and lead, because no amount of riding will convince her forward, she's shut-off by that point.

Apart from the above, I have found it absolutely crucial to have good timing- you must stop asking for forward as soon as the horse even leans to take a step, otherwise you're punishing them for doing what you've asked, and if they're thinking 'backwards' already, you'll shut them down. I realised that I was nagging and making the situation worse, initially - always wanting more 'forward'. Lots of people nag with their legs without realising it and it's a fast way to switch a horse like this off. Someone else above suggested using leg at the first hint of stopping, but that just makes mine plant faster if she's already in that frame of mind - I let her stop, then ask her to go again, and then the stops will get fewer and fewer, or shorter and shorter, as she gets more confident.

I also think that there is a lot of trial-and-error needed with planting/napping horses (as well as patience) - things that others suggested like circling, backing up, side-to-side, etc. did not work with mine - only repetition of small, circular routes (in-hand, then ridden), rewarding small efforts, quitting nagging, getting off before it becomes a stand-off, and counting to 50 when needed.

Thank you for this, it's given me some food for thought. A good point about no longer asking for forward when they make a move in the right direction, I'd not considered this.

I'll be more atuned to the tiny details next time, instead of fretting over the situation as a whole.

 

[Lintel]

When there is a pony that naps with some people and not with others the answer is sometimes in the timing. If you react as soon as you feel the slightest bit of backwards thought, rather than waiting to or the full nap they think twice about napping and go on seeming to outside eyes as if nothing happened.

Couldn't agree more! I used to hack a serial napper.. and there were some suttle signs that the nap was coming and a sharp kick on/trot to boost that thought out of their mind seemed to do the trick!
Well done though OP it sounds like given the situation you handled it the best way you could, life is full of learning... and stubborn horses!!

 

[AntiPuck]

Thank you for this, it's given me some food for thought. A good point about no longer asking for forward when they make a move in the right direction, I'd not considered this.

I'll be more atuned to the tiny details next time, instead of fretting over the situation as a whole.

Absolutely - so easy to sit there getting very upset with this type of behaviour, but the small successes do add up quickly when you lower your expectations a bit - easier said than done when you're in the middle of it!

Best of luck figuring out what works for yours

 

[Pmf27]

Couldn't agree more! I used to hack a serial napper.. and there were some suttle signs that the nap was coming and a sharp kick on/trot to boost that thought out of their mind seemed to do the trick!
Well done though OP it sounds like given the situation you handled it the best way you could, life is full of learning... and stubborn horses!!

Thank you, I appreciate that! It certainly is, I've been riding for years but this is my first long-term loan, so the learning has been coming thick and fast haha

 

[Pmf27]

Absolutely - so easy to sit there getting very upset with this type of behaviour, but the small successes do add up quickly when you lower your expectations a bit - easier said then done when you're in the middle of it!

Best of luck figuring out what works for yours

Thanks so much!

 

[Miss_Millie]

I appreciate you taking the time to provide such a comprehensive reply (and for your wish of good luck!) However, would like to make it crystal clear that what happened the other day is not the 'norm', for me as a rider or me and pony as a duo.

We've had some napping issues that we have worked through in the school with our instructor and we have had some napping issues hacking solo, so what I'm doing at the moment is exactly what you have suggested: going back to basics.

I have only just started hacking her out solo again and, truth be told, none of the routes we have done so far have been proper 'hacks' as we have always been within spitting distance of home.

I've been sure to pick routes that I know she is familiar with, that we have ridden together in company and that are close by. We're doing a 'little by little' approach, whereby I'm trying to build up to longer hacks, but taking her out just a little longer each time.

Before I started doing this, I was taking her out for walks in hand and building up her trust with me. Our last hack was such a huge success, she was fab! And confidently strode to an area that she has previously been very nappy, the other day (on the hack in question) she not only approached that spot but passed it very happily and with absolutely no trouble at all, so I felt it was all going well.

It was a case of "she was absolutely golden, until she wasn't" and there seemed to be no trigger. The reason that I mention this is because, in all the years I've been riding, I've been told that if there is nothing that the horse has actually got to be scared of, we must push them past it in order for this not to become 'a thing'.

I appreciate what you're saying about horses having no concept of "winning", but what I meant by that was that horses know to associate certain locations with certain things. They'll get lively in a particular spot if that is where they are always cantered, they may nap more towards a gate or a corner of the school if that is where they are always dismounted, etc.

So, in this case, I was conscious that if I let her decide to charge off home without challenging the behaviour, she would associate either 1) this is a spot we can end the hack or 2) if I nap, I'll be able to go home. Both of those are things I'd like to avoid and, through Googling and asking others for advice, is something that seems to be the general consensus.

I'm also acting on advice of her owner, who time and again tells me that I must be firm with her because she has a tendency to "take advantage". If I got it wrong on this occasion then I'm happy to try something else, but I did just want to make it very clear that "punishing" an animal is never, ever my intention.

I think it's great that you have been building up her confidence slowly. But take this behaviour from the horse as information that for whatever reason, she did not feel comfortable with what was being asked of her today. Maybe she was trigger stacked, maybe she was in season, maybe she saw something threatening in the distance that you missed. Horses are scientifically incapable of being 'naughty' - there is always a legitimate reason for behaviour.

'Pushing a horse past it' can be a form of punishment. If the horse is very scared and you escalate pressure using your legs, whip etc, and the horse finally moves forward, it may only be because your energy is more scary to them than the thing which made them nap in the first place. A lot of people do use this 'technique' to train horses to hack out alone, my ultimately it leads to an emotionally volatile horse, who could explode at any moment.

It's true that horses can associate certain locations with certain things, and as above, you want those associations to be as positive as possible. This might mean turning around and going back for a bit, before doing a U-turn and heading away from the yard again. Or as others have said, getting off and leading for a bit. The main thing is to make it all as positive as possible. If you try to force a horse to move forward in a sticky spot, their memory of that spot might become 'the spot in which I get whipped and kicked'. Which will certainly cause the horse to freeze up and panic.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't challenge the behaviour, but it should be a two way conversation rather than a dictatorship. Your horse says 'I'm scared and want to go back', you might say 'Okay, let's go back until we get to that tree, then I'll get off and lead you where I want us to go on the ground'.

Unfortunately, the horse's owner is projecting anthropomorphic traits onto her mare. Horses do not have a frontal lobe of the brain which means they cannot reason or plan to be naughty. The idea of a naughty horse goes against basic biology. I understand the pressure this must make you feel though, especially if the horse's owner is very heavy handed with her. I would not be able to share/part loan a horse with someone who had a very different mindset to me in this way. And I appreciate the struggle, because like I said, hitting horses is extremely normalised.

I'm not sure what else to suggest, but I would like to say that I think it's very positive you started this thread. The way you handled the situation felt off to you and you wanted to know if there is another way. As above, I think that trust between human and equine is a huge element of horsemanship, and one you can't really train or manufacture. It has to come with time, and small steps, like any genuine friendship.

 

[Andrew657]

One thing I have found effective with a horse refused to go forward from the leg - is a clear voice aid.